Could they void the PL due to the Coronavirus? | No | Resuming June 17th

[Finn MacCool]

You can't compare to WW2, come on. Football is a multi billion pound industry with hundreds of thousands of jobs reliant on it.

I seriously think some on here struggle to see beyond a club badge or a squad of 25 players.

Absolutely and in any case the season was abandoned after 3 games in early Sept 1939 so its hardly comparable to the current season where 29 games have been played. But a pandemic is fundamentally different to a world war so any sort of comparison will always be flawed.

And as an aside football did actually continue during the war - I think it was just regionalised and wasn't counted in terms of records.

 

[Dave Smith]

While i think no more games is the smart money i just don't see voiding. I think they'll come up with some madcap scheme over that.

You could make a decent argument that void is fair for teams in the middle of the table who aren't going down or making Europe. But for the rest (approx 2/3) its hard to say it's fair and its definitely not the fairest.

The problem with average point/as it is or any other madcap idea is that it sets a precedent which will then set the rules for things in the future. Therefore, if put to a vote, I see absolutely no chance if either happening because in any given season 10-12 clubs think, if things go south, they could get relegated.

This year I would class these clubs as; Watford, West Ham, Southampton, Villa, Newcastle, Norwich, Bournemouth, Palace, Brighton, Burnley and Sheff Utd, which is 11. Therefore, why would any of these teams vote for a proposal that could end up getting them relegated in future seasons if the leagues have to stop again? Shef Utd may vote for such a thing as it will give them Ropey League but I think that is only a maybe. However, for arguements sake lets say they do, which still means 10 teams from the current lot will vote against it.

After that you have 10 teams that are split into three camps. Camp 1 is Spuds and Le Arse who directly benefit from a void. Camp 2 is Dippers, Leicester and (maybe) Shef Utd who benefit with a average point/as it is. Camp 3 has Utd, Wolves, Chelsea, Everton and City who have no skin in the game as any situation gives them the exact same outcome.

That consequently, gives 12 v 3 in favour of void, with 5 undecided. However, to vote for a change to the PL rules you need a minimum of 14 votes, so of that 5 there would only need to be 2 that went with void to win it and even if they all did vote for the average point/as it is, it would just end in stalemate.

Therefore, in my opinion, if the season cannot be finished, and it has to be voted on, void will win every day of the week.

The only place where I differ from some is that I do not think they will have the balls to deny the Dippers the title, so on top of the void they will add the condition the Dippers can have a pity title in order to avoid;

A) The Dippers going out in their droves burning PL flags
B) Dippers sitching black armbands onto every top they own
C) The Dippers rioting
D) Having to listen to the Dippers then blame PL and other teams for the damage that they cause for said riot.
E) The Dipper media having a complete meltdown and talking about the injustice of it all for the next 50 years.

 

[Amir]

The Dutch government have just announced all events, including professional football, are cancelled untill at least September.

I can see other leagues and countries following them.

 

[Member 101269]

So many are worried about clubs suing. I’m of a different view. There has been an outcry over a couple of players not taking one for the team imagine the brand damage: outcry if a clubs isn’t awarded a title pl or efl because they didn’t meet the conditions to be awarded a title and the season was void and they start legal proceedings.

Just saying they’ll look like complete w.......

 

[Sandikan]

The problem with average point/as it is or any other madcap idea is that it sets a precedent which will then set the rules for things in the future. Therefore, if put to a vote, I see absolutely no chance if either happening because in any given season 10-12 clubs think, if things go south, they could get relegated.

This year I would class these clubs as; Watford, West Ham, Southampton, Villa, Newcastle, Norwich, Bournemouth, Palace, Brighton, Burnley and Sheff Utd, which is 11. Therefore, why would any of these teams vote for a proposal that could end up getting them relegated in future seasons if the leagues have to stop again? Shef Utd may vote for such a thing as it will give them Ropey League but I think that is only a maybe. However, for arguements sake lets say they do, which still means 10 teams from the current lot will vote against it.

After that you have 10 teams that are split into three camps. Camp 1 is Spuds and Le Arse who directly benefit from a void. Camp 2 is Dippers, Leicester and (maybe) Shef Utd who benefit with a average point/as it is. Camp 3 has Utd, Wolves, Chelsea, Everton and City who have no skin in the game as any situation gives them the exact same outcome.

That consequently, gives 12 v 3 in favour of void, with 5 undecided. However, to vote for a change to the PL rules you need a minimum of 14 votes, so of that 5 there would only need to be 2 that went with void to win it and even if they all did vote for the average point/as it is, it would just end in stalemate.

Therefore, in my opinion, if the season cannot be finished, and it has to be voted on, void will win every day of the week.

The only place where I differ from some is that I do not think they will have the balls to deny the Dippers the title, so on top of the void they will add the condition the Dippers can have a pity title in order to avoid;

A) The Dippers going out in their droves burning PL flags
B) Dippers sitching black armbands onto every top they own
C) The Dippers rioting
D) Having to listen to the Dippers then blame PL and other teams for the damage that they cause for said riot.
E) The Dipper media having a complete meltdown and talking about the injustice of it all for the next 50 years.

It'd be interesting to see the nation's reaction to a voiding, yet title winner awarded!

 

[Sandikan]

Well I wouldn't want that, Ole doing the treble over Pep and Lampard have been immensely enjoyable this season

I wouldn't worry about that sort of thing, but it'd be a real shame for our youngsters to lose goals and appearances.

At my other club Akinfenwa recently became our all time top scorer in league history! So that'd be absolutely gutting to see that taken away.

He's 35/36 and out of contract at the end of this season. I really hope we haven't seen his last game.

 

[TheReligion]

So why is 'null & void' the best option for Manchester United FC ? If there is European football next season surely you'd want to be playing in the Champions League, & the only way that's possible is if you finish top 4, or if City's ban is upheld.

It's not. I'm not pushing what's best for my club. I'm pushing what's common sense, reduces risks and treats everyone equally.

That's the difference!

 

[Member 101269]

The Dutch government have just announced all events, including professional football, are cancelled untill at least September.

Good.

At last some leadership. Now we’ll see other leagues following suit

Reading this back and forth is really bizarre.

Surely anyone with a brain can see the only two ways the everyone gets treated fairly and equally are to finish club seasons across the board or null and void them. If you can't finish them, which may well be the case, then null and void is the only way to ensure no one is treated differently. How this affects each individual club is unfortunately irrelevant and is totally out of the FA's control. What they can say though is they treated every club the same and when all said and done that's the actual key to all of this being resolved and avoiding any legal implications.

To think this isn't been discussed and is of huge importance is very naive.

Agree with you; all are equal now because none have met the conditions to be relegated, win, Europe or whatever

 

[Buchan]

The Dutch government have just announced all events, including professional football, are cancelled untill at least September.

RAWK: ‘What are they smoking over there, la?’

 

[Sandikan]

The Dutch government have just announced all events, including professional football, are cancelled untill at least September.

Good.

At last some leadership. Now we’ll see other leagues following suit

Cancelled as in this season is voided, and next season will start from Sep?

Or just postponed.

If it's the latter, it's not hugely different from what our league has done - we have put it back a couple of times.

 

[TheReligion]

You’re missing the point, he’s not talking about MUFC, he’s expressing an opinion on what is the simplest and fairest solution for the majority of clubs rather than just concentrating on one.

You could make a decent argument that void is fair for teams in the middle of the table who aren't going down or making Europe. But for the rest (approx 2/3) its hard to say it's fair and its definitely not the fairest.

The fairest thing is to treat all teams in exactly the same way. Only one action does that...

How does the outcome of a voided season affect all teams equally?

If it's the fairest way of doing things why hasn't it been discussed by those who have the power to make such decisions ?

But it did and that's the problem with voiding. you can't wish away 75% of the season. Countless teams lose the opportunity to achieve stuff. The argument to finish the season is not based on what's guaranteed otherwise if everything was already guaranteed then why not call it quits now and have the current standings final.

Reading this back and forth is really bizarre.

Surely anyone with a brain can see the only two ways the everyone gets treated fairly and equally are to finish club seasons across the board or null and void them. If you can't finish them, which may well be the case, then null and void is the only way to ensure no one is treated differently. How this affects each individual club is unfortunately irrelevant and is totally out of the FA's control. What they can say though is they treated every club the same and when all said and done that's the actual key to all of this being resolved and avoiding any legal implications.

To think this isn't been discussed and is of huge importance is very naive.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

If it's the fairest way of doing things why hasn't it been discussed by those who have the power to make such decisions ?

Probably because finishing the season is the top priority, and deciding to not do that at this stage could be premature. All the noise coming out of the decision making bodies is to finish the season, and anything else would be a last resort.

Anything other than finishing the season is somewhat controversial. I'd say voiding the season is the least controversial of all the discussed contingency plans, as using final standings sends a lot of teams down who had plenty of time to survive.

 

[Finn MacCool]

Reading this back and forth is really bizarre.

Surely anyone with a brain can see the only two ways the everyone gets treated fairly and equally are to finish club seasons across the board or null and void them. If you can't finish them, which may well be the case, then null and void is the only way to ensure no one is treated differently. How this affects each individual club is unfortunately irrelevant and is totally out of the FA's control. What they can say though is they treated every club the same and when all said and done that's the actual key to all of this being resolved and avoiding any legal implications.

To think this isn't been discussed and is of huge importance is very naive.

And there is this thread in 3 words.

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.

 

[Dumbstar]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

 

[Sky1981]

The fa should just close this season. Use the league table as it is as final. With the rest of the matches declared void due to force majeur.

Grant liverpool their title and be done with it.

If some got relegated by virtue of goal difference then tough fecking luck love. Life isnt fair.

 

[thegregster]

This means it is almost certainly now impossible for the KNVB to finish the Eredivisie or Keueken Kampioen Divisie seasons. The games cannot be played without fans, as it will still require police to be present.


https://www.football-oranje.com/ere...-football-in-the-netherlands-until-september/

Basically the mayor's in Holland won't provide policing for games behind closed doors till Sep at the earliest.

Can't say I blame them. It would be a joke to use such valuable resources at this time.

 

[RobinLFC]

This means it is almost certainly now impossible for the KNVB to finish the Eredivisie or Keueken Kampioen Divisie seasons. The games cannot be played without fans, as it will still require police to be present.


https://www.football-oranje.com/ere...-football-in-the-netherlands-until-september/

Basically the mayor's in Holland won't provide policing for games behind closed doors till Sep at the earliest.

Can't say I blame them. It would be a joke to use such valuable resources at this time.

I can't see anything about police in the official statement of Rutte nor in the offical Dutch press release. Don't see how police is a "valuable resource" either to be honest.

The KNVB, with or without fans, falls under the "licensed events" category and that's why it'll be binned until 1 September.

 

[Sandikan]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

These are all division 2 type leagues at best.

Let's see what Spain and Italy do, and then what we do before getting too smug.

 

[duffer]

The fa should just close this season. Use the league table as it is as final. With the rest of the matches declared void due to force majeur.

Grant liverpool their title and be done with it.

If some got relegated by virtue of goal difference then tough fecking luck love. Life isnt fair.

No victory parade, no celebration at full time, no winning goal, no going mad in a pub or at home with friends and family. Fans of other sides not recognising it as a proper win and an asterisk next to it forever.

It'll be the shittest title win ever. Totally unfair on Liverpool.

Make it so.

 

[Zexstream]

Whatever happens the fun and enjoyment has been lost now.

Even Liverpool fans may enjoy the league win but they cant celebrate it as they would and should have been able too.

Id rather we just end the damn thing one way or another and hope for a better next season.

 

[stevoc]

How many teams lose out on opportunities they have worked hard to achieve? Answer = 9 give or take

You can't lose out on an achievement you haven't yet achieved which is my point, every team would be in the same boat starting from scratch. It would affect all teams equally.

Which teams get a free pass when they were likely to be relegated? A = 3

Conclusion - voiding is fair for a smaller number of teams but unfair for a larger number.

Theres 3 teams on 27 points one of those in the relegation zone only on GD and Villa on 25 with a game in hand. Which 2 out of those 4 teams were likely to go down?

Which proves my point no solution is fair to all teams equally other than scrubbing the season if it can't be completed.

 

[Bullhitter]

But it hasn't been completed and completing it may not be possible. And thats the point of a null and void every team is treated the same, every team loses the chance to qualify for Europe or escape relegation. If you just go off the current standings then lots of teams lose out on things unfairly while others teams benefit from the current standings. Null and Void puts everyone in the same boat.

I'll ask again, if the season was null and void which team loses out on anything they were guaranteed?

None is the answer.

Yes none is the answer, well done and if that's the level to which you are willing to discuss and debate then another well done and it can be left there.

I don't understand these arguments. There's no difference whether it's a new season or a continuation of the old, football will restart in either case.

You are missing my point entirely. I am of the opinion that football will not be played for months and that when it resumes there will be another 4-10 week delay around winter time which means something has to give somewhere and what makes the most sense to give is the end of this season but without relegating teams without them having had their full quota of games to defend their league status. That is my fundamental argument with the secondary thought being to not deny teams that are a long way to reaching a goal in terms of promotion.

Fact is most here are United fans or fans of PL teams and are only looking at it from that perspective. I am looking at this from a purely football perspective. How anybody can be fine with a team being relegated on goal difference while being denied their remaining 9 games to rectify the situation or another team being denied a promotion spot they are currently in possession of is beyond me. And 99% would sing a different tune completely if it was their side in such positions.

 

[TheReligion]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

I'm sure the EPL will be keen to follow in the footsteps of those other big money power leagues..

 

[Dave Smith]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

Dutch league have not confirmed what they are doing yet. Scotland have also not confirmed what is happening with the SPFL title yet, either. Apart from that, great factual post.

 

[Buchan]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

“18.76315789 times, la.”

 

[ReddBalls]

It is kind of bizarre reading this thread with posters claiming "The PL won't dare to deny the scousers the league" and "There will be lawsuits if this or that happens" and so on. First rule of discussion is knowing the basics of what you discuss. When it comes to this discussion, that would be to know who's making the decisions regarding The Premier League..

Well, guess what? The PL is a company fully owned by the clubs that make up the league, and the ultimate decision-making forum is the shareholder meeting (as in any other privately owned company). The shareholders would be the clubs. These shareholders might agree that the best course of action is finishing the league as it stands, but that would not be because "they won't deny the scouser their title", it would be because the majority of the shareholders would benefit from it and therefore vote for that solution. The clubs who would suffer from whatever decision is made won't be able to sue the PL either, as they as shareholders were a part in making the decision.

It's not as this is information buried deep either, it's stated on the Premier League website.

 

[charlenefan]

I wouldn't worry about that sort of thing, but it'd be a real shame for our youngsters to lose goals and appearances.

At my other club Akinfenwa recently became our all time top scorer in league history! So that'd be absolutely gutting to see that taken away.

He's 35/36 and out of contract at the end of this season. I really hope we haven't seen his last game.

I did think about that as well, wiping the likes of Rashford's best ever goal scoring season would suck

 

[Dumbstar]

Dutch league have not confirmed what they are doing yet. Scotland have also not confirmed what is happening with the SPFL title yet, either. Apart from that, great factual post.

Re-read my post and my deliberate wording. Saw this reply coming a mile off.

 

[Dumbstar]

These are all division 2 type leagues at best.

Let's see what Spain and Italy do, and then what we do before getting too smug.

Masks might be in short supply but at least we have straws. Come on non-shit leagues, make your move. The world is depending on you.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

Ever heard of Brexit pal?

 

[Finn MacCool]

You can't lose out on an achievement you haven't yet achieved which is my point, every team would be in the same boat starting from scratch. It would affect all teams equally.



Theres 3 teams on 27 points one of those in the relegation zone only on GD and Villa on 25 with a game in hand. Which 2 out of those 4 teams were likely to go down?

Which proves my point no solution is fair to all teams equally other than scrubbing the season if it can't be completed.

You lose out on the opportunity to achieve it - is that really so difficult to grasp? As far as being in the same boat, well if we finish the season we will all be in the same boat starting next season so I suppose you're half right.

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

The Scottish premiership season hasn’t been concluded. Celtic haven’t been given the title and Hearts haven’t been confirmed as relegated to the Championship. The recent vote was for ending the lower leagues, so they can pay out the prize money now to the lower league clubs. Null and void was never an option up here in Scotland simply because many of the clubs, particularly the part time ones up here could have ended up going bust if the season was just null & voided and no money was paid out. The SPFL are waiting for confirmation from UEFA that they can end the premiership season now. That is something Hearts owner Ann Budge is completely against and is now trying to gather support and lead a reconstruction task force to push for yet again another vote across all 4 Scottish divisions, this time for league reconstruction for next season which will see the premiership expanded from 12 teams to 14 or potentially 16 and no relegations for her Hearts team (unsurprisingly) and neither for Partick Thistle & Stranraer.

 

[Heinzesight]

It’s properly eating away at these loveable Scousers now. You can start to see the panic and desperation in their posts...”but, but this...Belgium that.”

The majority of United fans don’t want a Liverpool league win. Simple. But the flip side is if they do legitimately win the thing or they're somehow gifted the pity version of the title, then their celebrations will be akin to a wet fart.

Any other team, maybe even City, I’d have some sympathy...but not these shit-slinging bastards.

 

[SharpshooterTom]

Just so this is clear (to certain Utd posters mainly), three European countries have now said there will be no more football. That's it. Now pay attention certain Utd posters:

Belgium - announced league winner despite 9 more games to be played (ask any Belgian poster on here)

Holland - about to announce Ajax league winners despite leading the table...drum roll... on goal difference. In fact I counted at least any of the top 10 teams are still mathematically in with a chance of being league champions

Scotland - Celtic being announced winners despite Rangers well in it mathematically. Worse still for, legal nightmare folks here, Hearts are being relegated despite 6 other teams that could still take their place if the season was played out

England? - null and void it, innit

I've not read anywhere on the bbc website where it says Ajax are going to awarded the title on goal difference. Just says its going to be cancelled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52376543

 

[SER19]

I reckon they might end it and call it as it is if European leagues lead the way.

Course everybody will chalk it off as a season that doesn't count though. Would be like winning the boxing because the other fighter fell on the way to the ring. Asterix forever more

 

[stevoc]

Yes none is the answer, well done and if that's the level to which you are willing to discuss and debate then another well done and it can be left there.

We weren't even having a discussion.

 

[Dumbstar]

I've not read anywhere on the bbc website where it says Ajax are going to awarded the title on goal difference. Just says its going to be cancelled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52376543

Yep the news seems to be changing by the hour, there was clear mention earlier on some sites that it's likely Ajax and Celtic will get the titles - still is likely, but more notable is the complete absence of mentioning nulling and voiding the whole season. That bit has still not come into the conversation even now. So the general expectation is to have some sort of final standing in these countries.

 

[Sad Chris]

Changed "effect" to "affect", and you're spot on, my man

Cheers. I really own that mistake.

 

[stevoc]

You lose out on the opportunity to achieve it - is that really so difficult to grasp?

You tell me mate you're the one having problems wrapping your head around the fact you can't lose something you don't yet have. As for opportunities every team would be losing opportunities but every team would be being treated equally. And they'll have those same opportunities to achieve something in the following season.

I notice you dodge every question i've put to you, fair enough but i was genuinely interested in your thoughts on my last question. You seem to think 3 teams were likely to go down, ok but which ones though?

Which teams get a free pass when they were likely to be relegated? A = 3

Theres 3 teams on 27 points one of those in the relegation zone only on GD and Villa on 25 with a game in hand. Which 2 out of those 4 teams were likely to go down?

 

[Bullhitter]

We weren't even having a discussion.

Not directly no, but we were at the same time arguing different sides of the same debate. Just guaging whether you were actually looking to debate the issue as your repeated use of the word guarantee doesn't indicate you are. Nobody is claiming anybody is guaranteed anything so as i said if that's your immovable barometer then it makes little sense to even engage offering the other side.