Cold War against China?

hmchan said:
First independent report into Xinjiang genocide allegations claims evidence of Beijing's 'intent to destroy' Uyghur people
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/09/asia/china-uyghurs-xinjiang-genocide-report-intl-hnk/index.html
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This is brutal stuff. Granted, it's an establishment American think tank report, but if only half of it is true, it's still shocking. Forced sterilization is an abominable crime.

But the West will do nothing. Cheap phones and car sales trump human rights.
 
RoyH1 said:
This is brutal stuff. Granted, it's an establishment American think tank report, but if only half of it is true, it's still shocking. Forced sterilization is an abominable crime.

But the West will do nothing. Cheap phones and car sales trump human rights.
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I think the West's ability to control what happens in other countries is somewhat overestimated. The west hasn't even been able to force meaningfull change in North Korea. The west's capacity to do so with China is much much smaller. And on the other hand you will have a few posters here and there on this forum, who think that the west shouln't speak out on it at all. There are quite a few of those in real life as well.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
I find it fascinating just to ponder all the things that China are doing in secret. For such a big country they really are good at hiding all of their affairs. You always hear about the crazy scientific experiments that go on over there. Is there even anything to all that?
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If I'm correct Deng Xiaoping even had a quote about keeping a low-profile. Having control over the media probably helps a lot in keeping things secret.

That being said, I'm confident the Americans are doing lots of things in secret as well. God knows what kind of weapons the US military is working on with its massive budget.
 
VorZakone said:
If I'm correct Deng Xiaoping even had a quote about keeping a low-profile. Having control over the media probably helps a lot in keeping things secret.

That being said, I'm confident the Americans are doing lots of things in secret as well. God knows what kind of weapons the US military is working on with its massive budget.
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Or guantanamo and other ghost prisons around the world
 
VorZakone said:
If I'm correct Deng Xiaoping even had a quote about keeping a low-profile. Having control over the media probably helps a lot in keeping things secret.

That being said, I'm confident the Americans are doing lots of things in secret as well. God knows what kind of weapons the US military is working on with its massive budget.
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True. Atomic bombs were dropped 75 years ago and people now still talk about nukes. I'm pretty convinced they have developed more advanced and destructive weapons since then.
 
hmchan said:
True. Atomic bombs were dropped 75 years ago and people now still talk about nukes. I'm pretty convinced they have developed more advanced and destructive weapons since then.
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They actually stopped refining their nuc tech when the ussr broke up. It was already unnecessary good before that. Both in actual physics packages which were made dial-a-yield via boosting, and delivery systems such as the trident slbm , the ultimate wunderwaffe.
 
VorZakone said:
Anyone else feels like the US-China rivalry has heated up in the last couple of years?

Dangerous signs. Hopefully it doesn't result in proxy military conflicts. The Chinese might be itching to test their combat readiness since they haven't fought a military conflict in decades.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2BA2U8?il=0&utm_source=reddit.com
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There's been a huge surge in anti-Chinese propaganda in the last year, mostly because it was in the interests of Trump and the alt right. Remember the organ-harvesting stuff? Complete bollocks pushed from fake "research" companies linked to those same circles.

Factors in play right now are that Governments of rich western countries completely and utterly fecked up the response to Covid, so they need someone to blame and take attention away. China also dealt with the virus better than anyone else and are enjoying the economic benefits, not fair right?

There are obviously large problems with the way the Chinese government does things, there always has been, there is nothing new here. I personally think we have bigger problems closer to home right now.
 
Simbo said:
There's been a huge surge in anti-Chinese propaganda in the last year, mostly because it was in the interests of Trump and the alt right. Remember the organ-harvesting stuff? Complete bollocks pushed from fake "research" companies linked to those same circles.

Factors in play right now are that Governments of rich western countries completely and utterly fecked up the response to Covid, so they need someone to blame and take attention away. China also dealt with the virus better than anyone else and are enjoying the economic benefits, not fair right?

There are obviously large problems with the way the Chinese government does things, there always has been, there is nothing new here. I personally think we have bigger problems closer to home right now.
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No it's not. What happening right now in Hong Kong and Xinjiang is definitely something new: the ridiculous National Security Law, the arrest of all pro-democratic councillors, the proposed change in electoral system etc. The abuse in freedom and human rights is unprecedented and I'm shocked that you haven't noticed.

Like I've said many times in the COVID thread, China is the major culprit for the pandemic and I can't believe some still think they deal with it better than others. They have plenty of opportunities to contain the virus at the early stage, instead they try to cover up and allow the spread to go on. Yes Western countries could have done better, but let's not forget the one who causes the damage always shoulders a larger responsibility than those who fail to limit the damage.
 
Yeah the anti chinese agenda predates Trump. US was happy as long as they could use China for cheap and expendable labor. Now they are afraid China will be their eastern mirror image. How the West view China has always been deeply rooted in racism.
 
hmchan said:
Definitely, but I don't think it would turn into a military conflict in the foreseeable future.
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I think the test here would be if China made a serious attempt to annex Taiwan.
 
Simbo said:
There's been a huge surge in anti-Chinese propaganda in the last year, mostly because it was in the interests of Trump and the alt right. Remember the organ-harvesting stuff? Complete bollocks pushed from fake "research" companies linked to those same circles.

Factors in play right now are that Governments of rich western countries completely and utterly fecked up the response to Covid, so they need someone to blame and take attention away. China also dealt with the virus better than anyone else and are enjoying the economic benefits, not fair right?

There are obviously large problems with the way the Chinese government does things, there always has been, there is nothing new here. I personally think we have bigger problems closer to home right now.
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Organ harvesting from who?
 
hmchan said:
Allegedly prisoners, mainly Falun Gong practitioners.
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It's not for me to say whether it's fake news or not. I have a as little faith in the words of the CCP as I do of the news networks of North Korea, so i'm not fairly convinced that it's all based on anti-chinese propaganda.
 
I found this video to be very interesting. Not sure how much of it was true but I guess it made sense.
An interesting point the guy made was that China is increasingly viewing environmental concerns as a growth strategy while the US perceives it as costly, and hurting the economy. In other words, the Chinese actually view it as a business opportunity for the long-term.
"The Chinese today see climate initiatives as a way to make money from it. They can develop new technologies, produce new equipment and sell it to yourself or others. In the US we see it as a cost burden, as inhibiting growth."
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hmchan said:
No it's not. What happening right now in Hong Kong and Xinjiang is definitely something new: the ridiculous National Security Law, the arrest of all pro-democratic councillors, the proposed change in electoral system etc. The abuse in freedom and human rights is unprecedented and I'm shocked that you haven't noticed.

Like I've said many times in the COVID thread, China is the major culprit for the pandemic and I can't believe some still think they deal with it better than others. They have plenty of opportunities to contain the virus at the early stage, instead they try to cover up and allow the spread to go on. Yes Western countries could have done better, but let's not forget the one who causes the damage always shoulders a larger responsibility than those who fail to limit the damage.
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Well said, Xi will push and push unless the western countries (mainly the US) push back.
 
VorZakone said:
But Reddit experts said an invasion would be immensely costly for China and Taiwan would defend very well.
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Well, fart.

Interesting passage about the slow degradation of the Taiwanese air assets by the increase of Chinese incursions into their airspace. That’s one way to advance one’s potential military goals on the cheap.
 
That being said, I don't really buy the US fearmongering here.

I think the Chinese are rational enough to know there'll be pushback from too many sides, like the US, South Korea and Japan. It'd also create huge international backlash.

I think China is definitely testing the waters but I'm not expecting an invasion within the next 10 years.
 
VorZakone said:
That being said, I don't really buy the US fearmongering here.

I think the Chinese are rational enough to know there'll be pushback from too many sides, like the US, South Korea and Japan. It'd also create huge international backlash.

I think China is definitely testing the waters but I'm not expecting an invasion within the next 10 years.
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What do you think about the predicted timelines, etc.? Does China have the military strength right now to be able to neutralize Taiwan that quickly to be able to fend off the US & the others?
 
calodo2003 said:
What do you think about the predicted timelines, etc.? Does China have the military strength right now to be able to neutralize Taiwan that quickly to be able to fend off the US & the others?
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In my opinion, no. Not by 2027.

For all their equipment, the Chinese haven't mastered the art of logistics yet like the US military. Logistics is a key part of any invasion and I think the Chinese will be first looking to strengthen their logistical capability. There's a saying in the military world: amateurs discuss strategy, experts discuss logistics.

Also, I'd say they'll want the Hong Kong and Uyghur situation to calm down a bit before giving the international community even more reasons for isolating China and sanctioning them.

That's just my amateur opinion here by the way. But based on all I know, I just can't see China taking so much risk in invading Taiwan. Not within the next decade.
 
VorZakone said:
In my opinion, no. Not by 2027.

For all their equipment, the Chinese haven't mastered the art of logistics yet like the US military. Logistics is a key part of any invasion and I think the Chinese will be first looking to strengthen their logistical capability. There's a saying in the military world: amateurs discuss strategy, experts discuss logistics.

Also, I'd say they'll want the Hong Kong and Uyghur situation to calm down a bit before giving the international community even more reasons for isolating China and sanctioning them.

That's just my amateur opinion here by the way. But based on all I know, I just can't see China taking so much risk in invading Taiwan. Not within the next decade.
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The HK / Uyghur point is probably spot on. It certainly would help the prospect of an invasion for the invading country to have as little international furor already directed their way.

I agree about the logistics point as well. It’s the far less glamorous practicality, but with even broader ramifications than strategies.
 
I don't think there will be others tbh. Japan have a purely defensive force and neither they nor SK would risk war over Taiwan anyway.

I feel very sorry for Taiwan tbh. Got a few friends from Taiwan, they're lovely and culturally very Chinese. They just don't want to be ruled by the CCP.

I'm not sure I can see a situation in the long term though where it isn't assimilated into the country, in one way or another.

I think if they'd left HK relatively alone, they'd have had more chance of convincing Taiwan of a possible one country, two systems approach there.
 
africanspur said:
I don't think there will be others tbh. Japan have a purely defensive force and neither they nor SK would risk war over Taiwan anyway.

I feel very sorry for Taiwan tbh. Got a few friends from Taiwan, they're lovely and culturally very Chinese. They just don't want to be ruled by the CCP.

I'm not sure I can see a situation in the long term though where it isn't assimilated into the country, in one way or another.

I think if they'd left HK relatively alone, they'd have had more chance of convincing Taiwan of a possible one country, two systems approach there.
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Damn, I can't find the source, but I remember reading a couple of days ago that the Chinese threat has been worrying Japan and the US, to the extent that the legislation surrounding the defence force may get changed.

To allow Japan to increase its offensive capability.
 
VorZakone said:
Damn, I can't find the source, but I remember reading a couple of days ago that the Chinese threat has been worrying Japan and the US, to the extent that the legislation surrounding the defence force may get changed.

To allow Japan to increase its offensive capability.
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They've been talking about it for a while and it may happen for sure but even if they do, I can't see Japan getting involved in an actual war with China over Taiwan.
 
africanspur said:
I don't think there will be others tbh. Japan have a purely defensive force and neither they nor SK would risk war over Taiwan anyway.

I feel very sorry for Taiwan tbh. Got a few friends from Taiwan, they're lovely and culturally very Chinese. They just don't want to be ruled by the CCP.

I'm not sure I can see a situation in the long term though where it isn't assimilated into the country, in one way or another.

I think if they'd left HK relatively alone, they'd have had more chance of convincing Taiwan of a possible one country, two systems approach there.
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I don't think so. Japan rely very heavily on the shipping lane to their south and if China annexed Taiwan, the CCP will basically be in charge of that shipping lane, which is something Japan cannot live with.

Personally I think Japan will certainly get involved should China invade Taiwan.
VorZakone said:
Damn, I can't find the source, but I remember reading a couple of days ago that the Chinese threat has been worrying Japan and the US, to the extent that the legislation surrounding the defence force may get changed.

To allow Japan to increase its offensive capability.
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Japan are one step away from having aircraft carriers and if they wanted, probably months away from having ICBMs and nukes.
africanspur said:
They've been talking about it for a while and it may happen for sure but even if they do, I can't see Japan getting involved in an actual war with China over Taiwan.
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I can't see Japan not getting involved, after invading Taiwan, Okinawa will probably be next on Xi's list. Japan will want to leverage their tie with the US as soon as possible with the US still having the upper hand.
 
Cal? said:
Japan are one step away from having aircraft carriers and if they wanted, probably months away from having ICBMs and nukes.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you actually serious here? This reads like 15 year old after watching the Sum of all fears or any other Tom Clancy movie.
 
I wonder how many countries or athletes will boycot the 2022 Winter Olympics next year. Could bring even more international attention to the Uyghur situation.
 
The Firestarter said:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you actually serious here? This reads like 15 year old after watching the Sum of all fears or any other Tom Clancy movie.
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ICBM
https://asiatimes.com/2018/01/can-japans-epsilon-rocket-used-icbm/

Japan has one of the most advanced space programs, using solid-fuel rocket, it can be turned into a nuclear delivery vehicle with relative ease.
"All they have to do is take the satellites off the front end and add the warheads.”

Nukes
https://interactive.pri.org/2019/03/japan-nuclear/index.html

Steve Fetter, a nuclear expert who served in Barack Obama’s White House for five years.

Given Japan’s “technological and scientific expertise,” he says, the government could probably build a bomb “within a matter of months.”

“Japan has 45,000 kilograms of plutonium, and it only takes 8 kilograms to build a nuclear weapon.”
 
China pushing their own English-language propaganda. This is getting funny actually, like a Seinfeld bizarro world.

 
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