Messi has his quiet games as well, means nothing tbh. Two of other teams attackers aren't even playing in their favored position.
Criteria Draft Round 1 - KM/Stobzilla vs VivaJanuzaj/Crappycraperson
- Thread starter RoadTrip
- Start date
Voting KM as he gave me few likes in newbies back in the days when promotion needed to be earned. #fairplay
@KM I don't see the relevance between Messi's off days and Zidane. I think it's fairly obvious to everyone that every player wasn't at his best at every single day.
I think what crappy means and I think it's really clear that in these setups, Zidane is likely not to do well with Sammer on him alone and little room to operate, while Messi can easily thrive in a counter attacking football with 2 fast players, against 4 good(but not top) defenders, with neither of them capable of stopping him alone. I don't think there's any arguments here that in this hypothetical match Messi is more likely to do much better than Zidane considering both setups.
Kidding
Liked both of the teams and even thought of voting both but then it would have been a pointless exercise on my part. KM's team having few past United players helped.
I'm inclined to agree with you Balu. Inviting pressure against this calibre of attack is risky. I'm not a fan of Kanchelskis playing out of position on the left, although he can do some decent work from the centre/left channel. See 1:35, 2:22 and 3:40 for example.
@Balu @Pat_Mustard the way I see it, we defend with so many players so deep so we won't allow his top players to get their rhythm going, kind of like Mourinho's plan against Barca with Inter(where Eto'o excelled), simply with more players and better players of course sitting forward. I don't think Messi's influence here is being acknowledged, give Messi the ball on the half way line against one or two defenders with room to run, he's unstoppable. With all of Davids' pace, Messi pace is much faster, and with room to run I'm sure he can beat both Irwin and Pallister, that's without even mentioning Etoo's presence.
Mourinho took out Barca's best team in history who was unstoppable, with better passers(Xavi-Iniesta > Zidane-Veron) and better cohesion using exactly this - plenty of players behind the ball defending.
I know it's not attractive or enjoyable football, but with the right players it simply works. We're almost taking out of the match Zidane, we have two midfielders to press two midfielders with nothing else to do, Ginola in the pocket of two defenders with no room to go. leaving Robben the only real threat here in a very tight defense.
Let's not forget that in a defense this tight, most team will have to rely on crosses, I don't fear Ginola there honestly, especially when Robben is not crossing with his best foot, and Lahm is on the other wing. To be fair, I really can't see how they can score, unless Robben does something brilliant. On the other hand, we're kinda relying on Messi or Eto'o to do something spectacular, but against a much easier setup.
For me it's a classic 1-0/2-0 win for us, with the chance of finishing 0-0 if Messi is off his peak
Mourinho took out Barca's best team in history who was unstoppable, with better passers(Xavi-Iniesta > Zidane-Veron) and better cohesion using exactly this - plenty of players behind the ball defending.
I know it's not attractive or enjoyable football, but with the right players it simply works. We're almost taking out of the match Zidane, we have two midfielders to press two midfielders with nothing else to do, Ginola in the pocket of two defenders with no room to go. leaving Robben the only real threat here in a very tight defense.
Let's not forget that in a defense this tight, most team will have to rely on crosses, I don't fear Ginola there honestly, especially when Robben is not crossing with his best foot, and Lahm is on the other wing. To be fair, I really can't see how they can score, unless Robben does something brilliant. On the other hand, we're kinda relying on Messi or Eto'o to do something spectacular, but against a much easier setup.
For me it's a classic 1-0/2-0 win for us, with the chance of finishing 0-0 if Messi is off his peak
Except you aren't taking Zidane out of the match and there is no reason for him to be overlooked, if your instruction to Sammer is to follow him everywhere, you open up a gaping hole which Signori's movement along with Robben's can exploit, this is without mentioning having Davids able to drive forward should the time present itself and also Balokov and Verons ability to unlock defences with their passing.
You mention the Barca Inter games from 2010 (a series of games where for all Inters defensive work, they still conceded, twice and would have been a much different game if Puyol and Abidal had been available for both games.) but Messi's influence was marginalised in that game playing... out wide, where you have him playing here and Eto'o "excelled" but he was also playing out wide, where you have him not playing.
You mention the Barca Inter games from 2010 (a series of games where for all Inters defensive work, they still conceded, twice and would have been a much different game if Puyol and Abidal had been available for both games.) but Messi's influence was marginalised in that game playing... out wide, where you have him playing here and Eto'o "excelled" but he was also playing out wide, where you have him not playing.
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Doesn't matter where Messi played there, he's playing in a completely different team tactics and against a completely setup defensively. He got canceled that match because he was playing against a defense playing exactly the same like my defense, not yours. That argument really means nothing tbh.
As for Zidane, again I never said he'll be completely canceled out, I said over and over and I'll say again that his influence of the match will be massively reduced. The idea of him playing in a really crowded middle and on top of that Sammer sitting like a rat on him, will take any player off his best, including Zizou.
Plus, you keep mentioning Davids and Veron, Veron is being monitored by Cocu who is superb defensively, he'll still get plenty on the ball and spread passes around, but it won't do any good because the balls won't be played as through balls, kind of forcing him to be Cleverley with his annoying back passes and to the wings with no forward drive(just kidding, I'm not even implying he will be like Clevs, just wanted to make a point that his through balls will meet a really narrow tough defense), and Davids will be really bothered by Modric who is really underrated defensively. Still, If Davids drives forward of course it won't be untroubled because he's one of the best, but he won't have the pace to chase Messi back, and you mentioned he will. You really can't have it both ways, either he's patient and stays rather backwards to help with Messi than you lose an attacker for most attacks, or you got Messi with more room to play his best with space to burn. Not sure about the point of Robben and Ginola movement with Sammer opening the space, if Sammer moves forward to get Zidane, and Ginola moves inside it's still worst case scenario for me three defenders against 2 attackers in a crowded area. I'm liking my chances there.
I think Messi's influence is being massively underrated here, we keep talking about how much Zidane will influence the game and while we've presented a plan on how to minimize Zidane to limit his form, Messi is being unmarked, with tons of space up the pitch to run with his pace and technique and beat Irwin than Pallister. Do I need to remind you that great counter attacking goal when Messi drove past 5(or something like that) players on the counter from the right wing and scored? He usually doesn't get too many chances like that because of Barca's domination in possession, but when he does it's lethal. That's the whole idea behind our tactics
You're not playing Barca though. It's a very different team you're facing and Signori is pretty much exactly the plan B that Barca never had. Iniesta was injured by the way, Barca played Busquets, Xavi, Keita in midfield and those three have nowhere near the creativity and passing range Zidane and Veron offer, nor the pace and physicality Davids brings to the team.
Gone for Stobz - Davids/Veron/Zidane is drool worthy and worth a vote on it's own.
Robben brings a lovely balance and mix, as well as being another attacking route for Stobz against a side sitting deep. The passing from Veron, the creativity from Zidane and Robbens dribbling would just be too much against a side looking to defend. I can't see that attack getting frustrated.
Robben brings a lovely balance and mix, as well as being another attacking route for Stobz against a side sitting deep. The passing from Veron, the creativity from Zidane and Robbens dribbling would just be too much against a side looking to defend. I can't see that attack getting frustrated.
Its always a huge gamble imo, and in your case an unnecessary one given the quality of players at your disposal.
I'm fairly confident that if we were to choose to play possession football or a balance between that and counter attacking football we would've got torn by that attack, that is the best way to deal with it and beat it
Bump
Bump
Whom do you have on bench?
But you wouldn't, would you? Why the heck would you commit those defenders forward when you have Balakov/Zidane/Robben/Signori upfront? What the hell does Aurier, Ferrara, Palli or Davids bring to that broth? Nowt. The only one who Stob needs to break forward occasionally is Irwin providing width on the left (Balakov isn't an out and out winger but AM/SS centre-to-left playmaker*, inside left is as far as I would push him) and he will be more than competently covered by Davids.
No issues. I love counter-attacking football, but you need the other side to expose itself really and that defence isn't bound to be particularly exposed.
*Balakov = Modric, bulked up, much better, with an incredible engine and drive, a belter of a shot, and better suited to advanced positions even if he could start centrally more competently as well.
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It is not about someone having an off day due to law of averages. We have specifically tried to limit zidanes input. To explain it better, if we had beckenbauer in sammer's role no one would have batted an eye lid at zidane being taken out of the game. So only issue is if you think sammer is good enough to do a job on zidane. I think he is so I stand by what I said. He won't even have to follow him all over just Marshall the area he can do damage from
His wide men clogging up the central area is the last thing he needs against a back 5 shilded by 2 cms. Lahm is well equppied to take care of balakov. Robben is too selfish to play the role he would need to here. He also prefers a full back to overlap against tight defenses.
For me Team VivaJanuzaj/Crappy just has more average quality.
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Un-fecking-believable. I still remember how you wrote that you didn't understand Sammer's role and then voted against me in my game against Polaroid back when I had the German 532 with Sammer doing exactly the same thing against Zidane
. And I had a significantly stronger and better suited centerback pair, which gave him way more freedom in midfield.Don't think that's true. Robben can do good work with smart off the ball runs if he has excellent playmakers in the team. He usually turned into his annoying one-trick pony mode when the rest of the team struggled to provide him with anything, but here with Veron, Zidane and Balakov in the team, it's just very unlikely that he doesn't get on the end of a few through balls. His pace and movement is definitely an excellent addition to the team. You shouldn't give him the ball in midfield and have him running at the defense though, that doesn't make much sense, I agree with that. But that's not all he offers in this team, not at all.
Messi on the right takes a lot away from him. He reached his god status when he was playing in the center forward role both for Argentina and Barcelona.
Personally with our midfield being comfortably better than the other team and the fact that two of the other teams attackers aren't even playing in their best position makes it an easy call.
We can talk about taking Zidane out of the game which isn't that easy but the fact is that due to positioning of attackers, we can deal with them easily. Don't get me started about the lack of pace in the other teams central defensive pair.
Personally with our midfield being comfortably better than the other team and the fact that two of the other teams attackers aren't even playing in their best position makes it an easy call.
We can talk about taking Zidane out of the game which isn't that easy but the fact is that due to positioning of attackers, we can deal with them easily. Don't get me started about the lack of pace in the other teams central defensive pair.
Un-fecking-believable. I still remember how you wrote that you didn't understand Sammer's role and then voted against me in my game against Polaroid back when I had the German 532 with Sammer doing exactly the same thing against Zidane
That game was one of the best discussions I've seen in these drafts, although it was mental how much you had to justify playing Sammer in his best position and how unlucky you were overall. I would have voted for you but missed the deadline, and Fergus voted for Pol by mistake!Un-fecking-believable. I still remember how you wrote that you didn't understand Sammer's role and then voted against me in my game against Polaroid back when I had the German 532 with Sammer doing exactly the same thing against Zidane
Don't think that's true. Robben can do good work with smart off the ball runs if he has excellent playmakers in the team. He usually turned into his annoying one-trick pony mode when the rest of the team struggled to provide him with anything, but here with Veron, Zidane and Balakov in the team, it's just very unlikely that he doesn't get on the end of a few through balls. His pace and movement is definitely an excellent addition to the team. You shouldn't give him the ball in midfield and have him running at the defense though, that doesn't make much sense, I agree with that. But that's not all he offers in this team, not at all.
Can you post those links?
Un-fecking-believable. I still remember how you wrote that you didn't understand Sammer's role and then voted against me in my game against Polaroid back when I had the German 532 with Sammer doing exactly the same thing against Zidane
Don't think that's true. Robben can do good work with smart off the ball runs if he has excellent playmakers in the team. He usually turned into his annoying one-trick pony mode when the rest of the team struggled to provide him with anything, but here with Veron, Zidane and Balakov in the team, it's just very unlikely that he doesn't get on the end of a few through balls. His pace and movement is definitely an excellent addition to the team. You shouldn't give him the ball in midfield and have him running at the defense though, that doesn't make much sense, I agree with that. But that's not all he offers in this team, not at all.
Very much possible I was mistaken then. Also we are putting sammer on zidane that is his primary role. Just that he won't go too forward if zidane drops very deep which is unlikely with veron there. But if if he drifts to left sammer could follow him.
I just disagree on robben. Everyone raved about his WC when he had the free role and played the role of ball carrier. He is the sort of player who needs to spend considerable time on ball to have a good game
More discussion needs to be had how the other side would survive any counters.
Even a below par messi in WC created chances and scored goals by running at defenders. He just needs that one opportunity to make the difference.
Davids alone won't be enough against messi let alone if lahm or modric break forward. Etoo is the perfect pacey striker to have and people are forgetting the work rate he showed at inter a ca team
Even a below par messi in WC created chances and scored goals by running at defenders. He just needs that one opportunity to make the difference.
Davids alone won't be enough against messi let alone if lahm or modric break forward. Etoo is the perfect pacey striker to have and people are forgetting the work rate he showed at inter a ca team
I'm guessing he is talking about this post and the one that follows.
Also, here's something I hope you haven't forgotten.
Difference is we have positioned summer as DM only. He is playing the free defender role which means GE retreats back if and when needed.I'm guessing he is talking about this post and the one that follows.
Also, here's something I hope you haven't forgotten.
Besides I stated at that time I voted against balu since he was leading by 4 and I thought that gap was too big for the game. Most posts of mine in that game were pro balu
I m off to an internet less place in a while.
Good game so far.
Good game so far.
Aye all to play for with a quarter of a game remaining.
This is 2008 messi with great link up with etoo. I m happy to have him over god messi
Lack of pace would matter if our defense pushed up. It is more of an issue for you lot
I'm guessing he is talking about this post and the one that follows.
Also, here's something I hope you haven't forgotten.
Stobz
Pallister was one of the quickest. Its not an issue for us.
Dropping deep and giving Veron space is hardly the best idea too. He has all the time to pick up the perfect pass and unleash a shot on the goal.
Its also suicidal tactics against Robben.
Yeah, but I lost on penalties
And again, it's exactly what I did with him playing slightly before the centerback pair as a free defender.
How is that any different than in your game here
. But good to know that you learned now that Sammer can do that job. The beauty is, that you play him the right way here and really put him to work and get the best out of him.Yeah, but I lost on penalties
And again, it's exactly what I did with him playing slightly before the centerback pair as a free defender.
How is that any different than in your game here
So basically Sammer wasn't good enough to silent Zidane in that match but he can take him out right now?
No, that's not really what he said. Crappy was as usal very critical of Zidane back then. My comment above was a bit tongue in cheek, I just really liked my team and Crappy's vote (along with Aldo's jinx) turned what looked like an easy win into a loss
So basically Sammer wasn't good enough to silent Zidane in that match but he can take him out right now?
.Here's one of his posts in the thread back then:
Crappy was always very critical about Zidane as far as I remember, because he has nowadays this aura of invincibilty when in reality he failed to perform in quite a lot big games and if he was as good and unfailable as many portray him these days, his trophy haul would be way more impressive. He also got very lucky that his team carried him to the World Cup final in '98, when he finally turned his career around after losing an UEFA cup final and 2 CL finals with invisible performances and being clearly below par in the World Cup. Veron, Robben and Signori are the ones that can win you this game here in my opinion, not Zidane. He's well taken care of and has to play in a tight area marshalled by Sammer, that's as difficult as it gets for him.
KM/Stob got better creativity from the MF position compared to Viva/Crappy.Stopping Modric here will cut supply to messi/eto?
With this setup viva's hope of scoring goals come from counter attack.
Messi is messi but still Irwin can do decent job on him, viva could have played him in middle and got someone out wide.
On the other side,attacking threat of KM/Stob,especially from the right is immense.
With this setup viva's hope of scoring goals come from counter attack.
Messi is messi but still Irwin can do decent job on him, viva could have played him in middle and got someone out wide.
On the other side,attacking threat of KM/Stob,especially from the right is immense.
So basically Irwin can do a job on Messi with miles to run while Zambrotta can't on Robben in a very tight area? I don't see the logic here sorry.
@Balu I think your team there was superb, I also remember that Pol's team was incredible, but the difference in Sammer vs Zidane battle in both cases is the narrowness of the defense. We haven't done the formation in this11 with forward arrows for a reason - we don't want players to push forward, we want them to remain squeezed and narrow so the opposing attacking players won't have room to play their best. Give Robben or Zidane room and you're toast. So were playing an extremely narrow defensive team with plenty of men behind the ball. His attackers overall are better than our defenders overall, but using smart tactics we will stop them from scoring, that's the only way.
And please, enough of this Messi on the right wing nonsense. I said it before, Messi is on a free role, in a setup that is perfect for him because he will have a lot of room to run in and do his best, the way I see it we're combining god Messi and young Messi to get the best of both. Just because Messi plays False 9 on a tiki taka doesn't mean he'll be any less good in a counter attacking team. Barca are playing passing game because of Iniesta and Xavi, not because they want to do what's best for Messi, if Messi were to move to Real Madrid instead of Ronaldo they would've kept playing counter attacking football using Messi's speed and technique instead of Ronaldo's, it's really that simple
@Balu I think your team there was superb, I also remember that Pol's team was incredible, but the difference in Sammer vs Zidane battle in both cases is the narrowness of the defense. We haven't done the formation in this11 with forward arrows for a reason - we don't want players to push forward, we want them to remain squeezed and narrow so the opposing attacking players won't have room to play their best. Give Robben or Zidane room and you're toast. So were playing an extremely narrow defensive team with plenty of men behind the ball. His attackers overall are better than our defenders overall, but using smart tactics we will stop them from scoring, that's the only way.
And please, enough of this Messi on the right wing nonsense. I said it before, Messi is on a free role, in a setup that is perfect for him because he will have a lot of room to run in and do his best, the way I see it we're combining god Messi and young Messi to get the best of both. Just because Messi plays False 9 on a tiki taka doesn't mean he'll be any less good in a counter attacking team. Barca are playing passing game because of Iniesta and Xavi, not because they want to do what's best for Messi, if Messi were to move to Real Madrid instead of Ronaldo they would've kept playing counter attacking football using Messi's speed and technique instead of Ronaldo's, it's really that simple
I've not heard one convincing retort to a question I have asked throughout and that is how you plan on starting these counter attacks, the only thing you have mentioned in terms of a route to goal seems to be "get it to Messi and let him run"
Masterful.
This is without mentioning you have Kanchelskis not being made full use of and have him playing on his opposite side which means for all his pace he still has to check back on to his right ala Ashley Young ( payback for Cleveron)
Masterful.
This is without mentioning you have Kanchelskis not being made full use of and have him playing on his opposite side which means for all his pace he still has to check back on to his right ala Ashley Young (
payback for Cleveron)I've not heard one convincing retort to a question I have asked throughout and that is how you plan on starting these counter attacks, the only thing you have mentioned in terms of a route to goal seems to be "get it to Messi and let him run"
Masterful.
This is without mentioning you have Kanchelskis not being made full use of and have him playing on his opposite side which means for all his pace he still has to check back on to his right ala Ashley Young (
superbThe route to goal is simple, we have five great passers in Valdes de boer Lahm Sammer and Modric, either one gets the ball to Luka who sends a short pass to one of the trio, or one of them sends a long ball, in the one time Messi or Eto'o manage to stop the ball and turn with their face to the attack, it's a dangerous attack and probably a chance
So we're adding long balls in as well ? Variety, I like it.
As Anto and myself have pointed out, there is no reason for me to get caught 3v3 my attack is capable of opening you up. If Sammer follows Zidane dropping back slightly and your defenders by instruction are already deep then you have Juan Veron marching into untold amounts of space probably one of the best players in this draft at doing so and making a chance.
And if Cocu tracks him back then you still have Balakov coming in off the left and Veron is more than capable of picking out any Robben or Sognori run either over the top:
Look how deep narrow and congested it is
Or threading it through the middle.
As Anto and myself have pointed out, there is no reason for me to get caught 3v3 my attack is capable of opening you up. If Sammer follows Zidane dropping back slightly and your defenders by instruction are already deep then you have Juan Veron marching into untold amounts of space probably one of the best players in this draft at doing so and making a chance.
And if Cocu tracks him back then you still have Balakov coming in off the left and Veron is more than capable of picking out any Robben or Sognori run either over the top:
Look how deep narrow and congested it is
Or threading it through the middle.