Classic Players - Denis Law: The greatest forward in United's history?

[Halds]

That was a great read, thank you very much! Loved the interview. He is a great charachter. Would love to have seen him besides Best and Charlton. What a great team that obviously must have been.

I never knew about his connections with Huddersfield and Shankly.. What a pity, that LFC couldn't afford him, though I'm sure you'll disagree on that one

 

[Physiocrat]

Question is where would you guys rate Denis Law amongst all time greats in world football (compared to other central attacking players i.e. 9's/SS/10's) ?

Let's limit it to second strikers, because in reality that's what he was as an inside forward. A creative player but not a playmaker as such. Off the top of my head here's the great SSs (I will have probably missed some players)

Pele, Ronaldo (R9), Puskas, Baggio, Eusebio, Law, Raul, Rivaldo, Keegan, Dalglish, Sivori, Del Piero,

Tier 1 - Pele, Puskas, Ronaldo, Eusebio,

Tier 2- Law, Baggio, Rivaldo

Tier 3 - Keegan, Dalglish, Sivori, Del Piero, Raul, Mazzola

 

[BlackShark_80]

Let's limit it to second strikers, because in reality that's what he was as an inside forward. A creative player but not a playmaker as such. Off the top of my head here's the great SSs (I will have probably missed some players)

Pele, Ronaldo (R9), Puskas, Baggio, Law, Raul, Rivaldo, Keegan, Dalglish, Sivori, Del Piero,

Tier 1 - Pele, Puskas, Ronaldo

Tier 2- Law, Baggio, Rivaldo

Tier 3 - Keegan, Dalglish, Sivori, Del Piero, Raul

no Kopa, Moreno, Mazzola, Riva, Eusebio, Liedholm, Cruyff, Kubala, and Rummenigge?

 

[Physiocrat]

no Kopa, Moreno, Mazzola, Riva, Eusebio, Liedholm, and Kubala?

Kopa I'd really consider a proto 10. I should have added Eusebio and Mazzola. I don't know enough about Moreno to put him in tbh. Liedholm as a playmaker more than an SS. Didn't Kubala play quite a bit outwide? Riva was a 9 IIRC.

Above list edited.

 

[BlackShark_80]

Kopa I'd really consider a proto 10. I should have added Eusebio and Mazzola. I don't know enough about Moreno to put him in tbh. Liedholm as a playmaker more than an SS. Didn't Kubala play quite a bit outwide? Riva was a 9 IIRC.

Above list edited.

Kubala and Riva were inside forward. at Cagliari Boninsegna was the main striker/9 and Riva played as inside left. Moreno is one of the most underrated footballers of all-time. He was regarded by Argentinean old-timers to be a better player than Alfredo Di Stefano and Diego Maradona. He played as inside-right but sometimes played as attacking midfielder for River Plate.

 

[harms]

Kubala and Riva were inside forward. at Cagliari Boninsegna was the main striker/9 and Riva played as inside left. Moreno is one of the most underrated footballers of all-time. He was regarded by Argentinean old-timers to be a better player than Alfredo Di Stefano and Diego Maradona. He played as inside-right but sometimes played as attacking midfielder for River Plate.

Riva started as a left winger/inside left but his peak was undoubtedly as a center forward. Even with Boninsenga, Riva was a center forward and Boninsega was seconda punta (with Mazzola/Rivera as fantasista)

 

[harms]

Let's limit it to second strikers, because in reality that's what he was as an inside forward. A creative player but not a playmaker as such. Off the top of my head here's the great SSs (I will have probably missed some players)

Pele, Ronaldo (R9), Puskas, Baggio, Eusebio, Law, Raul, Rivaldo, Keegan, Dalglish, Sivori, Del Piero,

Godlike - Pele
Tier 1 - Puskas, Eusebio,
Tier 2- Law, Baggio, Rivaldo, Rummenigge, Meazza
Tier 3 - Keegan, Dalglish, Sivori, Del Piero, Raul, Kaka

Wouldn't classify Ronaldo as such, deleted Mazzola, who was a midfielder first, imo, and added some names.

 

[harms]

Kubala and Riva were inside forward. at Cagliari Boninsegna was the main striker/9 and Riva played as inside left. Moreno is one of the most underrated footballers of all-time. He was regarded by Argentinean old-timers to be a better player than Alfredo Di Stefano and Diego Maradona. He played as inside-right but sometimes played as attacking midfielder for River Plate.

In my opinion both Kubala and Moreno don't fit into "SS" category. They were more - complete attacking players in the mould of Di Stefano or Cruyff

 

[Physiocrat]

Wouldn't classify Ronaldo as such, deleted Mazzola, who was a midfielder first, imo, and added some names.

Meazza is a good call as is Kaka. I considered Rumenigge but I most associate him with being a wide forward more than SS. Even at Barca I still think he had SS attributes which became especially pronounced at Inter where he was at his best. I would always prefer Ronaldo with a proper 9 to give him full-freedom in attack.

Fair enough on Mazzola. I don't know him that well an thought it was reasonable at the time.

 

[Erebus]

My absolute hero - scored on my first ever visit to Old Trafford.

 

[Stack]

Sure thing, you're welcome.

Joga, great piece. A bit of trivia, my dad went to school with Dennis for a few years and played in his school team one season, have a great team photo of the team. The other bit of trivia was my Dad had one paralysed eye which meant he had a really bad squint, apparently he and dad used to try and stand beside eachother in assembly or other events because they looked funny when doing so.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Joga, great piece. A bit of trivia, my dad went to school with Dennis for a few years and played in his school team one season, have a great team photo of the team. The other bit of trivia was my Dad had one paralysed eye which meant he had a really bad squint, apparently he and dad used to try and stand beside eachother in assembly or other events because they looked funny when doing so.

Cheers.



Wow that's amazing. What did your father say about Law's quality when he was a schoolboy? Was his talent apparent then itself?

Is this the pic by any chance?

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

@jojojo @Moriarty @Mr. MUJAC @charlton66 @Paul the Wolf @Roger @mitchmouse @Red For Ever @fortyseven

Thoughts on the above? I tend to think describing Law simply as a poacher and a #9 overlooks Law's creative contribution. Does anyone else agree that was Law just a fox-in-the box, or something more?

I was way too young to be tactically astute in those days...people didn't even mention it.

But Law started as an inside-forward (attacking midfielder) and would play off the main centre-forward. In the mid-late 1960's Busby pushed him more up front on his own and took advantage of his natural predatory forward style. He was also picking up a lot of injuries so with Best coming through Busby made Law the focal point.

We have had some cracking centre-forwards in our history...looking at goals and games the following would be my top five.

1. Law
2. Rowley
3. Taylor
4. Viollet
5. Van Nistelrooy

Only Taylor and Van Nistelrooy were 100% full time centre-forwards.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@jojojo @Moriarty @Mr. MUJAC @charlton66 @Paul the Wolf @Roger @mitchmouse @Red For Ever @fortyseven

Thoughts on the above? I tend to think describing Law simply as a poacher and a #9 overlooks Law's creative contribution. Does anyone else agree that was Law just a fox-in-the box, or something more?

I was way too young to be tactically astute in those days...people didn't even mention it.

But Law started as an inside-forward (attacking midfielder) and would play off the main centre-forward. In the mid-late 1960's Busby pushed him more up front on his own and took advantage of his natural predatory forward style. He was also picking up a lot of injuries so with Best coming through Busby made Law the focal point.

We have had some cracking centre-forwards in our history...looking at goals and games the following would be my top five.

1. Law
2. Rowley
3. Taylor
4. Viollet
5. Van Nistelrooy

Only Taylor and Van Nistelrooy were 100% full time centre-forwards.

Yeah, it's an interesting topic for discussion. It's fair to say Law was an excellent all-round forward and liked to get about, but he definitely seemed to have more freedom for Scotland (dropping so deep as to collect the ball from the goalie, di Stefano/Cruyff style) etc.

Came across this interesting quote which might explain things a bit.

It was Matt Busby who revolutionised Law's role in football. 'When Denis arrived at Old Trafford he was all action, all over the pitch,' said Harry Gregg. 'He was in my eyes, the complete inside forward. Matt Busby, though, had other ideas and I remember the day he transformed Denis into a purely attacking weapon. We had been going through a rough patch, our performances did not match Matt's expectations. Then, during one team talk, he announced, "From now on, Denis Law doesn't come back over the halfway line." I thought to myself, "That's a waste, this guy has so much to offer all over the pitch." In the end Matt was right. Denis went on to become even more of a prolific goalscorer - his 236 goals in 393 games is all the evidence you need".

Also as Mr MUJAC aptly points out, accumulating injuries and primarily the emergence of Charlton-Best meant that he played less of a roaming role and focused more on getting the ball into the net. Watching him play against Leicester in the 1963 final and against Milan in 1969, there was a a world of a difference. Not that Law couldn't play a more dynamic and a free-roaming role in the late sixties (evident enough in his fantastic performance for Scotland against Germany in the 1969 WC qualifiers).

 

[Buster15]

Playing Style

Many seem to have this warped conception that Law was a speedy and pure goalscorer in the mould of a Greaves or a Romario, who primarily operated on the shoulder of the last man and solely focused on putting the ball into the net. No. Law had much much more in his locker. Whilst Law was a goal-scoring supremo, do not make the mistake of underestimating his all-round game. As a player, Law had everything - flair, bravery, the ruthlessness streak, technique and the magical ability to keep fans right on the edge of their seats.

As Law himself said





A perfect compilation which illustrates the multi-faceted game-play of the cultured, jet-heeled Scot. I advise anyone and everyone to watch it.

Oh I think there were 1 or 2 similarities with Jimmy Greaves. Both were highly instinctive players who possessed the ability to know where they needed to be to receive the ball and score.

But Denis Law was a much more complete player than Greaves who was primarily a goal poacher.
And it is really important to remember the era that Law played in.
Very physical defenders and referees who allowed strong tackling.
No yellow or red cards.
No substitutes.
Terrible pitches.
The only medical treatment was a wet sponge.

And yet, Denis Law as well as George Best and Bobby Charlton were able to glide over those atrocious pitches and hard man defending to play at a level above.

He treated goal scoring as his job and apart from raising his hand, never made a fuss.
No stupid knee slides or that kind of thing.
Ok. I have scored. Lets get on with the job....

 

[simplyared]

No offence but wouldn't have Denis above Bestie regarding thread title. It is followed by a question mark which would suggest it not being a statement. Having experienced them both during their playing days utd's greatest forward ever would have to be Best imo.

 

[harms]

Oh I think there were 1 or 2 similarities with Jimmy Greaves. Both were highly instinctive players who possessed the ability to know where they needed to be to receive the ball and score.

But Denis Law was a much more complete player than Greaves who was primarily a goal poacher.

Yeah, no. I'd have Law as a slightly more complete one especially due to his combativeness and physicality that he often used in the middle of the pitch, but Greaves wasn't primarily a goal poacher, that's a huge misrepresentation of him as a player.

He wasn't even playing as a central striker most of the time, he usually played behind a more conventional physical centre forward. Greaves was a fantastic dribbler and an underrated passer of the ball who quite enjoyed dropping deeper and participating in the build up.

Here's an example of a typical Greaves performance (Spurs trashed us 5:1 that night despite the entire Holy Trinity being on the pitch):

 

[Denis79]

Question is where would you guys rate Denis Law amongst all time greats in world football (compared to other central attacking players i.e. 9's/SS/10's) ?

I'm too young to have seen him play but if you ask my old man he is among the best ever.

 

[davidmichael]

No offence but wouldn't have Denis above Bestie regarding thread title. It is followed by a question mark which would suggest it not being a statement. Having experienced them both during their playing days utd's greatest forward ever would have to be Best imo.

Best was a winger whilst Law was a striker, they were back in the day when 4-4-2 was pretty much the standard formation but Best was a rarity who could play right or left.

As far as being a pure centre forward I think you’d have to rank Law and Van Nistelrooy as 1a and 1b in regards to United’s best ever centre forward and it’s hard to pick between them, my Grandad who was a massive United fan said Law was the best European striker of the 60’s and only behind Pele.

What isn’t in question through is how truly special ‘The Holy Trinity’ was as you had 3 Balon D’Or winners all playing together at the same time at their peak which is the same as R9, Figo and Zidane all playing together although I’d argue our trinity were better as R9 was past his best due to injuries whilst Zidane and Figo were in their 30’s by then.

 

[Buster15]

Yeah, no. I'd have Law as a slightly more complete one especially due to his combativeness and physicality and he often used in the middle of the pitch, but Greaves wasn't primarily a goal poacher, that's a huge misrepresentation of him as a player.

He wasn't even playing as a central striker most of the time, he usually played behind a more conventional physical centre forward. Greaves was a fantastic dribbler and an underrated passer of the ball who quite enjoyed dropping deeper and participating in the build up.

Here's an example of a typical Greaves performance (Spurs trashed us 5:1 that night despite the entire Holy Trinity being on the pitch):

Very interesting and thank you.