Current Squad vs 2004/05

Sir A1ex

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Massive apologies if this has been done before, but the question came up in another thread of how our current squad, well known to be heavily lacking in several areas, compares to the famously bad 2004/05 squad.

So I've had a run through player vs player. I've tried to match up players as well as possible by position and the amount they play, though it's not always possible. That 2004 team was just full of dodgy midfielders and utility players. Obviously you could rig the result by who you pair up, so I've tried my best to pair as honestly as possible.

Anyway, I make it a 7-3 victory to Moyes' Boys. I've tried to explain the confused workings of my mind for each one... All opinions welcome!


Howard < David de Gea
No Brainer.

Carroll = Anders Lindegaard
Irrelevant, don't care.

G Neville = Rafael
Neville was the greater player over his career, but he's 30 at this point, whereas Rafael is 23, and I'd expect him to go on to become the better player.

P Neville < Phil Jones
People called Phil clearly rock, but they don't know their best position. But only one of them has three major religions devoted to him.

Heinze = Patrice Evra
Would love to give this to the better player, and better man, but the fact that his time is pretty much up, whereas cnut was about 25 at the time and looked set for greatness.

Silvestre < Chris Smalling
Full-back or centre-back? Who knows… but I reckon Smalling looks the better player.

Ferdinand > Nemanja Vidić
Rio was coming into his prime here, today's Vidic can't compete.

Brown = Jonny Evans
I'd say I hold Jonny in very similar regard to how I thought of Brown at this point.

Smith < Marouane Fellaini
Take a very succesful bruiser of a forward, and try and make him the new Roy Keane. What could possibly go wrong? I'll give Fellaini the benefit of the doubt - I'd still take him given the choice.

Kleberson < Anderson
There's a song to tell us the answer to this… and it's still true, just about.

Fletcher = Darren Fletcher
Young, unconcing Flecther vs legendary but unknown fitness Fletcher? Let's call it a draw.

Keane = Michael Carrick
A year or two earlier and it's no contest, but this was Keane right at the end of his time.
Carrick's no spring chicken, but we should get a couple more years out of him.

Giggs > Antonio Valencia
Another easy one.

Scholes > Tom Cleverley
Yawn.

Ronaldo = Adnan Januzaj
If anything, Adnan is showing more end product at an earlier age. But Ronaldo was turning 20 and starting to look the real deal.

Rooney = Wayne Rooney
A bit like the Fletch one this - Youthful phenomenon vs one-man-team. Maybe should go to the 2004 one, given the future and potential, but that would seem odd given how good he is now.

Saha = Danny Welbeck
Tempted to give this to Danny, but Saha was also quite a player and we had very high hopes for him at this point.

van Nistelrooy = Robin van Persie
Two ageing Dutch goalscoring legends… call it a draw.

Solskjaer = Javier Hernández
The little pea very nearly gets this on age… but he's nowhere near the legend Ole is, and it's far from certain he'll stay with us anyway.

Forlan < Shinji Kagawa
Different styles, but similar standing - fan's favourites, had a season or two without ever quite producing. But Diego's time was about up by this point, whereas Shinki will probably get a bit longer.

Djemba x2 < Nani
Total mis-match of positions, but they were kind of left over. No doubt who is better.

O'Shea = Ryan Giggs
Hardly like-for-like, but they probably contribute a similar amount as bit-part players.

Fortune = Ashley Young
Again, not the same role, but we just seemed to stock up on utility players instead of proper wingers in 2004. Young isn't a proper winger, mind, so I can't give it to him.
 
Your ratings seem a little skewed towards the current team.

Wellbeck as good as Saha?
 
Sadly our 2004/05 squad had more class & potential. A prime Rio, Scholes and Giggs still world class, having the two best young players in the world, one of which turned into an all-time great and the small matter of having Ferguson.
 
Ixion said:
Your ratings seem a little skewed towards the current team.

Wellbeck as good as Saha?
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Saha was always injured. Always. At least Welbeck plays. Saha, when he was fit for that brief period (start of 07 season?) was very good. But he never played.

The squad's better now. It was properly poor then, and seeing it laid out in front of you like that makes you realise it. This squad certainly isn't full of world beaters, but there's a title-winning side there. In 2005 it was anything but. Once the confidence returns to these players and we possibly add another couple of signings we'll be fine. People seem to be forgetting that there's a lot of young players in there. 2005 was made up of ageing players. Keane, Giggs, the Nevilles, Solkjaer etc were all getting older. Now we've got Vidic, Rio, Evra etc getting older but on the whole, there's replacements lined up. This is a short term problem.
 
Thisistheone said:
Sadly our 2004/05 squad had more class & potential. A prime Rio, Scholes and Giggs still world class, having the two best young players in the world, one of which turned into an all-time great and the small matter of having Ferguson.
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There's no doubt that those three beat anything we've got now, but there was some real dross as well.

I honestly think that where ronaldo was in 2004 is no better than where Adnan is now. To qualify that, the odds are very much against him going on to be as good as Ronaldo, but we didn't know that then.

I'm deliberately leaving managers out of this, for obvious reasons. Players only.
 
As an outsider...the 3 ratings I disagree most are Smalling (really don't rate him at all) so I'd give it to Silvestre....and Ronaldo vs Adjan.....and lastly I'd give it to Saha not Welbeck.
 
04/05 wasn't great but it was clearly just a team lacking that extra spark to become top class again, we had to go buy Carrick, Evra and Vidic and let the talented players mature and the senior players hit form again (Giggs, Scholes).

I'm far from convinced our current problems could be rectified that easily.
 
Cina said:
04/05 wasn't great but it was clearly just a team lacking that extra spark to become top class again, we had to go buy Carrick, Evra and Vidic and let the talented players mature and the senior players hit form again (Giggs, Scholes).

I'm far from convinced our current problems could be rectified that easily.
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What would rectify the current problems re: players?
 
roseguy64 said:
What would rectify the current problems re: players?
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Heh, frankly we've no idea if players are the real solution here, do we?

Anyway, I reckon there are around 5-6 who need to retire/go, and you'd be looking at a very chunky amount of spending to bring in 3-4 top players in positions we are desperately in need of them in.
 
Cina said:
04/05 wasn't great but it was clearly just a team lacking that extra spark to become top class again, we had to go buy Carrick, Evra and Vidic and let the talented players mature and the senior players hit form again (Giggs, Scholes).

I'm far from convinced our current problems could be rectified that easily.
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What he said...Chelsea changed the game completely. If Roman hadn't have bought them, God only knows what we could have won that season and the following
 
Coxy said:
As an outsider...the 3 ratings I disagree most are Smalling (really don't rate him at all) so I'd give it to Silvestre....and Ronaldo vs Adjan.....and lastly I'd give it to Saha not Welbeck.
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Fair enough. Ronaldo you're undoubtedly right with Hindsight, but I think the only fair comparison is on ealistic expectations at the time... and I think they're as high for Adnan as they were for Ronnie.

In the same vein, we knew what we had in Silvestre and Saha, and I think most United fans remain optimisitic that Smalling and Welbeck will be better... far from guaranteed though, admitedly.
 
Some points:

Scholes and Giggs were nothing like the players in 04/05 that they were 2 years later, in my opinion. Doesn't change the comparisons but it's worth considering.
Carrick last season was better than that Keane I think.
04/05 was Ferdinand's worst ever season for us.
This Evans is probably better than that Brown, who from memory only really came to life again when he was partnered with Ferdinand for the second half of 05/06.
Heinze was probably better than Evra if you compare the respective forms, unfortunately.
This Januzaj is better and more rounded than that Ronaldo, who was less mature and more frustrating.
I think Saha, despte injury, was a superior player to Welbeck.
This Rooney is more consistent and influential - it was next year that Rooney consistently looked like one of the world's best players.

It's difficult to talk in terms of potential, because we might look back in a few year's time at this team and say that the ingredients were there all along just as they were with Ferdinand, Rooney and Ronaldo. Rafael, De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Januzaj and Welbeck for example is a pretty impressive set of players in terms of their ceiling. Can't really bank on any of them reaching Ferdinand/Ronaldo level, but there's a good chance a group of them will be top drawer. Rafael last season was already as good as Neville in his prime (which for me was around 2005, 2006), so we're in safe hands there I think.

*Must add that, despite this, I think the way that team in 2006 emerged was surprising in that about 10 things came together all at once. It was almost unprecedented in terms of the way that so many poorer performers turned good, older players returned to form, other players became world class, etc all at once.

This team compares well in terms of potential, but there are different (probably worse) problems, and I don't know whether that sort of clicking is as likely.
 
Cina said:
04/05 wasn't great but it was clearly just a team lacking that extra spark to become top class again, we had to go buy Carrick, Evra and Vidic and let the talented players mature and the senior players hit form again (Giggs, Scholes).

I'm far from convinced our current problems could be rectified that easily.
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The likes of Carrick, Evra and Vidic along with Van Der Saar did not offer the extra spark, but they took the team to the next level. Back then Fergie's signings the likes of Heinze, Smith, Kleberson, Djemba, Bellion, Howard turned out as big flops, Rio losing his way and clueless and United were badly in need of players to shore the team up.
 
I was thinking of comparing the current team to our last CL winning team. Clearly its not even close, with the current team lacking top quality except for RVP and Rooney.
 
This squad is far superior. The earlier squad's only saving grace is the midfield, which still boasted Scholes, Giggs and a young, inconsistent Ronaldo.

Our current goalkeeper, defenders and strikers are significantly better with a hell of a lot more potential. Plus, in Adnan we have our young Ronaldo, if not a slightly more mature version. This squad needs the Giggs and Scholes, but we all know that. Forums and pubs across the world all know that.
 
Sir A1ex said:
There's no doubt that those three beat anything we've got now, but there was some real dross as well.

I honestly think that where ronaldo was in 2004 is no better than where Adnan is now. To qualify that, the odds are very much against him going on to be as good as Ronaldo, but we didn't know that then.

I'm deliberately leaving managers out of this, for obvious reasons. Players only.
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Definitely. We had a load of shite on our hands back then but just looking at the 1st XI as that's our biggest weakness right now imo, our squad is good but we lack enough world class, or top class players:

----------------------------De Gea/Howard
Rafael/Neville------Vidic/Rio--------Evans/Silvestre------Evra/Heinz
Valencia/Ronaldo--Carrick/Keane--Cleverley/Scholes--Young, Kag, Adnan/Giggs
-----------van Persie/van Nistelrooy----Rooney/Rooney

Neville trumps Rafael. He was Mr. reliable, 600 plus appearances for the club, under-rated going forward. Rafael misses too many games with injury.

Arguably its 5-2 to the 2005 squad. But the biggest problem comes in the difference between say, Cleverley and Scholes. Thats such a massive gulf. While De Gea trumps Howard, soon Van Der Sar came in. Evans trumps Silvestre but its not a big gap in quality and soon Vidic came in. The difference in our left wing, Young to the 2005 Giggs is also an incredible gulf in class.

Replacing centre backs or a left back is fairly easy compared to replacing the likes of Scholes and Giggs. We'd have to spend some insane money to bring in a Fabregas or Bale. These are the kind of players comparable to Scholes and Giggs.

There's a distinct lack of World Class players in our current side. Only Rooney & RvP, with De Gea well on his way to being one.

The squad is good though. But to be a bit pessimistic, we probably need 4 or 5 new signings to make us CL contenders again, in an age of super squads like Bayern, Barca, Real, City, Chelsea, PSG, Juventus, maybe even Monaco and a Russian club soon where these clubs seem to be aiming for an elite squad of about 18-20 players.
 
Thisistheone said:
Neville trumps Rafael. He was Mr. reliable, 600 plus appearances for the club, under-rated going forward.
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This is where it's hard to judge... a 30 year-old Neville vs a 23 year-old Rafael.

If it was to play a match tomorrow, you'd chose Neville. But if it was a choice of signing one or the other you'd have to chose Rafael.
 
I think that the current squad is so much better than the squad of 2004-2005. Except the midfield, this squad is better in all other departments IMO. And it has more depth.
 
I was thinking of making a similar thread. Couldn't be bothered though.

What about are rivals? Arsenal are weaker? Chelsea are weaker. Liverpool are weaker? Everton are stronger (they came 4th!)? Man City are STRONGER? Spurs are stronger.

Tough calls many of them, I'm only sure about two.
 
Dwazza Van Porschie said:
This. It isn't remotely close, even with Saha being made of glass.
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Again, it's like the Neville - Rafael question.

For a one off match, I'd take a 27 year-old Saha, presuming he was fit. But I'd sign Welbeck, because of both his potential, and the fact he is normally available to play football due to not being made of glass.
 
That Saha > This Welbeck. That's not even disputable atm IMO.

Welbeck will possibly go on to be the better player with the better career etc.

Other then that, seems alright.
 
Two parts to this:


Howard; G. Neville, Ferdinand, Brown, Heinze; Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Ronaldo; Rooney, van Nistelrooy

vs.

De Gea; Rafael, Evans, Vidic, Evra; Januzaj, Carrick, Jones, Valencia; Rooney, van Persie
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IMO, the 2004/2005 first eleven is much better.


Carroll; P. Neville, Silvestre, O'Shea, Fortune; Fletcher, Kleberson, Miller; Smith, Saha, Bellion (with Djemba-Djemba, Richardson, Spector on the bench)

vs.

Lindegaard; Fabio, Smalling, Ferdinand, Buttner; Kagawa, Cleverley, Fellaini, Nani; Welbeck, Hernandez (with Giggs, Fletcher, Anderson, Zaha on the bench)
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Here, I would say that our current second string wins quite easily. Moreover, our options on the "bench" are also much, much better.

BTW, according to Wikipedia, Forlan, Rossi and Pique barely played in 2004/2005.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004–05_Manchester_United_F.C._season
 
That 04/05 XI really does look a lot better than it actually was, though. Looking at names, it's fantastic, but it doesn't tell the full story at all.
 
Revan said:
I think that the current squad is so much better than the squad of 2004-2005. Except the midfield, this squad is better in all other departments IMO. And it has more depth.
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Yep. It's not even close. This squad is quality. That one was alright.
 
Comparing player by player (only the first eleven)

Howard < De Gea

Neville = Rafael
Ferdinand > Vidic
Silvestre < Evans
Heinze >= Evra

Keane <= Carrick
Scholes >>> Cleverley
Ronaldo = Januzaj
Giggs > Valencia

Rooney < Rooney
RVN = RVP

If we look into bench, I think that

Brown, Neville, O'Shea, Fortune < Ferdinand, Smalling, Jones, Fabio, Buttner
Kleberson, Miller, Smith, Djemba Djemba, Richardson <<< Anderson, Giggs, Fellaini, Nani, Young, Kagawa, Zaha
Saha, Bellion <<< Chicharito, Welbeck

First team marginally better on 2004-2005. The entire squad miles better now.
 
Revan said:
I think that the current squad is so much better than the squad of 2004-2005. Except the midfield, this squad is better in all other departments IMO. And it has more depth.
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Based on? Just saying it doesn't make it so, and all the side by side comparisons are pointing towards the 04-05 side being better.

Edit: Just saw your post.
 
adexkola said:
Based on? Just saying it doesn't make it so, and all the side by side comparisons are pointing towards the 04-05 side being better.
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Based on my opinion, what on essentially the same squad did last year and on the above posted I made a player by player comparison.

Our defense is stronger now, Ronaldo and Rooney weren't that good (especially Ronaldo) and our only threat was essentially Van Nistelrooy. Bench was terrible.
 
If the question is which squad is better now then I'd say this one. If the question is which squad is better to build from, then it's undoubtedly 04/05. It has Ronaldo, Rooney, Ferdinand and Fletcher who go on to become top players, and it has Giggs and Scholes who carry on at the top level for quite a while.
 
Just the fact that the 04/05 team had both Ronaldo and Rooney on the cusp of being great players makes 04/05 more appealing.
 
Mickeza said:
If the question is which squad is better now then I'd say this one. If the question is which squad is better to build from, then it's undoubtedly 04/05. It has Ronaldo, Rooney, Ferdinand and Fletcher who go on to become top players, and it has Giggs and Scholes who carry on at the top level for quite a while.
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Agree with this. Think this time around we're going to have to spend some serious money to get to where that 2005 side eventually peaked. Doesn't help Moyes that Scholes and Giggs were free. Or that Ronaldo and Rooney were bought for a relatively low fee (less so with Rooney. But if you were offered the new Wayne Rooney now for £20m, you'd jump at the chance.) Now, to get players of that calibre in will cost us God knows what.
 
Much prefer the Rooney of old, even if he was so young at that time he was more exciting to watch and looked more of a special impact player. He gets rave reviews lately but he does so much to frustrate as well, sloppy passing, never shoots, always looking for others when he should be shooting or charging at goal. He looks good at times because our midfield is weak but There were several years I reckon he was better than the 28 year old Rooney we have now.

As per the OP, the squad is better now, has to be but then so is everyone else's in the main, more money. Doesn't matter if you have Ronaldo or Rooney or Van Nistelrooy, the other squad players like Smith, O'shea, Kleberson were dodgy and highlight the past strength of the lineup to now. Trouble is, we have Moyes now not SAF!!
 
Smith was a striker in 04/05, rarely used in midfield. It was the following summer when SAF failed to sign a Keane successor that he switched Smith.

The OP also left off Bellion, Djemba, and Miller, three all-time greats from that 04/05 side.
 
Don't know how you get such a clear victory for the current team. The back 4 was better in 04/05. Much more consistent than the current lot. Giggs > Valencia and Scholes > Cleverley doesn't tell the whole story with just the one arrow. A midfield of Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Ronaldo is better than the Januzaj-Cleverley-Carrick-Valencia midfield. You've got the attack as equal. So that's an equally good attack with a better midfield and defense back in '04. Only the goalkeeper is better in the current team. Depth is equally average.
 
People are under rating the current squad, its just form, we won the PL last season, that 04/05 team was in form, which is ultimately how you will remember the player that year...
 
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