It's tragic that Muller's game is reduced to stats.
Finally someone with some sense on here.
They will go down as the two greatest football players to ever grace the pitch.
The fact that the OP has reduced the comparison to using the last 5 years of Ronaldo's career to the entirety of Mueller's (ignoring CR's marauding and exhilarating winger days where he could do it all) tells you all you need to know about this debate. Ronaldo is on another level as a all-round player.
This one isn't anywhere close; Cristiano Ronaldo is the greatest player of all time...this vs thread is a joke
Interesting. It's still in use but I had no idea that was the origin, thanks for sharing.
Who would those dozen strikers have been in Müller's era? Honestly I'm curious, since I can only recall Seeler and Eusebio having anywhere near those stats (about 400 and 430 goals respectivly) in the late 60s and 70s. Müller's stats without his spell in Nördlingen would've still have been 400 goals in 370 matches in the top flight which has been pretty much unparalleled, well until the modern era of the Ronaldos, Messis and Neymars strange enough.
Dada Maravilha has over 900 goal apparently, but no clue when/where he scored them.
Brazilian counting methods.
Hard to judge, seeing the huge difference in era. Müller wins it on his nickname alone though.
That's a really odd use of facts. You present all the numbers re: Ronaldo's era, but no numbers for Muller's era. Just a throwaway comment that fits your narrative and it passes for "finally some sense". Here's a few sources on goals at an overall and individual level:
- Average goals per game in the World Cup
- World Cup top scorers
- European golden shoe winners
- European cup top scorers
- European cup goals per game
- English league goals per season
Let's take a couple of those examples and put Muller against his actual peer group.
- The 5 players that managed to outscore Muller in a single European cup season in the 70s were: Cruyff, Heynckes, Simonsen, Sulser and Lerby. Not one of them got over 300 goals in their club career.
- The only players to score more than 3 goals in the two World Cups Muller played in the 70s were Lato, Rep, Szarmach, Neeskens, Edstrom, Jairzinho, Cubillas, Pélé and Byshovets. Only two of them scored over 300 goals, and Cubillas just got over that 300 goal mark with goals at the tail end of his career in e.g. the newly started American Soccer League.
- The only players to outscore him in the Bundesliga in a single season in the 70s were Klobhun, Heynckes, Dieter Muller and Fischer. Only one of them got over 300 goals and Fischer just about managed it.
The reality is that these players have always been the exception. Muller was obviously exceptional for anyone who watched him. The idea that he was just doing what the other top strikers around him were doing is absurd. It's an easy mistake when you misread a few numbers on a piece of paper but impossible to do so when you actually watched him in that era against his peers. It was just unusual to have Pélé and Eusébio at the same time in the same way it was unusual to have Messi and Ronaldo at the same time.
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When Müller scored against semi-professional or amateur teams he was a semi-professional or amateur...
Müller finished school with 14 and then learned a job: weaver. He played his first senior match with 17.5 years and his first match for Bayern with 18.5. The contract for Bayern came with a half-day-job for a furniture company. He was not always playing for the top team of the league as Bayern started with young guns in 1965 in the Bundesliga and it took some years until they were that title winning team from 1972 to 74 in the Bundesliga and 1974 to 76 in Europe. During his time at Bayern they were 4 times Champion, 2 times 2nd, 2 times 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 10th and 12th... - not always the top dog.
CR7 started playing in the Sporting academy with 12...
In the Bundesliga Gerd leads any lists with big margins. His 365 goals in the Bundesliga are followed by Fischer's 268. In the German Cup he leads with 75 goals in 60 matches. The next has 35 goals.
It is difficult to compare players of different times.
Muller
He was something else.
Ronaldo well I just think he is a bit less special.
He was something else.
Ronaldo well I just think he is a bit less special.
Some of you are seriously underestimating Müller and I'm not saying this because I am a Bayern fan. He is easily one of the best strikers of all time and arguably the best striker ever inside the penalty box. He wasn't just a poacher like Inzaghi, Chicharito or the likes, his agility and speed over short distances was world class, his finishing inside the box is probably second to none and his short passing was heavily underrated. He was also pretty much the definition of a big game player (more than CR7).
Ronaldo is probably the better overall footballer, but to say that Müller's numbers were anything else but very special is ridiculous, especially since it has never been easier to score up until now since the 50s or 60s respectively.
Ronaldo is probably the better overall footballer, but to say that Müller's numbers were anything else but very special is ridiculous, especially since it has never been easier to score up until now since the 50s or 60s respectively.
Ronaldo improved upon what Müller was great at so it's a clear choice for me.
Muller.
Modern day forwards have weaker defences and advantage of being in attack oriented era to boost their stats.
Messi and CR are exceptional, but I'd still take LR and Muller Everytime.
Modern day forwards have weaker defences and advantage of being in attack oriented era to boost their stats.
Messi and CR are exceptional, but I'd still take LR and Muller Everytime.
I think Messi will go down in the top 3 alongside Maradona and Pele, and Ronaldo will rest somewhere in the following group.
No he isn't.
i have serious doubts your Portuguese. your typing mannerisms are far to local and slang. Unless you speak perfectly fluent uk slang. off topic i know. Just something ive noticed recently. The Shawcross Comment swung it for me.
Well its only short videos but...
Like I said never watched full matches of him but even those short highlights are enough to show he was more than a simple poacher.
His instinct or movement was top on that era and if he was on the same era as Cristiano Ronaldo with all the training conditions they have this days, sports science, recovery its not stupid to say with those numbers he had like 68 goals in 62 matches for West Germany on a era where you weren't probably smashing the Liechtensteins of this life like Cristiano had the chance... well there is at least room for speculation here.
But only comparing the last 5 years of Ronaldo at Madrid, as a overall player don't think anyone can dispute the fact he is more complete. Oh and I already voted Ronaldo. But respect for this one.
@oneniltothearsenal I have been reviewing lately former Portugal matches from the 90's like friendlies and qualifiers vs Germany. Regarding this one I will try when I can European Cup matches for Bayern or Germany at WC's. Its too much football simply to watch. But thanks.
Like I said never watched full matches of him but even those short highlights are enough to show he was more than a simple poacher.
His instinct or movement was top on that era and if he was on the same era as Cristiano Ronaldo with all the training conditions they have this days, sports science, recovery its not stupid to say with those numbers he had like 68 goals in 62 matches for West Germany on a era where you weren't probably smashing the Liechtensteins of this life like Cristiano had the chance... well there is at least room for speculation here.
But only comparing the last 5 years of Ronaldo at Madrid, as a overall player don't think anyone can dispute the fact he is more complete. Oh and I already voted Ronaldo. But respect for this one.
@oneniltothearsenal I have been reviewing lately former Portugal matches from the 90's like friendlies and qualifiers vs Germany. Regarding this one I will try when I can European Cup matches for Bayern or Germany at WC's. Its too much football simply to watch. But thanks.
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Well its only short videos but...
Like I said never watched full matches of him but even those short highlights are enough to show he was more than a simple poacher.
His instinct or movement was top on that era and if he was on the same era as Cristiano Ronaldo with all the training conditions they have this days, sports science, recovery its not stupid to say with those numbers he had like 68 goals in 62 matches for West Germany on a era where you weren't probably smashing the Liechtensteins of this life like Cristiano had the chance... well there is at least room for speculation here.
But only comparing the last 5 years of Ronaldo at Madrid, as a overall player don't think anyone can dispute the fact he is more complete. Oh and I already voted Ronaldo. But respect for this one.
@oneniltothearsenal I have been reviewing lately former Portugal matches from the 90's like friendlies and qualifiers vs Germany. Regarding this one I will try when I can European Cup matches for Bayern or Germany at WC's. Its too much football simply to watch. But thanks.
Probably the best poacher in the game has ever seen.
Obviously not rate as highly as Cruyff and Beckenbuaer in the same era. But definitely still among top 15~20 in most people GOAT list. Around Eusebio level.
Question is, if you put him into this era, would he be rated higher? Another realistic question regarding his Ronaldo comparison, do you think he could win 5 Ballon D'or over Messi in this era? He did win once in Cruyff/Beckenbauer era though.
I have watched all of his competitive games I could find (little less than 50), so I'll try to fill in some of the missing stuff.
Contrary to the belief that Müller was a rather one-dimensional footballer, I find him very hard to pin down as a player. I'd make out four distinctive roles:
- pure center forward
- roaming striker / non-playmaking false 9
- box to box free role / defensive-minded midfielder-forward
- more or less pure defensive midfielder
The first two roles often overlapped in various mixing proportions. In some games Müller was indeed primarily the classic box-oriented striker he nowadays gets reduced to, but in others he regularly dropped deep or went wide in transition, and he could also be quite busy in defense at times. He didn't act as a playmaker when falling back (as the classic false 9 role implicates), but more as a supportive short passing combination player. The clear majority of available games are in this mould, sometimes leaning more to one role, sometimes to the other.
The rarest and most curious role is the defensive midfielder one, examples (as I see it) being Liverpool away 1971, Saint-Etienne away 1975, and the 1975 European Cup final against Leeds. In this role, Müller rarely ventured into the attacking third, often staying behind other teammates during attacks. Instead he defended lots in midfield and all over the defensive third, including in his own box and at fullback positions. In these three games combined*, he took only three shots, but had something like 40-45 defensive actions** (tackling attempts, interceptions, blocks, defensive headers). Plus much more defensive running and hustle that doesn't feature in these statistics.
The box to box free role features elements of all other roles, but often with an emphasis on defensive work as described above. Think of Griezmann in terms of workrate. Müller played these two defensive roles exclusively for Bayern, and perhaps also exclusively in the 70s. During that time, Bayern often played super-defensively in tight away games and finals. But in the return leg, Müller might well play as a pure CF again. For Germany, all available games show him as a roaming forward or box-oriented striker.
Other things are also interesting for this thread, like Müller essentially being a low volume shooter (compared to Ronaldo), but this post is long enough already.
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*17 minutes of the ASSE game are missing
** edit: recoveries included, the number will actually be a good deal higher.
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Well at least we can speculate that someone with this numbers who scored goals like a freak inside the area, knowing us that the individual awards are almost given to offensive players we can speculate that at least Ronaldo or Messi would have more trouble winning them as much.
His only problem for winning it could be the fact if he spent his entire life at Bayern. And the problem isn't the club per se but the Bundesliga. We just have to see the last Ballon D'ors are always shared between Barcelona or Real Madrid. But lets say with someone like this there is a chance even Low wouldn't have the excuse for only winning 1 WC with Germany. And winning WC's or Euros he probably would win them even if he stayed in Germany.
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If you put Messi in the top 3 then it makes no sense Ronaldo is not there. Considering the never ending debate is Ronaldo vs Messi so how can Messi be top 3 and Ronaldo not ? not much sense there. Also I'm going to be very controversial and say that despite what his name means in the sport and what he did for the sport Pele is overrated.
@Synco Thanks. First time I read about the defensive midfielder role was today by @totaalvoetbal description. Any specific reason for Footballia not having his 1976 matches for West Germany at the Euros? Can't remember if that was the Panenka year, and I do remember it was vs Germany. Anyway good information there.
They have those games, but they're not filed under Müller's games as he retired from the NT in 1974.
Didn't knew that part. Maybe Panenka wouldn't laugh in the end.
pretty sure Cristiano and Messi are more overrated than Pele.
Don't want to put fire here but... why should Ronaldo be ahead of Messi on that one? I mean, and I am not taking part on this, majority of the players, ex players, specialized media always puts Messi ahead. It is what it is, no reason to get upset.
Talent.
Perhaps he is. I don't get the same sense of magic from him relative to a Maradona for example, but of course that's based on the existing footage I've seen of him.
It’s peak vs consistency all over again. The classical Maradona vs Pelé. Would you choose a player who has reach the highest peak football world have ever seen (Maradona ‘86 WC), or a player who has best ever career, won 3 WC and scored 1000 goals? Of course both players were unquestionably the best in their era.
I'm assuming Ronaldo has more assists than Muller, though.
I'm "surprised" assist isn't considered when comparing a winger that turned into wide forward to a pure striker.
Ronaldo does not have talent ? "Messi has more talent" that may be True but talent in football is not everything and intangibles in a sport are just as valuable.
Now that's some stat.
The Bomber has the most impressive thighs and arguably the best nickname in football. Adding the quoted stat, he wins for me.
Yeah, big pinch of salt with the figures because it depends how they are measured. But, according to transfermarkt, Muller has 103 assists in 427 Bundesliga games, while Cristiano has 211 in 789 career games. So fairly similar but Cristiano a bit better.
Where did I say Ronaldo doesn't have talent? Of course he has talent, I stated previously that his position will likely rest somewhere in the following group i.e: 4 to 10. To have a chance of that a player has to be hugely talented.
Just checked myself, the difference is really minuscule, which goes to highlight der Bomber's overall game. Of course Cristiano totals are in much bigger sample, hence more difficult to maintain that level, but still Muller record is nothing short of impressive.
In my opinion Gerd's stats should be culled to just those games he played for Munich and Germany over the course of his 15 top flight seasons. His stints in the pro-am for 1861 Nördlingen and later in America for Fort Lauderdale Stikers aren't really indicative of his play at the top level.
so:
International: 68 goals, 62 games
Club: 508 goals, 565 games
so:
International: 68 goals, 62 games
Club: 508 goals, 565 games
Both players' assist counts include being fouled for a penalty, which I wouldn't count - but then again not every time, like Ronaldo in the 2014 CL final, where he was given just one assist by transfermarkt, not two.
On the other hand, today's standards seem more lenient on what counts as an assist - apparently the final pass before a goal, no matter what. For example, this pass from Azpilicueta was counted as an assist by Opta and transfermarkt:
While the pass at 0:05 from Müller wasn't by either the German league or Kicker magazine (whomever transfermarkt took as reference):
So it's definitely inconsistent, but the inconsistencies may perhaps roughly equal out in the end.
I think if folk are only going to use Muller's Bundesliga totals it's only fair to use a similar sample for Ronaldo.
Muller: 103/427 (0.241)
Ronaldo: 149/536 (0.278)
That's close but still statistically significant - over a league season Ronaldo could be said to be 10-20% more productive in this area.
Interesting. But really wondering where do they get these data from, its almost impossible they could get the assists stats back in those days, when there isn't any record of it. I can't even find the assists stats of players in the 80's (Maradona, Platini etc), let alone players from 60s and 70s.