Club Sale | It’s done!

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If the Glazer’s did decide to stay. Can you imagine the fan backlash…… it would be huge, bigger than anything we’ve seen to date.

To stay they would need significant investment from a source which would only be investing for commercial reasons. Think about this who in their right mind would put circa £2bn in for a minority shareholding and essentially back the Glazers post not selling…..
 
Giggsyking said:
Absolutely not, I am not suggesting that. But you can not be serious by saying there is no racial abuses within our fanbase base on your personal experience as a non muslim.
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I am allowed to have an opinion based on my experiences and anyway, how is this related to the ownership debate?
 
Rightnr said:
I was thinking about this while cooking.

If Ratcliffe doesn't repay our current debt (and I'm not talking about new debt he's said he'll put on INEOS), it'll have to be refinanced at some point.

Now I am not familiar with our debt profile but suffice to say it's been financed in a period of time where we've had historically low interest rates and very cheap financing. For example, we took our latest tranche of £100m at the start of Corona which was just about the best timing. I'd assume it's in the 2% to 4%, giving us the 20m or so annual interest repayment.

Current rates in the US (which is the finance capital of the world and where we draw finance, hence why the debt has been going up in £ terms because it's denominated in USD) are just under 5% and projected to go to 6%. Now, this is the base rate and I'd assume we'd be paying close to 10% once our debt is due to be refinanced.

Of course, it won't happen all at once and we can be prepared to refinance less but if we assume 600m debt at 10%, that's a nice 60m we'd pay just in interest a year and any capital repayment on top of that. We're literally talking about debt as big as our revenue.

Our headroom is anywhere between 100 to 200m a year, so 50/60m would mean we'd be very much constrained. You might have noticed I haven't even mentioned stadium costs and transfers, so make up your mind where we'd be if we don't get the cash injection of about 2bn to clear the debt and start building the stadium.
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Which is why, for all the moral issues, the Qatar bid would be the best financially for the club. Leaving aside the lads playing football manager, debt is about to become very expensive.

Being debt free in a world where interest rates are not just high, but high and volatile, is a huge advantage. Rivals like Liverpool have debt for stadium expansions that is about to get more expensive. I'd be amazed if Spurs aren't a basket case within a few years with their debt.
 
Kaos said:
Translation - I'm a tight arse that's spunked the club's finances servicing the debt I inflicted upon it, so like feck we're building a new stadium.

Also this is concerning, why is he giving opinions if they're selling.....they ARE selling right?? :nervous:
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I would question whether they are committed to selling at this time. Judging by various public comments, its beginning to feel increasingly like they may consider staying on in some kind of restructured capacity.
 
Some kind of Elliot-Glazer axis would be the absolute worst. Doom the club for another decade.
 
Loon said:
It's almost as if he's reacting to the negative spin the two vocal bidders have put on his reign by spouting fan appeasing bullshit.
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And it isn't working
 
Blood Mage said:
I don't think there would be any hesitation from the Glazers about selling if Ten Hag wasn't doing so well. It's because he's exceeding expectations that the Glazers have suddenly got cold feet about selling IMO. Victims of our own success.
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What is the craic with these doomsday theories, either Hag is leaving when new owners come in m, or now the Glazers are not selling, because we are 3rd on the table what ever relevance that has to with the sorry state they be left themselves in regarding infrastructure and funding the club going forward, which is why they are selling.

League cup win ain't going to change their mind, nor is the extra 50mil from champs league
 
SirtheIcarium said:
Which is why, for all the moral issues, the Qatar bid would be the best financially for the club. Leaving aside the lads playing football manager, debt is about to become very expensive.

Being debt free in a world where interest rates are not just high, but high and volatile, is a huge advantage. Rivals like Liverpool have debt for stadium expansions that is about to get more expensive. I'd be amazed if Spurs aren't a basket case within a few years with their debt.
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Literally. You could even say it's key to surviving.

There are so many people that are clueless about the current economic and financial environment and a few of them are on here crowing about Ratcliffe without any idea how difficult his project would be with this expensive debt burden. This despite the talk of rising rates in the news.

But this is not that surprising when you have a generation that's grown up with rates being at 0% and huge asset bubbles and the one before them having grown up in an adult world where this was the case (i.e. post 2008).

It's just frustrating trying to argue about reality with people who go Jim this and Jim that, as if he's some kind of Manchester Santa.
 
I find it hard to believe that the glazers are actually considering staying. You don't sign a group to facilitate a sale and start a bidding process just to end up saying no thanks, knowing fully well that the backlash would be unprecedented. Imagine not only them staying, but with additional debt too. I know they are shameless but they aren't stupid.
 
Running up the share prices and then sell out 20-30% of the B shares at 27usd instead of 15usd, good business for the Glazers and bad news for us fans!
 
Rightnr said:
Literally. You could even say it's key to surviving.

There are so many people that are clueless about the current economic and financial environment and a few of them are on here crowing about Ratcliffe without any idea how difficult his project would be with this expensive debt burden. This despite the talk of rising rates in the news.

But this is not that surprising when you have a generation that's grown up with rates being at 0% and huge asset bubbles and the one before them having grown up in an adult world where this was the case (i.e. post 2008).

It's just frustrating trying to argue about reality with people who go Jim this and Jim that, as if he's some kind of Manchester Santa.
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Idealism blinds you. Or for some kills them. They will be ok if United gets relegated even.
 
Someone said:
I find it hard to believe that the glazers are actually considering staying. You don't sign a group to facilitate a sale and start a bidding process just to end up saying no thanks, knowing fully well that the backlash would be unprecedented. Imagine not only them staying, but with additional debt too. I know they are shameless but they aren't stupid.
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You're right to find it hard to believe. It looks like a blatant posturing to me. They wouldn't have the money to make the repayments and just take a look at what happened with Eliot's funding of the Milan takeover. They don't mess about. It'd be a massive risk for the Glazers to go down that route.
 
Someone said:
I find it hard to believe that the glazers are actually considering staying. You don't sign a group to facilitate a sale and start a bidding process just to end up saying no thanks, knowing fully well that the backlash would be unprecedented. Imagine not only them staying, but with additional debt too. I know they are shameless but they aren't stupid.
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(a) they don't give a feck about what the fans think (b) they've said multiple times that a full sale isn't the only option.

Anders Agnalt said:
Running up the share prices and then sell out 20-30% of the B shares at 27usd instead of 15usd, good business for the Glazers and bad news for us fans!
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AFAIK none of the glazer kids own B shares, so this shouldn't be a thing.
 
Was beginning to fear the worst about this when that American hedge fund Elliot was mentioned a few days ago. This will be absolutely gut wrenching if these Yankee leeches decided to stay.
 
Someone said:
I find it hard to believe that the glazers are actually considering staying. You don't sign a group to facilitate a sale and start a bidding process just to end up saying no thanks, knowing fully well that the backlash would be unprecedented. Imagine not only them staying, but with additional debt too. I know they are shameless but they aren't stupid.
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Doubt they will be staying. They know full well the extent of the further investment needed - and they can’t afford it
 
Anders Agnalt said:
Running up the share prices and then sell out 20-30% of the B shares at 27usd instead of 15usd, good business for the Glazers and bad news for us fans!
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They would be charged with market manipulation if this is what they were doing, fortunately.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
They would be charged with market manipulation if this is what they were doing, fortunately.
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I doubt it, they've always said that they were exploring 'strategic alternatives', whether that be a full sale or minority investment. They've never hidden that, it's just fans have chosen only to believe the full sale part because they find the alternative to not bear thinking about.
 
I would think that Elliott hedge fund investment with Glazers still involved in some way is more likely than Ratcliffe, who I think just hasn’t got the funds required ultimately. But I still think Qatar is the likeliest to prevail.
 
The noises at this stage of the process were never going to be any different. They’ll sell if they get what they want. The whole thing would be too Machiavellian, even for a guy with the ponytail of a lifelong sex criminal.
 
Brophs said:
The noises at this stage of the process were never going to be any different. They’ll sell if they get what they want. The whole thing would be too Machiavellian, even for a guy with the ponytail of a lifelong sex criminal.
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:lol:
 
Brophs said:
The noises at this stage of the process were never going to be any different. They’ll sell if they get what they want. The whole thing would be too Machiavellian, even for a guy with the ponytail of a lifelong sex criminal.
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I don’t know why you’re bringing @Pexbo into the discussion.
 
HarryP said:
I doubt it, they've always said that they were exploring 'strategic alternatives', whether that be a full sale or minority investment. They've never hidden that, it's just fans have chosen only to believe the full sale part because they find the alternative to not bear thinking about.
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Yeah. Not just the fans, the market too. The current share value assumes (or is at least heavily betting on) a 100% sale.
From the Glazers pov (especially for the non-active four), this process will go some way to providing a value for their controlling shares. There was no market for B shares, and converting B to A (and selling them as one did) is significantly discounting their true value.
 
BuzzKillington said:
It seems every other club has managed to do it so I don’t see why not. Does it come with some financial pain and will it impact upon our transfer spending capability in the future? Yes.

Probably involves us selling naming rights for the stadium though, like everybody else seems to have done.

With the glazers it’s still doable, but the current debt will make the pain worse.
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thebelfastboy said:
Depends on how you look at it. We've got reliable cashflow and in theory we could still borrow to fund stadium upgrades whilst investing in the team. It's likely that it would be on unfavourable borrowing terms given the current climate. So it could still be done but would likely result in a tightening of the transfer budget.

I've always been surprised that the Glazers never tapped into the stadium naming rights. Maybe not in a full blown way that Arsenal have done, but something where Old Trafford was prefixed with a sponsorship would bring in substantial money
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SirtheIcarium said:
It's not just about United affording it. At the moment, interest rates are volatile, so any large scale lending is risky. In my job, we are being told that investors are becoming more risk averse. Ironically, an investment firm I'm tied to was linked a few months ago to a possible United bid. (Nothing came of it).

Taking a large scale, long term loan now would not be advised by any business. I don't like the Qatar bid, but from a purely financial perspective, it guarantees the clubs future in a way Ineos cannot. I note Ineos are not removing the current debt, just taking any new borrowing through Ineos rather than the club. But the current debt is about to become a lot more expensive as well. This is why I think the Glazers are choosing now to leave. The world since 2008 has been built on really low interest rates on loans, but the next 10 years are going to be different.
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owlo said:
We would be screwed wrt the new financial sustainability regulations from UEFA.
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clarkydaz said:
id say theyve mismanaged us into the ground

The CEO said in the pub next season will be a struggle financially
that was before we vastly overpaid on players in the summer, and brought in Casemiro out of thin air
We are now taking players on loan
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Loon said:
The fact the Glazers are exploring outside investment would indicate it has become unmanageable.
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Rightnr said:
I was thinking about this while cooking.

If Ratcliffe doesn't repay our current debt (and I'm not talking about new debt he's said he'll put on INEOS), it'll have to be refinanced at some point.

Now I am not familiar with our debt profile but suffice to say it's been financed in a period of time where we've had historically low interest rates and very cheap financing. For example, we took our latest tranche of £100m at the start of Corona which was just about the best timing. I'd assume it's in the 2% to 4%, giving us the 20m or so annual interest repayment.

Current rates in the US (which is the finance capital of the world and where we draw finance, hence why the debt has been going up in £ terms because it's denominated in USD) are just under 5% and projected to go to 6%. Now, this is the base rate and I'd assume we'd be paying close to 10% once our debt is due to be refinanced.

Of course, it won't happen all at once and we can be prepared to refinance less but if we assume 600m debt at 10%, that's a nice 60m we'd pay just in interest a year and any capital repayment on top of that. We're literally talking about debt as big as our revenue.

Our headroom is anywhere between 100 to 200m a year, so 50/60m would mean we'd be very much constrained. You might have noticed I haven't even mentioned stadium costs and transfers, so make up your mind where we'd be if we don't get the cash injection of about 2bn to clear the debt and start building the stadium.
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How fecking awesome of all you sane and knowledgeable posters! Thanks!


Plant0x84 said:
Hello mate, how’s it going?! :D:wenger:
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Sane Plant! I said sane! :p
 
Teja said:
(a) they don't give a feck about what the fans think (b) they've said multiple times that a full sale isn't the only option.



AFAIK none of the glazer kids own B shares, so this shouldn't be a thing.
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The Glazers shares are primarily B shares i believe with each B share being worth 10 votes per share and the A shares which are traded on the stock exchange being worth one vote per share.
Woodward apparently has one B share worth 1.5m
 
Plant0x84 said:
Listened to a sport finance expert lawyer on BBC R5L tonight, and he suggested the normal process now would be a 2-month period where those who have made a bid get access to all our financial data after signing NDAs and conduct due diligence to compile a more serious offer based on the value they place on the club. He suggested this would be inline with a sale at the end of the current season.
Id say anybody claiming this is a done deal is bluffing/bullshitting.
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That is the next step, but I think reports have suggested Raine are hoping to complete the next phase within 4-5 weeks, though, so that by mid/late March, we're down to just a few preferred bidders and the final phase can begin. That would mean a final deal agreed (whether minority stake or full buyout) at some point in April (and in any event, before the end of the season on 28 May).

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to think this is done (or even close to done) - if it were, the club would be obligated (under NYSE reporting and disclosure rules) to announce it publicly.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Listened to a sport finance expert lawyer on BBC R5L tonight, and he suggested the normal process now would be a 2-month period where those who have made a bid get access to all our financial data after signing NDAs and conduct due diligence to compile a more serious offer based on the value they place on the club. He suggested this would be inline with a sale at the end of the current season.
Id say anybody claiming this is a done deal is bluffing/bullshitting.
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If this is the state of play then all these bidders will stick with their bids, especially if the club is actually only worth 3.5bn. If they are offering £4.5, £5bn then already they are paying over the odds.

Trouble is, Glazers want 6bn :nervous:
 
LordSpud said:
If this is the state of play then all these bidders will stick with their bids, especially if the club is actually only worth 3.5bn. If they are offering £4.5, £5bn then already they are paying over the odds.

Trouble is, Glazers want 6bn :nervous:
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They won't get it. The value is already inflated due to the impending sale and they've just added 2bn on to that. It's nonsense.
 
Telsim said:
Yep. Starting to seem less and less like they are selling. Oh well, I just can't be arsed to give a shit anymore. Just say it's off and be done with it.
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I think the green light being given to raise season ticket prices after a decade is a pretty clear sign that they are off. They've been held for a long time to placate season ticket holders. People will be pretty pissed off if they now stick around and start squeezing the fans for more.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
I would think that Elliott hedge fund investment with Glazers still involved in some way is more likely than Ratcliffe, who I think just hasn’t got the funds required ultimately. But I still think Qatar is the likeliest to prevail.
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There were rumours that they’d already sorted a deal with a US based group. Glazers have always maintained that staying is an option and reckon their preference is investment.

Raine group criticising the ‘returning to former glories’ comment and hiring a director of football operations, setting season ticket pricing - along with the leak about joel glazer wanting Utd to remain at old Trafford due to heritage is all very very worrying.
 
HarryP said:
I doubt it, they've always said that they were exploring 'strategic alternatives', whether that be a full sale or minority investment. They've never hidden that, it's just fans have chosen only to believe the full sale part because they find the alternative to not bear thinking about.
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The market thought it was up for full sale too though. There's been extensive briefing going on and they have bids in for a total sale. If they were to turn around and use this purely to sell shares and keep their majority position then they'd leave themselves open to a lawsuit quite easily.

Having said that, the Glazers are idiots so it's quite possible that this was their primary strategy.
 
We as supporters, match going fans and the MUST need to continue to be vocal in that we want the club to be debt free and ran efficiently with modern day training facilities and have a stadium that delivers a match going experience that is befitting of a club of our stature.

We have had to put up with mediocrity for so long. It is time for this club to start competing with the elite.

First and foremost the Glazers must leave on no uncertain terms and then we start to turn attentions to should own the club and what is required to run Manchester United in a proper manner.

Now is the time to deliver our message that we have had enough!
 
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