Could they void the PL due to the Coronavirus? | No | Resuming June 17th

MuFc_1992 said:
It's wishful thinking on my part because I live there but why don't they move the league to the countries that are on the verge of opening up such as Australia and New Zealand?. The logistics would be a nightmare and the governments of those would be reluctant but If UK is unlikely to open up for next 6 months than they can probably do something like move all the personnel there, quarentine them for 14 days and restart the league. I'm now going to bed at 3:30 am fantasizing about this incredibly unlikely scenario.
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mate not that i will be complaining having games moved here , but we are mad in oz to start up our rugby league season and many think it will be an absolute disaster if anyone catches the virus what will happen ..... the only reason the nrl is starting up is that the game is on the verge of bankruptcy

remember we are about to walk into our winter down here , and we are expecting cases to rise
 
Dave Smith said:
Do that a 70%+ of teams would go bust minimum. Now way is that happening in a million years.
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Yeah not quite sure why people keep saying this, by the sounds of it we're going to be seeing football again in two weeks, granted only one league but still.
 
Dave Smith said:
Do that a 70%+ of teams would go bust minimum. Now way is that happening in a million years.
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Not really. A very hard suggestion saving lots of clubs is simple. Slash everyones wages with something in between 60-70% and you get every chance saving clubs. Or are players / managers / directors untuchable?
 
vivaronaldo said:
mate not that i will be complaining having games moved here , but we are mad in oz to start up our rugby league season and many think it will be an absolute disaster if anyone catches the virus what will happen ..... the only reason the nrl is starting up is that the game is on the verge of bankruptcy

remember we are about to walk into our winter down here , and we are expecting cases to rise
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Yeah it's probably not a good idea now but if we completely eradicate all cases than I don't see how anyone would catch the virus at stadiums if no one has it.
 
MuFc_1992 said:
Yeah it's probably not a good idea now but if we completely eradicate all cases than I don't see how anyone would catch the virus at stadiums if no one has it.
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That's one huge "if" there.
Which will takes ages and potentially until there's a vaccine.

Don't forget how rapidly this spread in the first place.
 
UncleBob said:
Nope.
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the article states:

Uefa added that if a league were to be ended early, then domestic organisers- in Scotland's case, the SPFL - will select teams to compete in next season's European competitions based on sporting merit and "on objective, transparent and non-discriminatory principles".
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
the article states:

Uefa added that if a league were to be ended early, then domestic organisers- in Scotland's case, the SPFL - will select teams to compete in next season's European competitions based on sporting merit and "on objective, transparent and non-discriminatory principles".
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If a domestic competition is prematurely terminated for legitimate reasons in accordance with the above conditions, UEFA would require the National Association concerned to select clubs for the UEFA club competitions 2020/21 based on sporting merit in the 2019/20 domestic competitions:

UEFA reserves the right to refuse or evaluate the admission to any club proposed by a National Association from a prematurely terminated domestic competition in particular where:

• the domestic competitions have not been prematurely terminated based on the reasons given in these UEFA guidelines or on the basis of any other legitimate public health reasons;

• the clubs were selected pursuant to a procedure which was not objective, transparent and non-discriminatory so that the selected clubs could not be considered as having been qualified on sporting merit;

• there is a public perception of unfairness in the qualification of the club.

So that's a no, a big no.
 
UncleBob said:
If a domestic competition is prematurely terminated for legitimate reasons in accordance with the above conditions, UEFA would require the National Association concerned to select clubs for the UEFA club competitions 2020/21 based on sporting merit in the 2019/20 domestic competitions:

UEFA reserves the right to refuse or evaluate the admission to any club proposed by a National Association from a prematurely terminated domestic competition in particular where:

• the domestic competitions have not been prematurely terminated based on the reasons given in these UEFA guidelines or on the basis of any other legitimate public health reasons;

• the clubs were selected pursuant to a procedure which was not objective, transparent and non-discriminatory so that the selected clubs could not be considered as having been qualified on sporting merit;

• there is a public perception of unfairness in the qualification of the club.

So that's a no, a big no.
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Really not sure what point your trying to make. apart from to be pedantic

you may have taken you statement “the league gets to choose” for too literally.

the league will select who goes into Europe. I wasn’t advocating the PL could decide to send Norwich into the CL.

its not going to be dictated by UEFA, merely ratified.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Really not sure what point your trying to make. apart from to be pedantic

you may have taken you statement “the league gets to choose” for too literally.

the league will select who goes into Europe. I wasn’t advocating the PL could decide to send Norwich into the CL.

its not going to be dictated by UEFA, merely ratified.
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There's no reason to present a half-truth, is there, and it's a rather important point that UEFA states it has to be based on the 19/20 season.
 
90 + 5min said:
Not really. A very hard suggestion saving lots of clubs is simple. Slash everyones wages with something in between 60-70% and you get every chance saving clubs. Or are players / managers / directors untuchable?
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Footballers pay over a 1 billion in tax, the PL over 3 billion. The PL in total contributes over 7 billion to the UK economy. Suspending their league and slashing their wages would be quite a blow.
 
90 + 5min said:
Not really. A very hard suggestion saving lots of clubs is simple. Slash everyones wages with something in between 60-70% and you get every chance saving clubs. Or are players / managers / directors untuchable?
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They may not be untouchable but if you are not paying them their full wage they would have every right to terminate the contract. Now for some it might not be an issue, not every footballer is going to want to move in the future. However players could terminate and go to other leagues, those that can afford to could simply terminate and move, for free, to a new club, etc. You would effectively completely change the face of the competition, even then many clubs would lose literally all their income. With no football what income do you think they would have to pay any of the wages and costs of the business? EFL clubs are utterly dependent on the gate revenue, and all sponsorships would be invalidated as noone will want to pay for it when there is no advertising being done. PL clubs are dependent on the TV money which they would not receive. The only clubs surviving are those with huge bank accounts or oil clubs.
 
Dave Smith said:
Do that a 70%+ of teams would go bust minimum. Now way is that happening in a million years.
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Well then the question would be what's more important, that clubs and possibly one you follow go bankrupt, or the general health of the public?

I would say the latter is more important.
 
Dave Smith said:
Do that a 70%+ of teams would go bust minimum. Now way is that happening in a million years.
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BHC sometime in the autumn is the best we can hope for.

Until there is a vaccine, there aren't going to be full crowds.Maybe socially distanced crowds - intelligent allocation for family groups - stadiums could have crowds at 25% density?

At least there 'd be an atmosphere for TV audience.

Terrible for teams that are heavily dependent on match day revenue. There may be a need to consider Pay Per View arrangements for 2020-21.
 
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bondsname said:
Well then the question would be what's more important, that clubs and possibly one you follow go bankrupt, or the general health of the public?

I would say the latter is more important.
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Other ways will be found tbh, all clubs still wont be able to survive but it won't be quite this devastating. I am not sure what we will see, I imagine we will see some BCD, then games restarting fully attended at some point. BCD is a huge issue for EFL the question is can we somehow fund it via the PL money?
 
Bizarre that some users, like @ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg , struggle so much with the concept of sticking to facts when it comes to the guidelines that UEFA wants the leagues to abide. When debating the consequences of the guidelines in terms of the PL 19/20 season, you'd think it'd be somewhat smart to have that debate based on reality.
 
UncleBob said:
Bizarre that some users, like @ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg , struggle so much with the concept of sticking to facts when it comes to the guidelines that UEFA wants the leagues to abide. When debating the consequences of the guidelines in terms of the PL 19/20 season, you'd think it'd be somewhat smart to have that debate based on reality.
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Yeah, right.

So what's the most realistic outcome in your mind?
 
Luke1995 said:
What will likely happen then ? There's just no way people can play football without spreading that thing
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It will have to be bcd. Obviously, this is still going to cause carnage in the lower leagues but bcd will help the top two leagues.

Dancfc said:
Yeah not quite sure why people keep saying this, by the sounds of it we're going to be seeing football again in two weeks, granted only one league but still.
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Personally, I am not convinced this season will resume. I reckon we will not see football until Sept/Oct and the new season will start there as by that point enough people should be tested which is the biggest problem atm.

90 + 5min said:
Not really. A very hard suggestion saving lots of clubs is simple. Slash everyones wages with something in between 60-70% and you get every chance saving clubs. Or are players / managers / directors untuchable?
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See the two posts below.

sullydnl said:
Footballers pay over a 1 billion in tax, the PL over 3 billion. The PL in total contributes over 7 billion to the UK economy. Suspending their league and slashing their wages would be quite a blow.
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Redcy said:
They may not be untouchable but if you are not paying them their full wage they would have every right to terminate the contract. Now for some it might not be an issue, not every footballer is going to want to move in the future. However players could terminate and go to other leagues, those that can afford to could simply terminate and move, for free, to a new club, etc. You would effectively completely change the face of the competition, even then many clubs would lose literally all their income. With no football what income do you think they would have to pay any of the wages and costs of the business? EFL clubs are utterly dependent on the gate revenue, and all sponsorships would be invalidated as noone will want to pay for it when there is no advertising being done. PL clubs are dependent on the TV money which they would not receive. The only clubs surviving are those with huge bank accounts or oil clubs.
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bondsname said:
Well then the question would be what's more important, that clubs and possibly one you follow go bankrupt, or the general health of the public?

I would say the latter is more important.
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Problem is, this attitude can be applied to everything. Why open up public transport/offices/pubs/cinemas/supermarkets etc?

If you keep everything closed to 2021 then there will be no economy to come back to and,despite the hysteria over Covid, that is a scenario that is significantly worse than the current situation by a significant chalk and will kill far more people. At some point very soon we need to restart the economy as otherwise the curse is going to be worse than the disease.

Obviously, things will probably have to be bcd with football but that should be possible once there is enough testing which should start rolling out in the next few months. So, no football until Sept/Oct and after that bcd until it is possible to have large crowds again.
 
Random Task said:
Yeah, right.

So what's the most realistic outcome in your mind?
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Well, obviously enough, with the current guidelines from UEFA it's clear that any solution is going to end with this seasons league table being valid, no matter if the remaining matches can be played or not, as the alternative would be no Champions League and no Europa League for English teams next season.

For me, there were always 3 possible outcomes. 1: Finish the league 2: Null and void, no winners no relegation and use the table from 18/19 for CL and EL, 3: Use the current league table

Alternative 2 is off the table, that leaves 1 and 3.
 
UncleBob said:
Well, obviously enough, with the current guidelines from UEFA it's clear that any solution is going to end with this seasons league table being valid, no matter if the remaining matches can be played or not, as the alternative would be no Champions League and no Europa League for English teams next season.

For me, there were always 3 possible outcomes. 1: Finish the league 2: Null and void, no winners no relegation and use the table from 18/19 for CL and EL, 3: Use the current league table

Alternative 2 is off the table, that leaves 1 and 3.
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Really does look that simple but it's hard to put this concept forward on a site that is in full mental gymnastics mode. Reference to Trump earlier was apt.

I would further suggest option 3 may have some sort of results weighting for teams that had games in hand left. With remdisivir failing I don't see any BCD games happening now, even to play out just the games in hand.
 
Dave Smith said:
It will have to be bcd. Obviously, this is still going to cause carnage in the lower leagues but bcd will help the top two leagues.

Personally, I am not convinced this season will resume. I reckon we will not see football until Sept/Oct and the new season will start there as by that point enough people should be tested which is the biggest problem atm.

See the two posts below.
Problem is, this attitude can be applied to everything. Why open up public transport/offices/pubs/cinemas/supermarkets etc?

If you keep everything closed to 2021 then there will be no economy to come back to and, despite the hysteria over Covid, that is a scenario that is significantly worse than the current situation by a significant chalk and will kill far more people. At some point very soon we need to restart the economy as otherwise the curse is going to be worse than the disease.

Obviously, things will probably have to be bcd with football but that should be possible once there is enough testing which should start rolling out in the next few months. So, no football until Sept/Oct and after that bcd until it is possible to have large crowds again.
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I recommend some wider reading; black swan events etc etc..
 
Imo, UEFA have stepped a bit out of bounds by taking such an active part in how the various leagues finish the season..Can easily be a disaster on their end if they can't finish this seasons CL and EL, they force other leagues on how to handle the situation and if they can't even arrange a proper CL and EL for next season.
 
Dumbstar said:
Really does look that simple but it's hard to put this concept forward on a site that is in full mental gymnastics mode. Reference to Trump earlier was apt.

I would further suggest option 3 may have some sort of results weighting for teams that had games in hand left. With remdisivir failing I don't see any BCD games happening now, even to play out just the games in hand.
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I honestly think they will go PPG now, I still don't think its right, I don't think as many do that they will do no relegations either. Again I think there would be too many issues with changing the format of the leagues to just have promotions. I think we will see teams relegated on the basis of this now, and it will be considered tough luck. What might be interesting is if those teams that go down because of PPG (say Villa), and they can't get any income from attendance/sponsors due to BCD, if they go out of business whether the owners can raise legal cases.
 
Dumbstar said:
With remdisivir failing
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Yep, and we seem to be unable to do rapid testing with any accuracy (although I haven't seen any "latest" data), we definitely wont see football for a while with any crowds.
 
Redcy said:
I honestly think they will go PPG now, I still don't think its right, I don't think as many do that they will do no relegations either. Again I think there would be too many issues with changing the format of the leagues to just have promotions. I think we will see teams relegated on the basis of this now, and it will be considered tough luck. What might be interesting is if those teams that go down because of PPG (say Villa), and they can't get any income from attendance/sponsors due to BCD, if they go out of business whether the owners can raise legal cases.
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I think it's fairer than a void personally (if we don't relegate anyone and have a one off larger league), Arsenal and Spurs taking the European spots away from Leicester and Sheffield would be a troll job.
 
To chuck my two pence worth in after following this thread since the beginning where at first and with my hatred of all things Scouse it was amusing to wind the dippers up with the possibility of the league being scrapped but not believing this was a possibility.

Move on a couple of months and the seriousness of this virus is evident and it is time without any partisan for the leaders to make big boy decisions, and stop kicking the can further down the line.

We all know this comes down to pounds shilling and pence whether this be UEFA,EPL and Sky etc and I just hope for humanity reasons that our Govt takes a leaf out the Dutch Govt playbook and ban all sporting events until September.

This in turn will enforce the league to make an executive decision one way or another which they then need to stick to at the earliest opportunity and stop all this pussy footing about with temporary amendments , which anyone who is following the news and updates, how can anyone envisage sports taking place under such circumstances.

My own opinion is that the governing bodies are secretly hoping the Govt. does take the decision out of their hands by banning all sports till much later in the year.

I hear the responses about clubs and TV companies suing one another and the lawyers making hay under such circumstances but for the love of which ever God wake up and smell the coffee people are dying in large numbers.

If the Govt were to make such a decision this would give clubs, leagues, TV company time to come up with a suitable solution and give them a get out jail card that their hands were forced by the Govt.

If law suits were brought my first defence witness woud be video’s of ICU wards, second a large number of relatives who have lost a loved one then testament’s from Doctors and nurses and let them explain why they want to see 22 men/women kicking a bag of wind around in the name of sport/money/entertainment. If any lawyer wants to argue against them they are more callous than I thought possible
 
sullydnl said:
Footballers pay over a 1 billion in tax, the PL over 3 billion. The PL in total contributes over 7 billion to the UK economy. Suspending their league and slashing their wages would be quite a blow.
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Are we talking about taxes for the country or saving clubs? There is a difference. If you want to save clubs you got to reduce money going out of the clubs. Wages are very very very big part of it. I'm well aware that there is big income for the country but soon the clubs will be shutting down and then you will not have anything going back to country. Either way you are going to lose something in this situation. There is a choice to be done. I know what I would do.

Redcy said:
They may not be untouchable but if you are not paying them their full wage they would have every right to terminate the contract. Now for some it might not be an issue, not every footballer is going to want to move in the future. However players could terminate and go to other leagues, those that can afford to could simply terminate and move, for free, to a new club, etc. You would effectively completely change the face of the competition, even then many clubs would lose literally all their income. With no football what income do you think they would have to pay any of the wages and costs of the business? EFL clubs are utterly dependent on the gate revenue, and all sponsorships would be invalidated as noone will want to pay for it when there is no advertising being done. PL clubs are dependent on the TV money which they would not receive. The only clubs surviving are those with huge bank accounts or oil clubs.
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Of course they are. But with no football being played for a couple of months and surly more what is your option? You can't just pay wages but not getting anything in. It will soon end in bankruptcy. We are already hearing about (uncomfirmed) alarming reports from some of the bigger clubs.

Players contract? You are right, there is a big risk that it would be seen as a breach of contracts. Maybe players would move on. Maybe don't. This is a new situation for pretty much everyone. But situation is almost identical everywhere. So wherever they move they would not be getting the money they think they should.

Dave Smith said:
See the two posts below.
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See the two posts above :)
 
90 + 5min said:
Are we talking about taxes for the country or saving clubs? There is a difference. If you want to save clubs you got to reduce money going out of the clubs. Wages are very very very big part of it. I'm well aware that there is big income for the country but soon the clubs will be shutting down and then you will not have anything going back to country. Either way you are going to lose something in this situation. There is a choice to be done. I know what I would do.


Of course they are. But with no football being played for a couple of months and surly more what is your option? You can't just pay wages but not getting anything in. It will soon end in bankruptcy. We are already hearing about (uncomfirmed) alarming reports from some of the bigger clubs.

Players contract? You are right, there is a big risk that it would be seen as a breach of contracts. Maybe players would move on. Maybe don't. This is a new situation for pretty much everyone. But situation is almost identical everywhere. So wherever they move they would not be getting the money they think they should.


See the two posts above :)
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It will be regardless of wages though, many clubs still have massive outgoings outside of wages. I think we will see BCD, and some kind of package to try and rescue lower leagues clubs from the FA. As I said I can see say for example Pogba taking the chance to get out on a free, knowing when football eventually returns he might get more money at madrid if they dont have to pay 60-80m for him
 
Dancfc said:
I think it's fairer than a void personally (if we don't relegate anyone and have a one off larger league), Arsenal and Spurs taking the European spots away from Leicester and Sheffield would be a troll job.
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Is there any precedent elsewhere or say in the EFL for it? I know it changed when the PL came about, but any other examples I suppose. I agree it would be harsh though to null and void, but I think any other solution would involve treating some teams differently/better than others. For example we have to play lots of lower teams, Chelsea have harder teams to play. Thats without getting into the Brightons and Villas.

I think they will relegate teams, and just take the ensuing legal fight on the chin. Personally I think voiding the league would be fairer only because it treats every team exactly the same. My statement about the EFL would still stand if we did that for example, I am aware that for example Leeds could go out of business if they are in the EFL, whereas they may stay afloat in the PL.

My feeling is that the PL will survive and we might end up with 40% of teams in the EFL going bankrupt.
 
UncleBob said:
Well, enough, with the current guidelines from UEFA it's clear that any solution is going to end with this seasons league table being valid, no matter if the remaining matches can be played or not, as the alternative would be no Champions League and no Europa League for English teams next season.

For me, there were always 3 possible outcomes. 1: Finish the league 2: Null and void, no winners no relegation and use the table from 18/19 for CL and EL, 3: Use the current league table

Alternative 2 is off the table, that leaves 1 and 3.
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Why is the second option off the table when it is by far the safest of the three regarding public health? Strange.

Your first option is out of the question in the current climate.

Playing behind closed doors is also out of the question as it does nothing for the lower league clubs who are desperate for gate receipts simple to stay afloat.
 
Dancfc said:
I think it's fairer than a void personally (if we don't relegate anyone and have a one off larger league), Arsenal and Spurs taking the European spots away from Leicester and Sheffield would be a troll job.
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I agree, which is why I think no one should qualify based on the current standings.

Close the current season, wipe it from the record books, and begin anew when it's safest to do so - whenever that may be - using last seasons placements as a guide for European qualification.
 
Random Task said:
Why is the second option off the table when it is by far the safest of the three regarding public health? Strange.

Your first option is out of the question in the current climate.

Playing behind closed doors is also out of the question as it does nothing for the lower league clubs who are desperate for gate receipts simple to stay afloat.
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It's in the post you quoted....with the current guidelines from UEFA

 
So, Dutch league has gone for no promotion/relegation/handing titles put to people that are not mathematically champions. Very sensible.
 
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