Coronavirus Champions League - Grand Finale - Enigma/Pat vs Sjor/Invictus

[Šjor Bepo]

I know you love him, but I really can't agree with this. KdB has achieved virtually nothing in CL and has been playing in a very dominant and possession heavy City team in PL.

When having a multiple playmakers in the team like here with Zidane and KdB I'd probably like to see them having more of the ball and the other team defending deep which is something our side won't give to you

Plenty of players achieved nothing in CL....he proved himself at highest stage numerous times(both for Belgium and City and even Wolfsburg where he won them their first Cup in history of the club), this isnt a case like Ibra where he was a top dog in shit competitions through his career while playing for the best team of the competition

KdB is more then a playmaker and thats why i love/rate him so much, he is pretty much a b2b player with GOAT level delivery. Selfless both on and of the ball, i have zero doubts this midfield would work like a charm. If that wasnt the case i wouldnt drop my favorite player and the best midfielder we have on the bench.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

For a 5 man defense with Voronin no less in front of them, it doesn't need too many team players in attack. Lets not forget Muller himself was already hard working. Its a counter attacking setup where you'd want to by incisive when the chances come your way and its hard to top Muller and Romario. If everyone is working hard, you don't have men up front waiting for this quick counters.

As I said, I think your personal decision is fine, but I wouldn't have done that. (I will end this here I guess as it has no bearing on the game and is just side stepping a good debate between managers)

i dont like them offensive wise either it not just the defensive capabiulities of Seeler that won the duel for him + you can never have to many grafters in the team, the more the merrier!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The difference is Puskas/Figo are more viable options to exert control in midfield and not just press. It's getting the ball back, then moving it around and keeping it afterwards. Not only sprints and chasing people around.

We were talking specifically about defensive qualities and pressing so thats why i focused on that, if you want to talk about on the ball stuff we can focus on that as well. In a team where everyone is more then good enough on the ball with most more then pleased to share it, its going to be a lovely debate for us.

In CL KdB hasn't really proven his worth so far. No doubt he's not one season wonder, but him David Silva, Yaya Toure, Fabregas, etc - it's really a tossup for me who you would rate more and is down to personal choice in terms of ability, achievement and consistency.

In terms of draft - I'd consider both - peak and consistency because it gives a fair representation of their ability across multiple seasons. For example at his absolute pump Mbappe should be regularly picked in current drafts ahead some popular RW/LW options, but it's not the case and rightfully so IMO.

I'll be off for a while if @Pat_Mustard has the time to continue and will be back later... Good luck to both

CL isnt the only competition and he joined the City side that struggled in the competition before him as well. He proved himself at the best/toughest(ok you can argue for Primera but the difference is marginal this days which ever way you lean for so id use the same argument for both) league and with his national team where he lead midfield ran by Fellaini and strikerforce by fecking Lukaku to a World Cup Bronze, providing a great performance in the third match playoff IIRC.
Good debate so far, good luck to you guys as well.

 

[Synco]

The difference is Puskas/Figo are more viable options to exert control in midfield and not just press. It's getting the ball back, then moving it around and keeping it afterwards. Not only sprints and chasing people around.

Hm, I'd say if you win the ball, you don't want control, but a rapid counterattack. I don't think anything can be said against Seeler/Müller as lethal transition players. (Seeler more in a playmaking forward way, Müller mostly - but not exclusively - in his famous touch & go way.)

For a 5 man defense with Voronin no less in front of them, it doesn't need too many team players in attack. Lets not forget Muller himself was already hard working. Its a counter attacking setup where you'd want to by incisive when the chances come your way and its hard to top Muller and Romario. If everyone is working hard, you don't have men up front waiting for this quick counters.

Seeler was a great counter player - fast sprinter, could play deep, wide & up front. Good at carrying the ball past defenders, passing, crossing, and finishing in multiple ways.

For me, the most complementary attacking setup is Seeler + one of Müller/Romario. So Seeler + Müller, all things considered.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Seeler was a great counter player - fast sprinter, could play deep, wide & up front. Good at carrying the ball past defenders, passing, crossing, and finishing in multiple ways.

I'd rather have a Goat scorer with Zidane, De Bruyne, Voronin and Passarella already behind me. I don't count Seeler as a goat obviously.

For me, the most complementary attacking setup is Seeler + one of Müller/Romario. So Seeler + Müller, all things considered.

That makes it sound like Muller/Romario is not complimentary which I don't agree with.

Anyways let's take it to the general discussion thread as it doesn't have any bearing on the game.

 

[Synco]

Anyways let's take it to the general discussion thread as it doesn't have any bearing on the game.

Alright, sure.

 

[harms]

For me, the most complementary attacking setup is Seeler + one of Müller/Romario. So Seeler + Müller, all things considered.

Agree. Even if we simply compare their mentalities — while both Romario and Müller were obviously quite good technically and made quite a lot of assists over the years, they always go on the pitch with one thought: to score a goal. Seeler, somehow, managed to score all his goals (what was it, something close to 600?) with a slightly different approach, and he was happy, especially for the national team, to play as a second fiddle and adjust to the striking partner. And I'm not only talking about 1970, when he was already past his best and Müller was at his prime. I mean, even in 1966 he had played a supporting role for Beckenbauer ( , 4 goals) and also for Haller (6 goals). It may sound a bit harsh, but Haller was an average player if we're looking at him from an all-time perspective. Well, maybe not average, but he's definitely not an all-time great. Yet, Seeler thought that it was better for the team and played in a weird false-9/false-winger role from the right — and that pairing scored 10 goals between them.

A bit like Rooney said about himself in his recent column:

This might surprise you, but I’m not a natural goalscorer. I was never a Gary Lineker or a Ruud van Nistelrooy. I hold the goal records for Manchester United and England and I’m very proud about that – yet there have been better number nines than me

 

[harms]

As for Invi's team: bit defensively suspect but ok, concede a ton and score a ton...

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Decided to go against my initial instincts and go for Enigma/Pat here.

While the left flank obviously had a say, Charlton played a big role off the ball as well. Having 3 hard working midfielders along with Figo as well would go a long way in containing the Zidane-Voronin-De Bruyne midfield off the ball.

I wanted to call it a draw but then thought a final should have as many votes as possible, so there we go.

Great game.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Think Enigma will see a bit more ball/possession and that tilts this in his favour.

Edit: Just noticed his AM is @Pat_Mustard ??? That tilts this in Sjor's favour.

 

[Synco]

All in all, my vote goes to Invi/Sjor. Both teams have advantages in attack they can play out, and (as usual in alltime drafts) I expect both offenses to do damage.

I simply don't see Enigma/Pat's defensive setup being suited too well for the Seeler/Müller double whammy, while I think Invi/Sjor's back six can cope a bit better with what's coming at them. (Even though I agree their right defensive side will be under fire - but I also rate Ferrara more than most seem to do, especially in that position.)

 

[Šjor Bepo]

feck me when Ciro Ferrara is seen as a weak link.....
Funny how the game works, out of both flanks id say as a team they would defend better the right side. Guess individual quality will always be seen as everything.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Even though I agree their right defensive side will be under fire - but I also rate Ferrara more than most seem to do, especially in that position

I don't think he is less rated here. Even as a RCB, he gets his due credit almost always. I myself had a good outing with him at RCB in one draft (reached the final no less), so have experienced it personally as well as seen in other teams.

 

[Synco]

I don't think he is less rated here. Even as a RCB, he gets his due credit almost always. I myself had a good outing with him at RCB in one draft (reached the final no less), so have experienced it personally as well as seen in other teams.

All the better, then. He really deserves recognition as a top defender, imo.

 

[Physiocrat]

I can't call this. I'm going for a score draw

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I can't call this. I'm going for a score draw

Booooooo! We need voters, not draw callers!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Not sure what I am supposed to debate here, to be honest. We can't prove much or give a tangible and all-encompassing and conclusive account of his capabilities as a box-to-box midfielder vis-à-vis his capabilities as a disciplined defensive midfielder, as was pointed out before, and it will mostly just be our word vs. theirs — a compilation here or there doesn't provide a genuine reflection of that when hours of hours need to be methodically examined. In my opinion (which is probably not worth much obviously), Pirri peaked as a young box-to-box midfielder with a fair bit of freedom. Zoco was Madrid's central anchor...Pirri would go forward, easy peasy. And like of a lot of players of his ilk, Pirri started playing deeper when he started to lose peak athletic capabilities and became more experienced...good, but not at his previous best. Again, just our word vs. theirs — so I'll leave the whole argument at that (as well as the coincidental fact that both of Ballon D'Or Top 10 finishes were as a central midfielder as he peaked there). He's not comparable to the likes of Rijkaard or Desailly or Voronin or Varela as a defensive midfielder — and that type of player was needed to appropriately shield the defense vs. the collective brunt of Müller, Seeler, Zidane and De Bruyne. Additionally, he won't be a major factor in the air on set pieces vs. Müller, Passarella, Zidane, Seeler — off De Bruyne's deliveries to boot. Again, all of this is in my opinion — far from conclusive, and I'm not trying to shortchange Pirri...quite like him if you look at my ranking votes, just not in this role, an imperfect comparison but would say the same for the likes of Matthäus or Neeskens (who were also unfortunately used as defensive midfielders in past drafts).

Cc. @Pat_Mustard

I agree to a large extent of course, but beyond entertainment and general time-wasting that's the purpose of match threads imo. We have a really incomplete picture of whole swathes of draft regulars (most players in fact if we're honest), but in the match threads where we pick a side, research and debate at least some more details might get teased out and we get a slightly more complete understanding over time of a historically significant player.

On Pirri specifically, I agree that a single compilation is hardly the final word on him but it's a reasonable starting point for assessing his capabilities in a more defensive role, and for me he passed the eye test handsomely against strong opposition. In some ways whether he was better in a more advanced role is neither here nor there as in this company there'll always be great players in supporting roles (Seeler for example will presumably be in a supportive role to Muller). However, as regards Pirri playing deeper he still looked strong, quite fast with a great engine even in his 30s, and other factors rather than declining athleticism might factor into him moving deeper: 1) the importance of the libero role in that era and his fit for the role and 2) Real having Netzer and Breitner in their team as the latter was developing into a B2B great.

A few final points:

1) I'm not going to sell him as some aerial monster but he looked quite competent in that regard:

Scoring against Utd from 1:02:



and against Northern Ireland from 0:30



scoring 2 goals in 2 minutes against France, the first a cracking diving header and the second a rebound from his own header:



2) As regards the Ballon d'Or point, he did finish 11th much later in his career in 1975 (and received 4 votes that year as opposed to 3 votes in his top 10 years), and even received the odd vote as late as 1977, so I don't think that point is particularly instructive in terms of suggesting a diminished standing in the game as he moved deeper.

3) Comparing our use of Pirri to playing Neeskens as the deepest midfielder seems unfair. As far as I know Neeskens never spent any significant amount of time in that role whereas a large chunk of Pirri's career was spent in deeper positions, where he continued to win trophies, receive a level of Ballon d'Or recognition, and rack up some of his best goalscoring seasons. The Matthaus comparison is more explicable although I don't tend to agree with that either, as there was a clear before and after with Matthaus' role with him only moving back to libero after a debilitating, potentially career-ending injury when he was already in his 30s.

 

[antohan]

Oh damn. I really really wanted to vote for Spencer. He deserves the top billing and kudos to Enigma and Pat for sticking to such an underrated player. Their side leaves a fair bit left to the imagination though and how the units blend and work as such is not exactly crystal clear. They could hit it off... or maybe not.

At the other end, Sjor/Invictus have assembled a brilliant side. It's beautifully balanced and I can see every player in his element. The back 6 is the sort you would set out to draft but never get the full set. I don't usually fawn over Zidane too much but I can see him have a great game, while KDB suits the team and style as few others would (and we all know it, even if it is always more attractive to go for mythical names of the game). And then there is the front two... Mein Uwe <3

 

[antohan]

Can't believe I'm reading people would bench Uwe Seeler out of that side. Bloody hell. Fits like a glove and I wouldn't be surprised if he had a better game than Puskas. And no, I'm not underrating Puskas.

 

[Gio]

Pat and Enigma have lost some ground since the semis whereas Sjor and Invictus have withstood the hit more seamlessly. Beautiful set-up. Nice to see Pirri receive some overdue recognition. Can imagine Zidane having a great game.

 

[harms]

It feels wrong to vote against Pat & Enigma, they’ve built an amazing side, coherent, multifaceted and extremely talented. But I went with my heart that says that Müller and Seeler would decide the game here, if De Bruyne had them up front, he’d hit 40+ assists season after season.

By the way, I wanted to ask @antohan, is there any general agreement on who was that Peñarol’s side best player? I’d imagine that most people would go for Spencer, with usual goalscoring bias, but it’s one of the rare historically great sides where you don’t have a clear GOAT standout as its leader.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Good debate @Enigma_87 @Pat_Mustard , love the team and its nice to see Sir Bobby in the final! Gets underrated quite a bit....

 

[Himannv]

Mostly just got swayed by Muller + Seeler in the end. Nice pairing.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Congratulations on winning the Coronavirus Champions League, @Šjor Bepo @Invictus . I'd safely say Kevin De Bruyne just hit his career peak.

Tough luck @Enigma_87 @Pat_Mustard , some great teams built along the way and an especially excellent one in the final.

 

[Invictus]

Good game @Enigma_87 & @Pat_Mustard, brilliant XI even though you were heavily hit with restrictions — though that's to be expected because you both always field well-designed teams, irrespective of the format/pool. Also dug the largely mellow vibe in the thread, lovely-jubbly...

Cheers @GodShaveTheQueen for managing this draft — been running on fumes since the Quarter-final but a thoroughly enjoyable affair all in all...now I need a few months off to recharge. And thanks to the voters and commenters throughout the tourney, you the real MVP.

Mostly I'm just glad/relieved that @Šjor Bepo has popped his cherry — the geezer doesn't really care himself, but it always irked me as he has good ideas and firm convictions...and had come excruciatingly close in the past.

 

[Synco]

I found it nice that Pirri, Spencer & De Bruyne featured in fitting roles in this final. The material on Pirri & Spencer was really profound & interesting.

And I especially liked that Invi/Sjor made full use of Müller's allround game. Sometimes I saw him just getting stuck up top, which is a waste (and wouldn't even help his scoring, imo).

 

[Enigma_87]

Congratulations @Invictus @Šjor Bepo ! That 5 at the back was brilliant move in hindsight and I think won you the game.

Nice to see @Šjor Bepo winning his maiden one too

Enjoyed this one @GodShaveTheQueen thanks all!

 

[antohan]

I found it nice that Pirri, Spencer & De Bruyne featured in fitting roles in this final. The material on Pirri & Spencer was really profound & interesting.

And I especially liked that Invi/Sjor made full use of Müller's allround game. Sometimes I saw him just getting stuck up top, which is a waste (and wouldn't even help his scoring, imo).

Agree, you often see Muller up top and seemingly just there for his record, here it was nail on head starting with the partner but also the creative midfield and 5-at-the-back setup. No advanced #10 or wingers adding numbers and clogging it all up, just an appropriate (albeit superb) platform to let them do their business.

 

[Himannv]

I'm somewhat interested in what system really gets the best out of Muller. Is it paired with a striker like Seeler, or ahead of a player like Pele, or maybe up there on his own? I get that he can do all of this, but what's the perfect system for him really?

 

[Synco]

I'm somewhat interested in what system really gets the best out of Muller. Is it paired with a striker like Seeler, or ahead of a player like Pele, or maybe up there on his own? I get that he can do all of this, but what's the perfect system for him really?

I think formation is indeed flexible, it's more about stylistic elements that match his strengths. Ideal might be something like this:

• aggressive pressing
• direct transition style, no exceptional emphasis on possession
• quick short passing & positional interchange in the final third, no emphasis on long balls
• good wing support

bonus:
FW/AM/CM/libero advancing from deep into scoring positions while Müller drops & links up

He's also hugely valuable defending deep, but that requires a great collective counter setup, as Müller isn't ideal to chase through balls over longer distances like faster players.

Imo, his game had many elements of modern collectivist football that were partly underused in his time.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good debate @Enigma_87 @Pat_Mustard , love the team and its nice to see Sir Bobby in the final! Gets underrated quite a bit....

Good game @Enigma_87 & @Pat_Mustard, brilliant XI even though you were heavily hit with restrictions — though that's to be expected because you both always field well-designed teams, irrespective of the format/pool. Also dug the largely mellow vibe in the thread, lovely-jubbly...

Cheers @GodShaveTheQueen for managing this draft — been running on fumes since the Quarter-final but a thoroughly enjoyable affair all in all...now I need a few months off to recharge. And thanks to the voters and commenters throughout the tourney, you the real MVP.

Mostly I'm just glad/relieved that @Šjor Bepo has popped his cherry — the geezer doesn't really care himself, but it always irked me as he has good ideas and firm convictions...and had come excruciatingly close in the past.

Well played lads and congratulations! That was a great match thread - vigorously debated with some really interesting points but no bad temper or ill-feeling. Also, couldn't agree more that Sjor as Champions League winner is a victory for humanity .

I'd said in PM with Enigma that I had an inkling that Sjor wouldn't love a Dzajic/Matthews winger combo and would probably want KDB to start but I didn't see the 5-3-2 coming at all. Masterstroke that might have won you the match as your team looked different and fresher (with that wall of a defence looking especially good) whereas we undeniably took a hit with losing Pele and Best, much as I liked this team and Spencer in a starring role in particular.

 

[antohan]

By the way, I wanted to ask @antohan, is there any general agreement on who was that Peñarol’s side best player? I’d imagine that most people would go for Spencer, with usual goalscoring bias, but it’s one of the rare historically great sides where you don’t have a clear GOAT standout as its leader.

Not really, only general agremeent is that was Peñarol and Uruguay's most competitive club side.

There's the Spencer-Joya duo, not just a great partnership but also imported from Ecuador and Peru in what was by all means a Galáctico policy mirroring Real's with Puskas, Di Stefano, Kopa, Santamaría... Don't forget there was also Lescano from Paraguay and Elías Figueroa from Chile.

Figueroa himself always said he learned the art of defending and leading at Peñarol, from none other than Tito Goncalves. The "Captain of Captains" as he was referred to, seeing as over a half-dozen previous/concurrent/future Uruguay and foreign NT captains played under his leadership. Roberto Matosas to this day is held in high regard at River Plate as everything a captain should be... yet never got even close to challenging Tito for club or country.

But going back to Spencer and Joya, it says a tonne about them that they stand out as the poster boys of a decade in which Peñarol also featured the likes of Luis Cubilla, Pedro Rocha, Ermindo Onega and Pepe Sasía.

In their midst, the enormous experience, football brain and game management of Julio César Abbadie, the bridge between Peñarol's other great side of the late 40s with Varela, Schiaffino, Ghiggia and Miguez and this one.

And Ladislao Mazurkiewicz in nets, the goalkeeper Pelé credits as the best he ever faced and (remarkably, given THAT save from Gordon Banks) the one to have produced the most inexplicable save to deny him.

Nah, the only agreement is that they were a phenomenal team, one that could go toe to toe with the very best of their time or any other time not just for the individual quality but their ability to dig deep and perform as a TEAM, come what may.

The only agreement on individual quality was Forlán's dad was their worst player, or at least the one regular that was clearly not World Class... and yet he is a São Paulo legend to this day. Go figure.

I'm somewhat interested in what system really gets the best out of Muller. Is it paired with a striker like Seeler, or ahead of a player like Pele, or maybe up there on his own? I get that he can do all of this, but what's the perfect system for him really?

I personally loved this setup because, beyond scoring goals, what Müller and Seeler can do superbly is link up and control space. When you have such a duo I'd much rather everyone backed the feck off and fully exploited that instead of adding bodies in the final third.

So I prefer no classic #10 but deeper creative midfielders ala Netzer and no out and out wingers (let alone modern ones cutting in), but superb attacking fullbacks that can cross and link with them if they peel wide. Both Zidane and de Bruyne are also extremely comfortable in wide areas.

You want more directness, more movement, a less predictable remit of what or who the rival defence will have to deal with. Then just give them two the total freedom to torture and expose the poor bastards time and again.

 

[Jim Beam]

Quite appropriate that bepo got Zidane over the line. The class, forget the class, his movement and passing. This tournament was just something else, often seen as just a number 10 who loved to drift and could be contained. Lovely stuff, awful quality, but well worth a watch. One of the best modern big tournaments from a star player.

He blocks France, Juve, Real and Cannes mind you.

 

[harms]

The game against Portugal was probably his best ever performance — and that's saying something!

 

[Jim Beam]

The game against Portugal was probably his best ever performance — and that's saying something!

El mejor jugador de fútbol!!