That's Brighton's model, it's not and hopefully never will be United's model because if it does it means we're owned by a different version of the Glazers
Club Sale | It’s done!
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Lets take Brighton as an example shall we. We should look to Brighton for inspiration, how many trophies have they won? I suggest you are happy for us to sign players at 18/19 years to sell?
Secondly, it shows lack of understanding when you post like this. Although Brighton have done well with recruitment, you are only looking at the players that work, thinking it is this 100% brilliant transfers.
In the season they bought Bissouma and Macallister, do you know the players that they bought and not come off?
Jahanbakhsh, Bernado, Montoya, Andone, Buttton, Percy Tau, Dan Burn were also bought that window along with about 4/5 £3m signings.
in 19/20 they bough Webster, Maupay, Trossard, Clarke, Lamptey, of which they have only really made profit on Trossard if that.
Then you look at 20/21 where they signed Caceido, Karbownik, Moder, Zeqiri, Hecke.
21/22 they signed Mwepu, Cucurella, Kozlowski, Sima, Undav, Scherpen, Mitoma.
22/23 they signed Gilmour, Enciso, Estupinan, Adingra, Buonanotte, Ayari.
As you can see its not perfect like what people make it out to be.
So you are willing to take risks on 6/7 transfers hoping 1/2 come off? Is that really what we want at United?
@romufc
no....what i meant wasn't necessarily bringing in 17yr olds but more so the recruiting department and finding/bringing in these guys like an Enzo or Caicedo....identifying young talent on a more global scale without having to really pay over the odds for them. our young guys come thru the academy, who do a brilliant job, but it just seems like our sr level recruiting isn't at the same level.
no....what i meant wasn't necessarily bringing in 17yr olds but more so the recruiting department and finding/bringing in these guys like an Enzo or Caicedo....identifying young talent on a more global scale without having to really pay over the odds for them. our young guys come thru the academy, who do a brilliant job, but it just seems like our sr level recruiting isn't at the same level.
I get that, go find the next Enzo / Caceido. What we need to realise is for every 1 Caceido they signed 6 others who didn't work out, no one really talks about that because 1 is a succes.
That is the reason why Brighton are not winning things. If United went with 1/6 transfers to be successful, we wont win anything. Also the reason we haven't won anything, our transfers have been rubbish.
However' we have also done that, we signed Mejbri, Alvaro Fernandez, Diallo, Pellestri, Garnacho.
Its alot harder for a club like United to do it because when we are interested the fee very quickly jumps by £20m, then there is pressure of a player coming in and pressure to perform.
Look at Caceido, he didn't play, he went on loan and now he is rated where he is. Can we afford to give them time? Look how quickly we had written Pellestri and Diallo of.
fair point....we don't have the same time to allow guys to develop as youngsters or pressure to perform where Brighton for example have little expectations to win trophies yearly
yep, we are a bit too quick to write players off whereas at smaller clubs they taking a risk, they make mistakes but they are not under the same scrutiny.
Also, these fees being mentioned is crazy for 1 season of form. I remember players like Tielemans were rated at 50m not long ago, look at the fall of.
It is a different pressure when you have to come be the starter at United and have to perform .
First post of February.
Hopefully the month we get some significant progress and learn of concrete bids for the club
Hopefully the month we get some significant progress and learn of concrete bids for the club
I'm hoping, nay praying, that we have just witnessed the last Deadline Day of the Glazer era. I have everything crossed that we get a new owner soon!
Chelsea spend c£600m in 6 months, Leicester’s owners clear c£200m club debt personally.
Just feck off already. Do one. Go. I don’t even mind if Simon fecking Cowell buys us and we have televised half time karaoke competitions. Leave.
Just feck off already. Do one. Go. I don’t even mind if Simon fecking Cowell buys us and we have televised half time karaoke competitions. Leave.
Really good post!
Another thing people never take in to account when they cite Brighton or Brentford as examples is that the expectations of these clubs are completely different. United should be challengeing for leagues and Champions leagues so can't afford to take risks on players from the Ecuador league etc.
I remember Van Gaal saying something similar about Dele Alli and why they didn't sign him from MK Dons, this was back when United desperately needed a creative midfielder and Dele Alli was looking potentially world class and a bargain.
Van Gaal said they'd looked at him but couldn't risk offering him the same game time, whereas Spurs could offer that as it wasn't so much of a risk for them as they weren't fighting for anything and just floating around mid table. Probably happens a lot
Not very often, but the odd gamble would be alright. That striker we signed from Chivas Guadalajara was okay. Caicedo looks to be another player of that ilk, who would have made an impact, so it's a pity the trigger wasn't pulled there when we were considering him. You can't get them all though.
Of course we can afford to give a cheap signing time. That’s the entire point in that there wouldn’t be nearly as much pressure to perform as we bought them for 10m or under and can bed them in to see what they are made of. Even if they failed, it’s low risk and you move them on. Everyone acts like these cheap signings are high risk and you used Pellistri and Amad as examples, but we could probably sell both for more than we bought them for today and that’s without any sort of significant playing time in our own XI
Its because most of these people look at things with 0 context. I mean if you singed 10 players, you better hope 1 of them is a star.
Like you said, there are completely different pressures for both teams. Yes, if as a fan you are happy and content with United finishing top 4 and not challenging for titles, CL or anything, just happy to finish 30 points of the title every year, then I can see why you'd want to sign players.
But guess what, if you do that, the players wont stay at the club because they would want to leave.
Take Caceido for example, he has had 26 PL games and he wants to leave already.
I am sorry, I have higher standards, I rather spend the 50/60m and get a player I know is good than taking loads of risks.
On your first point, that's completely incorrect. I give you Jude for example, we could not guarantee first team minutes because we wanted to do your plan, bed him in, see what they are made of, but Dortmund were giving him, guaranteed minutes. Most footballers improve with minutes, playing week in week out. Diallo had to go on loan twice, Pellestri and his agent are already pushing for a move because of game time. So would you say Diallo and Pellestri have failed?
Secondly, if the team is doing well, means the players playing are performing well, which means less chance for these players to play. Look at Pellestri as an example, can't even get a start in 2 years in even a FA cup game against Reading.
Now the difference is, you are assuming we can sell them on for more without any proof whereas, Brighton turned down a 65m offer, Jude is attracting 100m offers.
The issue with that is, players like Enzo, Caicedo may not have had the same opportunities off the bat compared to going Benfica or Brighton. Fair to say our recruitment department has took an utter shoeing over recent years and rightly so. That said it's still a relatively new department, team that is being dragged out of the dark ages with proper data analytics and sports science. Some of these changes will only come to fruition in the next few windows. The early indications from the press are the recruitment team are bringing in players to fit the team needs and managers profile. They have worked diligently and pragmatically and it has been refreshing to see how they have operated. Credit where credit is due.
i think the gaffer now though has really changed a lot of things b/c he's a live and breath football guy....i don't honestly think that was or is the case with Moyes, Jose or Louis b/c of their age and who they are.
We started to see a bit of it with Ole and Ralf in terms of culture change with recruitment but clearly there is a change in philosophy with Erik plus the departure of that cnut Woodward.
Hopefully the new ownership, who ever that might be, allows this plan to continue and they don't rip up shop to bring in their own people that could fuk things up
We started to see a bit of it with Ole and Ralf in terms of culture change with recruitment but clearly there is a change in philosophy with Erik plus the departure of that cnut Woodward.
Hopefully the new ownership, who ever that might be, allows this plan to continue and they don't rip up shop to bring in their own people that could fuk things up
Love that showI read this an opinion a lot, but it’s not a model the bigger clubs can copy 1:1.
Playing for United/City/Liverpool is completely different to a Brighton/Southampton.
The idea you could sign some unknown for a few million and play him in front of 70 thousand every week and expect them to perform under that pressure is unrealistic.
The reason they develops and become better players is the environment/pressure at Brighton are almost nonexistent.
it's not about signing them and shoving them in the first team and expect them to play immediately to be a success but identifying that young player who has clearly shown he's got the bottle to do it....Fergie found that kid in Sporting and put him out there.
Telling me that Enzo wasn't a class player before going to Benfica but in 6 months he went from a decent player to a 100m quid player? i don't think that is the case at all
so much is spoken about Utd paying over the odds for players b/c they know the money is there so let's change the narrative a bit with our recruitment
@bosskeano
I would argue United already do that, and point you to the signings of Amad and Pellistri, and to a lesser extent Hannibal.
But the United name will forever mean any possible transfer target will include a United Tax.
But I’m getting off topic now so I’ll leave.
I would argue United already do that, and point you to the signings of Amad and Pellistri, and to a lesser extent Hannibal.
But the United name will forever mean any possible transfer target will include a United Tax.
But I’m getting off topic now so I’ll leave.
hell we still paid 30m though for both amad and pellistri.....the United Tax certainly came into play
These things aren't black and white like buying cars where you know a 4 liter engine will do better than a smaller one therefore the extra cost is justified. Fred cost us 50m and doesn't have the attributes or the performance level of an Enzo Fernandez who cost less than half coming from Argentina.
What you need is a mixture of both, go in for at least one punt per season where your scouts are really sure the player has attributes to be special and then spend on proven talents. The money we should be getting from loan fees for our academy and out of favor players is enough to fund punts on signings like Caicedo, Pellistiri etc. There is a potential gold mine in these type of deals and we should never stop scouting these markets.
To reinforce the above, where did Real Madrid sign Velverde from? Where did we get Ole, Chicharito amongst others from? What would it cost sign a 25 year old player of Ole's talent right now if we were getting him from Germany, England or Spain?
Yeah got everything crossed we will have some more confirmed interested parties soon
I understand that, you cannot always sign expensive players.
In respects to your second point, haven't we always done that though? Dan James, Diallo, Pellestri?
If you talking Valverde, we do that too, Garnacho, Hughill, Mejrbi, Ethan Ennis.
Of course Diallo and Pellestri haven't failed (And yes we could quite easily sell them for more). And Jude is a terrible example because he cost 30m as a 16 year old that everyone in football was aware of. I'm talking about prospects that you can go into Brazil/Argentina/Uruguay/ or any other smaller leagued country and bring them to England for pennies (relatively) with great risk/reward if you trust in your scouting team.
Team results don't necessarily mean every player is performing well, and even if that's the case you have to have depth past a starting XI. Garnacho luckily came from our academy, but is a perfect example of the type of profile you could bring in to provide quality and ability without having to rely on them to be a starting piece every game with huge pressure. Just look at our neighbors in City, who bought Alvarez from Argentina for just 15m to be their backup striker. He's worth 50m now if they wanted to move him on, and even if he was a total flop they would have gotten their money back. Constantly waiting to move for players AFTER they find great success in a big league as a young star is a great way to spend a shiteload of cash every window while risking both the player not panning out, and probably not getting half of that fee back if you have to move them on.
Anyway, Clearly you have a board / transfer agenda against the club because you have named me examples and I have returned with United examples.
Garnacho has not come from our academy, we bought him from Ateletico Madrid, similar to how Real Madrid bought Valverde.
Right, we also bought Malacia for £18m, who could be worth over £30m if we wanted to sell him.
We do go for those players over the years, they haven't worked out for us.
Alvarez was part of the Argentina squad before they bought him, he was already established.
How many players have we bought like Ronaldo at 18 and chucked straight in?
none since him....probably not many before him either so yes he's a diamond in the rough. Not counting rooney bc we bought him at a young age from everton
what i was implying though is finding these young talented guys as you see these other clubs doing...yes i understand patience is different in development but just talking about what seems to be failure on our part as a recruitment team to identify young players who have this potential and bringing them to the club
I don’t find it a failure bringing ones to the club, it’s just they don’t get many chances straight away unless they are exceptional like Ronaldo.
People saying we should have got Caceido before Brighton, but he wouldn’t have hit his chance nearly as quick and bear in mind it took months for him to be a pick for Brighton!
The last point. We can’t buy them all!
Its understandable but since Chicharito we haven't had any and that's why we spent a billion on fees for little to no reward.
I think the issue for us is that we either buy them too early (Amad, Pellistri, Mejbri) or completely fail to manage their transition from youth players to viable players. Just take tonight, for example, why the hell aren't we starting with Pellistri, is it even necessary to play Antony? And when we will ever get a better opportunity to bed him in?
no we can't but can we just at least be in the game for them and identify them through recruitment work
How do you know we don’t identify them? We know we did identify Caceido for example but didn’t want to get involved with his multiple representatives
I feel certain we are going to get better at identifying and recruiting young talent under our new structures. They seem a lot better organised. However we as fans will have to remember that we can’t win every single young player that suddenly starts becoming the next big thing
At least the club didn't get themselves to anymore debt this window. Hopefully, this helps the new owner.
Just trying to bring the thread back on track!
Just trying to bring the thread back on track!
Oh now we buy them too young. So you want us to buy talents but they have to be 20 - 22 years? That is complete nonsense.
Failure to manage the transition of youth players to viable players statement makes sense though.
It doesn't make sense.
I tell you why.
1st - complain we do not sign young players (everyone naming Brighton), saying we need to do more of that.
2nd - Complain that we buy them too young
3rd - Complain that the transition from youth to first team is failed in transition.
4th - Complain when we buy ready made players
Its just complain complain complain.
How can you say a club that has had consecutive games with youth players in the starting squad is failing to transition players?
Garner can barely get a game at Everton
Diallo had a terrible loan at Rangers
Pellestri had an even worse loan at Alaves
In the last few years, Greenwood has come through, Garnacho has come through. So it didnt fail them?
You cant always blame the club, the players are not good enough.
3 or 4pm today
What?
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