Current opinions on Herrera

[dichinero]

Yep I remember the very same game and I think that's what people are forgetting all too quickly. I agree that currently he looks a million miles from that player, but that Herrera was one of the most dynamic midfielders Utd have had for 10 years. I distinctly remember him taking a high ball out of the air with a cruyf turn and thinking, now that is what we have been missing. I can't help but feel now that we need that player back but unfortunately we don't have a chance while LVG is at the helm

Typical United fans with short memory. Quickly we have forgotten how he was criminally underplayed last season yet he popped up with more goals than many expected and he was influential to many good performances. I really feel sorry for the guys because he better than we give him credit for, having watched him at Zara and Bilbao. Herrera is the ONLY dynamic CM in our squad. He the only balanced player physically and technically. We've also forgotten that he relatively young for a CM and he is barely played enough games that the avergae CM would play in the 2 years he has been here. The thing that stands against Herrera is LvGs tactics.

Herrera is one of those incisive players that play on intuition and not the methodical type that LvG prefers. We are crying for a higher tempo in our games and that is Herrera's style unfortunately as far as LvG is concerned. I say unfortunate because such players that player by intuition tend to try to be creative and risky, which means a higher percentage of errors which LvG abhors.

Herrera in an LvG team is like chalk and cheese, and the only way he survives is by unlearning what he knows to know a new way, surely we can all appreciate that that takes time and requires patience. Herrera is a really good player and I'm happy to have him at United but I accept that under LvG a compromise has to be made on his style. We should not forget that in the "4 game run" that has been solely accredited to the almighty Fellaini's majestic footballing brilliance was also a product of Herrera's run in the team where I thought he was more influential that lord Fellaini.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Fine post, @finneh.

I just don't get the skepticism over Herrera here expressed by some. No one is arguing that Herrera is the next Scholes or Keane, but he does bring very decent passing and bite to the table. Whether in a midfield two or on the right side of a 433, Herrera is fantastic midfielder who's already proven to be one of our better players.

The problem with Herrera, if there is one at all, is that he's not as dominant a midfielder as we'd like. There are midfielders out there who could offer us more than Herrera attacking and defending and we'll definitely want to take a look at those midfielders this summer of next. It's evident now that LVG doesn't fancy Herrera that much, despite the obvious evidence that he's made a significant positive difference when he's played, at least when fit and in form. LVG famously remarked how he prefers taller players (that's what gets Fellaini all those starts, one supposes) and while Herrera isn't a short player, he's not that tall either (officially at 6'0" I believe).

When he gets a run of games and the rest of the squad is playing decent football Herrera helps make the squad tick.

I don't understand how it is evident van Gaal doesn't like Ander and Fellaini is "getting all those starts" when Ander has played more than Fellaini. When did van Gaal say he prefers taller players? Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlin are hardly taller anyway and Mata certainly isn't. I'd say his often complete lack of positional discipline is why he isn't favoured deeper instead of his height.

I was at the game at the Rose Bowl when Herrera made his debut for United. And while I acknowledge that it was pre-season against an MLS team Herrera was sensational, cutting LA Galaxy to ribbons like Scholes dicing up Everton. I mean Anthony Martial sensational.

And he actually started the season proper quite well. But Louis eventually imposed the philosophy in mid-season after the Leicester City match (not long after which we started to turn to shit) and he and the squad haven't been the same since.

What Leicester match, the one we lost? Hardly mid-season it was out 5/6th match. Most of Ander's best play came later in the season anyway when he was partnered with Fellaini and Carrick in a 3.

 

[pacifictheme]

I didn't mean all five games were difficult... I meant as a group it's a difficult 5 games. Ie that it wasn't a case if him fortunately playing 5 relegation fodder teams and that padding his stats. Are you suggesting a 100% record whilst we were playing our best football under Van Gaal isn't something to be looked at as a positive?

Also care to comment on his productivity last year?

10 goals or assists in 26 games is ok but not great, but lets look at those stats. His goals were against Yeovil, qpr, preston, leicester who were shit last season and two against villa, who were also shit. So no stats padding there then (just every goal he scored). If it was rooney we were discussing everyone would discount goals against shit teams, so i see no reason to make an exception here.

That was a great mini period but it doesn't mean he should be a starter now.

Hes been poor this season and is very hit and miss, mostly miss. I can't think of a single game since hes been with us where hes really grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and run the show. He doesn't have much composure or positional awareness and tends to be a bit headless chicken when defending, and he hasn't the ability to control a game either. Hes a likeable chap but not good enough to be a starter for a club with ambition to win the league.

 

[Member 5225]

hmm decent squad player. Does nothing exceptional.....as expected when we bought him tbh.

 

[Wibble]

He doesn't fit into the current formation.

He isn't a #10, and he isn't a #6 for the double pivot. If we played 4-3-3 he'd be brilliant as one of the #8s.

In the mean time, I'd have him starting next to Carrick depending on opposition, harder opposition Morgan, weaker sides Herrera.

WTF is it with these stupid new terms? Pivot? On planet Earth we call it 2 defensive midfielders.

Not having a go at you though. I blame the Forrest Gump IQ of most football commentators and the rise of formation stupidity associated with football vide games.

 

[dichinero]

10 goals or assists in 26 games is ok but not great, but lets look at those stats. His goals were against Yeovil, qpr, preston, leicester who were shit last season and two against villa, who were also shit. So no stats padding there then (just every goal he scored). If it was rooney we were discussing everyone would discount goals against shit teams, so i see no reason to make an exception here.

That was a great mini period but it doesn't mean he should be a starter now.

Hes been poor this season and is very hit and miss, mostly miss. I can't think of a single game since hes been with us where hes really grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and run the show. He doesn't have much composure or positional awareness and tends to be a bit headless chicken when defending, and he hasn't the ability to control a game either. Hes a likeable chap but not good enough to be a starter for a club with ambition to win the league.

Who are you describing here? Rooney, Fellaini or just strictly Herrera?

 

[pacifictheme]

Who are you describing here? Rooney, Fellaini or just strictly Herrera?

Its funny how quickly people jump on Rooney but defend Herrera endlessly despite him contributing little.

 

[dichinero]

Its funny how quickly people jump on Rooney but defend Herrera endlessly despite him contributing little.

Because you like many fans are quick to judge a player without considering many variables that could be affecting their performances. You have chosen to disregard the goals he scored against this so called smaller teams when the forward players who were responsible for doing the job did not do it. Last season he did well most of the time regardless of the little game time he was afforded, so to call it a mini run is really unfair. Take away the goals that Rooney has scored, he has been absolutely crap, I wonder if Herrera had scored as many goals would you still regard him as poor?

 

[pacifictheme]

Because you like many fans are quick to judge a player without considering many variables that could be affecting their performances. You have chosen to disregard the goals he scored against this so called smaller teams when the forward players who were responsible for doing the job did not do it. Last season he did well most of the time regardless of the little game time he was afforded, so to call it a mini run is really unfair. Take away the goals that Rooney has scored, he has been absolutely crap, I wonder if Herrera had scored as many goals would you still regard him as poor?

I've considered plenty. Hes just not that good. If he scored 20 goals from midfield i'd think more of him. My point is he doesn't really have a strength. He can pass ok but can't control a game or provide consistent incisive passes or assists. He can score the odd goal but doesn't get enough. He works hard defensively but is often rash, loses composure and is positionally poor. So where does he fit in at an elite level side? He doesn't really fit in to our current team.

The mini run comment was in response to the guy i was quoting talking about a 5 game period. Try to follow conversations rather than blindly defending a player while offering no real substance to the debate.

EDIT: to say hes not that good is a bit harsh. Not good enough would be a better way of putting it.

 

[Spock]

I don't understand how it is evident van Gaal doesn't like Ander and Fellaini is "getting all those starts" when Ander has played more than Fellaini. When did van Gaal say he prefers taller players? Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlin are hardly taller anyway and Mata certainly isn't. I'd say his often complete lack of positional discipline is why he isn't favoured deeper instead of his height.


What Leicester match, the one we lost? Hardly mid-season it was out 5/6th match. Most of Ander's best play came later in the season anyway when he was partnered with Fellaini and Carrick in a 3.

It's a silly comment in IMHO but LVG really did state a preference for taller players, or at least bemoaned a lack of height in the players he had at the time he made this comment:

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...gaal-feels-united-have-height-deficiency.aspx

As for the quality of Herrera and Fellaini, the gap between them is a chasm. I readily concede that Fellaini has his uses in spot situations but he should be nowhere near the starting XI for United.

It's pretty well established, at least here -- and I agree with the consensus -- that the Leicester City match had a profound impact on Van Gaal. Whatever it is he thought he saw with respect to losing composure, ill-disciple at the back or whatever, he soon thereafter adopted a much more conservative approach and our play became unbearable to watch until we beat Liverpool and started that little run that locked us into fourth place (the Liverpool match effectively sealed fourth place for us...and for a day or two there was giddiness here at the prospect of us actually lifting the league trophy) after which time we reverted back to bad habits and almost lost fourth place. This more conservative approach imposed by Van Gaal has had a negative impact on players with a natural attacking instinct -- particularly Mata and Herrera -- and we've seen dire play overall as a result.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I'm gonna make an educated guess here and that if we have a new manager next season (ANY manager), Herrera will be an absolute mainstay and important player in our team.

He's simply too good (relatively speaking) with all the right tools (mentally, ability and physically) to not click with a manager that would give him and other players more freedom (again pretty much anyone bar LVG at this point).

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

No. We should leave Mata as a 10. He's played good in the last two games and has been highly influential in our play.

Ideally, I would like to see Herrera as an 8. Personally, I think that's his best position.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Don't like the guy too much to be completely honest. Which is weird, because he is by all means a very likeable and intelligent lad, which in turn might be the reason I don't like him. It's just that I feel he's got something sneaky about him, like why did he give an interview praising Jose? Or was that coincidental/taken out of context/was he just asked a question?

As a player I do like his playing style sometimes and he is pretty decent, but nothing special. He was and could be a good squad player for us, last year he scored much more than he did at Bilbao if I'm not mistaken. When he was in form he really was a pretty nice player to watch. But I don't really like him and this year he has been poor. His amigo shite with Mata gets on my nerve too, on the pitch he is always looking for his little friend when they play together, yet he's never looking to pass it to other players as eagerly as he is looking to pass it to Mata. If he would actively be looking to set up all our other players I reckon we'd be a lot better as a team.

 

[mufcwarm92]

We're away at Chelsea so we'll almost certainly see Mata pushed wide again and Herrera central.

 

[dichinero]

I've considered plenty. Hes just not that good. If he scored 20 goals from midfield i'd think more of him. My point is he doesn't really have a strength. He can pass ok but can't control a game or provide consistent incisive passes or assists. He can score the odd goal but doesn't get enough. He works hard defensively but is often rash, loses composure and is positionally poor. So where does he fit in at an elite level side? He doesn't really fit in to our current team.

The mini run comment was in response to the guy i was quoting talking about a 5 game period. Try to follow conversations rather than blindly defending a player while offering no real substance to the debate.

EDIT: to say hes not that good is a bit harsh. Not good enough would be a better way of putting it.

If he scored 20 goals from midfield, you'd think of him? Really? I really hope you are joking here. You are looking for that kind of player that doesn't even exist in the PL to come from a struggling United side. How many of our players are capable of controlling a game once in a while, talk less of consistently? How many make these incisive passes you speak of consistently? How many goals do think is good enough from him? You say he works hard and defensively too, how many of our CMs are hard workers and are defensively adept at the same time. You are expecting so much from one player when it is clear he is at least decent in every facet of midfield play, something that many midfielders in the league can't boast of.

You ask where he fits in an elite side, who fits in an elite side save de Gea?

 

[KikiDaKats]

@dichinero was he not mainly an AM at Zara..? Just trying refresh my memory because I didn't see(concentrate) much of him at Bilbao.

Anyway, Herrera and Blind are the two players am most excited about. If my thinking of him as AM is right and moving to the style Bilbao played into CM, LVG is laying emphasis on the right things for him at present. I don't think a Bielsa team is the right club to reference a CMs ability to when they move to a team playing in a different way.
I really like him, just think he is half ready for what he should be doing. This senseless stifling he is experiencing is likelier to make than ruin him as a CM.

 

[Litch]

Lovely lad and not without talent, but still can't work out his best position....

 

[POF]

Herrera's best qualities are intangibles. He has a great attitude and he has creative instincts that make things happen. His passing lacks precision at times and it really holds him back from being really top class. United is a better team when he is in it.

He is completely unsuited to Van Gaal's style and system this season. There was a spell last season where there was a strong argument that he was the best midfielder in the league.

With a different manager he could be a really key man. Hopefully that will prove to be the case next season.

 

[dichinero]

@dichinero was he not mainly an AM at Zara..? Just trying refresh my memory because I didn't see(concentrate) much of him at Bilbao.

Anyway, Herrera and Blind are the two players am most excited about. If my thinking of him as AM is right and moving to the style Bilbao played into CM, LVG is laying emphasis on the right things for him at present. I don't think a Bielsa team is the right club to reference a CMs ability to when they move to a team playing in a different way.
I really like him, just think he is half ready for what he should be doing. This senseless stifling he is experiencing is likelier to make than ruin him as a CM.

My point exactly, I'm not saying he has been great by any means because he hasn't but it is clear that he is struggling to adapt to what LvG wants. But that happens a lot. The CM position is easily the most complex, that is why you can have up to 6 types of CM excluding the DM position. What he needs is patience, he can be a top CM in the future.

 

[finneh]

10 goals or assists in 26 games is ok but not great, but lets look at those stats. His goals were against Yeovil, qpr, preston, leicester who were shit last season and two against villa, who were also shit. So no stats padding there then (just every goal he scored). If it was rooney we were discussing everyone would discount goals against shit teams, so i see no reason to make an exception here.

That was a great mini period but it doesn't mean he should be a starter now.

Hes been poor this season and is very hit and miss, mostly miss. I can't think of a single game since hes been with us where hes really grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and run the show. He doesn't have much composure or positional awareness and tends to be a bit headless chicken when defending, and he hasn't the ability to control a game either. Hes a likeable chap but not good enough to be a starter for a club with ambition to win the league.

This 10 goals and assists were in under 1900 odd minutes as a lot of those 26 appeaeances were off the bench. If he continued that kind of productivity over say 33-34 full matches (3000 minutes) he'd have 16 odd goals/assists which is a great return.

Just like with a lot of our players, he started very well and the more he's been mismanaged the worse he's gotten.

 

[pacifictheme]

If he scored 20 goals from midfield, you'd think of him? Really? I really hope you are joking here. You are looking for that kind of player that doesn't even exist in the PL to come from a struggling United side. How many of our players are capable of controlling a game once in a while, talk less of consistently? How many make these incisive passes you speak of consistently? How many goals do think is good enough from him? You say he works hard and defensively too, how many of our CMs are hard workers and are defensively adept at the same time. You are expecting so much from one player when it is clear he is at least decent in every facet of midfield play, something that many midfielders in the league can't boast of.

You ask where he fits in an elite side, who fits in an elite side save de Gea?

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you as you're not really capable of a rational discussion about this. Shame.

 

[pacifictheme]

This 10 goals and assists were in under 1900 odd minutes as a lot of those 26 appeaeances were off the bench. If he continued that kind of productivity over say 33-34 full matches (3000 minutes) he'd have 16 odd goals/assists which is a great return.

Just like with a lot of our players, he started very well and the more he's been mismanaged the worse he's gotten.

He started 19 of those 26 games. No comment on the calibre of opposition he scored against?

 

[finneh]

He started 19 of those 26 games. No comment on the calibre of opposition he scored against?

Vs the calibre of opposition he assisted against which was much better?

We certainly could also have done with a few more goals against relegation fodder like Bournemouth, Newcastle and Norwich this season.

 

[Speak]

I'm not quite sure how anyone genuinely thinks Mata isn't good enough. He's a phenomenally gifted player, who has been criminally used out wide, where he does look pretty average as it's not his position. Yes he can have a little wander inside, but it's not the same.

Midweek he looked good, with 2 sharp fast wingers round him.

Now ideally, we'd have 3 fast players, with only one of Rooney or Mata in there too.

No, he doesn't look average because he's out wide. That's just some excuse people use because they want to believe he's a positional change away from greatness, when he isn't. His famous two years at Chelsea involved him playing out wide for a good while, and he played out wide in Spain before that. It's a cop out.

His real issue is that he's pretty mediocre in a possession team that requires him to keep hold of the ball and move the team forward whilst under pressure.
He wouldn't get into any serious possession team. He's better suited to playing in a team that counters against stretched defences.
However, he also wouldn't get into a serious counter-attacking side either, because he's of little use defensively and can't dribble past people to relieve pressure or gain territory.

He's gifted in that he has a great first touch, an accurate pass/set-piece, and (sometimes) a reliable finish.
But the ability to side-step a challenge, dribble past a man (towards goal), shield the ball, turn a man... all lacking.

 

[noodlehair]

I think he's lost his way and don't think he's really suited as a no10...I want to see him in central midfield for a bit but it just doesn't look llike it'll ever happen. I think he'd be ideal instead of Fellaini at the moment (well, ideal in terms of what we have available to us), but I'm pretty convinced LVG wont drop Fellaini while Blind's at CB because he's worried about set pieces and stuff.

It's all a bit of a mess.

Mata, Herrera and Carrick in the same midfield doesn't look too bad to me...with Mata furthest forward and Carrick the one sitting. You have discipline, passing range, energy, and a bit of spike in Herrera, and creativity from all three. Can't see how it wouldn't at least be better than some of the nonsense we've tried in that area of the pitch this season.

 

[NoLogo]

I still think he is best suited to play as our number 8 but he really lacks a bit in terms of tactical intelligence/discipline which he tries to make up for in terms of effort he puts in. The problem is that in a system that highly relies on tactical discipline you can't really afford a player like him because the whole system collapses if he isn't doing his job properly.

I have to say the only time he fully convinced me was in that short period we played a 4-3-3 with the point backwards when he could form a great partnership with Mata. Apart from that he had the occasional good game but mainly seemed to struggle to find his place in the team.