Wait, when exactly did that happen?
Coronavirus Draft - R1 - EAP vs Himannv
- Thread starter GodShaveTheQueen
- Start date
Gazika Mendieta:
An all-around midfielder, who had an excellent technique, top tackling skills, and great vision, as he was capable of creating goals both for himself and his teammates. Named the best European midfielder for both seasons, as he scored five in 1999-00 and four in 2000-01 on the way to the final. He was the driving force behind Valencia's driving the ball forward. Also has a knack for arriving late at the box unmarked and score from edge of box.
An all-around midfielder, who had an excellent technique, top tackling skills, and great vision, as he was capable of creating goals both for himself and his teammates. Named the best European midfielder for both seasons, as he scored five in 1999-00 and four in 2000-01 on the way to the final. He was the driving force behind Valencia's driving the ball forward. Also has a knack for arriving late at the box unmarked and score from edge of box.
Wait, when exactly did that happen?
Another titbit of a stat:
+ He's faced Allen Simonsen thrice without letting any goals in.
+ During his peak 3 years (1979-80, 1980-81, 1981-81) he has faced Kalle Rummenigge in 8 games with only 1 goal scored against him. Ironically in those 8 matches Briegel has scored 3 goals
Though not Messi, Both Simonsen and Kalle are similar mobile forwards who can operated as right wingers too.
Just to note, this was during the period when Simonsen (1977) and Kalle (1980, 81 and second in 1979) were at their peak and win their Balon d'Or awards.
+ He's faced Allen Simonsen thrice without letting any goals in.
+ During his peak 3 years (1979-80, 1980-81, 1981-81) he has faced Kalle Rummenigge in 8 games with only 1 goal scored against him. Ironically in those 8 matches Briegel has scored 3 goals
Though not Messi, Both Simonsen and Kalle are similar mobile forwards who can operated as right wingers too.
Just to note, this was during the period when Simonsen (1977) and Kalle (1980, 81 and second in 1979) were at their peak and win their Balon d'Or awards.
Amoros is the more attacking of the two obviously. I had Alves and Abidal in mind when I picked Amoros and Bossis. I've spent a bit of time watching videos of Messi and Ronaldinho play together before I actually picked them in this setup. I found that Alves was always making himself an option for Messi when he played on the right, while Ronaldinho never really bothered looking for a fullback unless he was just receiving the ball under pressure and passing it back.
Thanks, that makes sense.
Yeah I agree.
There are two more reasons to add to that:
1. With active players you still have the unknown variable whether or not that player could be "found out". For example look what happened to Boateng and Alaba. 5-6 years ago those two and Hummels too were the next best things and regularly picked in all time drafts. Yet after couple of mediocre performances at high level and also waning down after their initial peak people forgot about them and their reputation crashed.
2. Particular matchups that can pretty much destroy someone's legacy. Case in point is Maicon. Without those games against Bale, most likely he would be regarded much higher than he is. At the time before that happened he was raved as a better player than Dani Alves and also was preferred in the NT to him.
If we go with 3 years peak those active players will be regarded in higher esteem after a decade, but you do have the benefit of hindsight and evaluate them on their whole career and when it's all said and done.
Gave this to EAP by a thin margin. Well argued.
thats the thing, if someone done those things to someone from lets say 60s it would be forgotten as we only remember good things from those players, specially defenders.
But lets stop here, not really a place for that debate.
Another titbit of a stat:
+ He's faced Allen Simonsen thrice without letting any goals in.
+ During his peak 3 years (1979-80, 1980-81, 1981-81) he has faced Kalle Rummenigge in 8 games with only 1 goal scored against him. Ironically in those 8 matches Briegel has scored 3 goals
Though not Messi, Both Simonsen and Kalle are similar mobile forwards who can operated as right wingers too.
Just to note, this was during the period when Simonsen (1977) and Kalle (1980, 81 and second in 1979) were at their peak and win their Balon d'Or awards.
Just to add to this...
Not many games, but Breigel vs Right Wingers below:
- Conti: 8 games, 1 goal by Briegel. None by Conti
- Causio: 5 games, 1 goal by Causio (a year before Briegel retired)
He has a stellar record against most wingers and even the high profile mistakes in NT came near to the end of his career. At his Kaiserslautern peak, he was rock solid and actually scored a bit too. 47 goals in 240 games is not a bad return for a fullback at all!
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Sorry, am sober for way too long.
Why are you citing Briegel's record against random right wingers/forwards?
Why are you citing Briegel's record against random right wingers/forwards?
Briegel also played central midfield in most of these occasions I reckon.
I can totally believe that this was/is the perception, but I think it undervalues Boateng's peak - and the Alaba comparison is a good indicator for that.
Alaba didn't quite fulfill his early promise after hitting his mid-20s, but Boateng was the real deal for about 4 seasons. That includes consistency (more so than Hummels), big game performance, club + NT performance, titles, pretty much everything.
I also don't think he actually got "found out" (I know you put it in quotes). There are different views about him, but imo it was mainly injury troubles that got the better of him - his athleticism was crucial for his interceptor style, and lack of fitness affected his form. More comparable to Schweinsteiger in that regard than Alaba, as I see it.
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this, Boateng was brilliant but there is no point in picking him as you pretty much going into game with 1 centerback.....
Interestingly, there are other players with a comparably short peak, who by consensus are accepted to be played as their peak version - Riva & Mendieta for example. (Which I think is good.)
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different rules for players that played post 2005 cca
There seems to be a view that Briegel is somehow weak against tricky wingers. Trying to see how his overall performance against wingers is to try and disprove that. From what I can see, his peak was super solid in Kaiserlautern.
In the 1982 WC final, Briegel conceded a penalty by fouling Conti.
Congrats on the win @Himannv
@Edgar Allan Pillow , stick around for the Coropa league reinforcements and QF games.
@Edgar Allan Pillow , stick around for the Coropa league reinforcements and QF games.
Congrats @Himannv
Now that this is over, I have to say I'm somewhat surprised by the trend of not rating current defenders highly. I saw this in the last draft with Varane and I'm seeing it now with VVD. I feel players like Mbappe get a free pass at times, but we seem a bit more negative when it comes to defenders. Now, I can somewhat understand the sentiment with Varane, since he's had a few injury-hit seasons and there have been periods of poor form. However, with VVD it's mind boggling. I mean, this is the signing that took Liverpool from being also-rans to being the best team in Europe. Take him out of the team and their defence immediately suffers and they go back to being also-rans. He has the skills, accolades, and performances to be rated highly enough for an all-time draft IMO. Of course, he wouldn't be in the top two tiers, but he's certainly good enough to feature in these games at least, especially if he has the right skills to fit the system.
Yeah, I agree with that. I think down the line he will get a bit more credit when his career is all set and done.
I think it’s not fair to write him off when a lot of inferior center backs are getting picked regularly, but I’ve said many times that I just can’t even half-objectively rate current players. I mean, he’s already worse than he was last season and who knows if he’s going to reach that level again... but, as it is with pretty much all modern players who aren’t semi-retired, in my head I’m rating him by his current form and not by his peak.
Defenders are struggling the most, since the way defending is done today differences significantly even from the 00’s. Everyone is using aggressive pressing nowadays, and top defenders 95% of the time need to keep the line and recycle possession instead of playing one-on-one.
Defenders are struggling the most, since the way defending is done today differences significantly even from the 00’s. Everyone is using aggressive pressing nowadays, and top defenders 95% of the time need to keep the line and recycle possession instead of playing one-on-one.
To me VVD has had 2 seasons at top level so far - this one hasn't even finished and he was brought in midseason in 17/18. Obviously he had a great season last year, but so did players like Sneijder, Forlan, Torres and many others that had short peaks and looked like world beaters at the time.
Take Forlan for example - Pichichi winner in 08/09, WC golden ball in 2010 and top goalscorer. Outscored Messi, Villa, Eto'o, two times Golden Boot winner, 5 seasons in 6 scoring +20 goals in all comps, yet no one would even think about him getting picked in all time draft.
I've seen VVD play for Holland and in some games he was mediocre to downright poor. This year they were taken out by Atletico side that could've easily scored 2-3 more in the first leg, in 17/18 Roma put 6 past them in 2 games and Real 3 past them in the final. Whilst obviously lot is down to Karius he didn't cover himself in glory in those 2 games in the SF's.
This year he's not at the same level last year and even in their last year CL campaign they won it after a monumental Barca feck up in the SF's where they could easily put them on double digits if players like Dembele materialized clear cut chances.
Obviously he's one of the best defenders in the world right now(probably the best in the last 2 years), but again, compared to all time I wouldn't put him in the top 50 yet, let alone compared to someone like Lucio who didn't even get picked.
VVD won't be rated for a decent few years for sure. How often does Torres get picked here? Can anyone argue that Torres' peak was any less than VVD's? Torres' was arguably in a stronger era as well. Featured on ballon d'or podiums as well
That is where longevity comes in. 3 years is the bare minimum considered in drafts, but most people look for a fair bit more.
The likes of Varane and VVD are/were in the best phases of their career just recently which is why you see the love in drafts here and there from managers. Boateng went through a same phase of being picked often during his short peak and now no one gives a feck.
Might as well prove to be world beaters in years to come, but fair to let it unfold.
That is where longevity comes in. 3 years is the bare minimum considered in drafts, but most people look for a fair bit more.
The likes of Varane and VVD are/were in the best phases of their career just recently which is why you see the love in drafts here and there from managers. Boateng went through a same phase of being picked often during his short peak and now no one gives a feck.
Might as well prove to be world beaters in years to come, but fair to let it unfold.
I actually think the 3 year peak thing needs enforcing better. For every pick you should highlight which 3 seasons you are using, and that in turn could bring the contemporary players in with a fighting chance
Thing about VVD he only really has 2 top class seasons, even this year he's looked a bit shaky recently. Also there's a difference between being good for a few seasons and over a prolonged period. Modric and Godin are good examples of this, despite being current players they have a larger body of work which adds a lot more to their credentials.
Even the 3 year rating is flawed for me, I'm always going to rate the guy who had more than 3 seasons at a same level than the guys who had 3 and fell off. And this is where someone like Boateng rightly gets written off.
I think the problem is a lack of clarity how much peak or long-term consistency count in a draft match.
It says "career peak" above the voting section, but in the Top 30 lists for example, longevity and career achievements obviously play a crucial part.
Edit: @P-Nut was faster
It says "career peak" above the voting section, but in the Top 30 lists for example, longevity and career achievements obviously play a crucial part.
Edit: @P-Nut was faster
Which also tends to overrate players based on current status in draft games.
I mean, just to elaborate on player like Lucio who didn't get picked.
We take VVD two top seasons yet Lucio won the treble with Inter, won the WC in 2002, everything possible in Germany, runner up in CL with Leverkusen whilst being a key figure in all those campaigns, yet he's often overlooked, despite proving himself in different leagues, clubs and international stage and doing it almost a decade apart.
We saw with Alaba how the potential didn't turn out to be what he initially promised and how he fell off the radar.
its not though, you use a certain version of a player in draft so lets use Ronaldo/Messi as example....you cant get goalscoring machine Ronaldo and a flying winger in the same time like you cant get a alien version of Messi and a lazy playmaking God together.
3 years peak is fine and tbf we should get back to stating which years we use in the formation pictures.
To acknowledge players with longevity we can maybe play Career draft where we look at more at achievements then performances though many doing that already.
Yeah this was my point really. The question comes up in the games of which version are you using, but really it should be enforced much tougher and would enable modern players to have a similar sized sample to compare across
That is not realistic to execute except with goats. The average voter wouldn't be able to differentiate between general impression and 3 year peaks of most other players from tier 2.
I'd rather prefer we don't allow any current players under the age of 30
Conflating two different criteria here though. Atleast with both versions of Messi and Ronaldo you are getting GOAT level player. If you pick someone like Torres you have an incredible peak followed by years of mediocrity. Overall consistency should not be ignored.
But its even more evident for defenders who for most have the same style throughout their career.
So likes of Dinho and Fenomeno should be seen as lesser players to i dont know, Giggs because one was great for a decade while party boys lasted only few years?
Torres should be judged and is judged on a period of 3 years, situation is that competition for strikers is so big that even that 3 year peak he had is not good enough in a open pool.
Either scrap the 3 year peak and find a definite way of judging players that is clear to everyone or stick to the 3 years peak. There is no other way and this moving of goalposts how it suits us is the reason we are in this mess and this is a debate.
This. Rating players before they have pretty much got close to retiring, or at least finished at the highest level, makes rating them very difficult in an all-time draft
I could get behind this. Eliminates the problem entirely.
I also agree with this.
If we're eliminating players based on lack of evidence can we ban players born before a certain date as well then? We're going on hearsay and 1 full game for evidence. If 10 years of footage of say a 29 year old isn't enough to judge then how on earth is one 90 minute game?