City v United: Manchester's Cold War

jackofalltrades said:
There's a debate going on about that on another thread as you know, but we've won 20 to their 18 league titles. But my point is that they didn't use to take us seriously - how many league titles did we have when Ferguson took over (8?), honestly don't remember. As I say, they used to guffaw and say come back when......And who would have believed you if you'd said by 2012 we'll have more leagues than you and by 2017 more trophies ? But here we are.

The fan base surely goes with success in the major trophies ? The top ones are the PL and CL in my view, and as I said in my post they've got the money, in Pep they've got not only a proven manager but one who has the experience and team from Barça's "Mas" to propel them forwards, and the ambition. With modern technology, how far are they from creating a massive fanbase, success permitting ? As you say about our situation re Liverpool, it was us being more successful during a period when their history of title wins was fading from young fans' minds.

My main point is that we absolutely must take them seriously as a threat, or we will fall behind.
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But with Liverpool, they've had a generation of new fans not accustomed to them being at the top of the league bar say once a decade.
And they're still comfortably higher on fanbase than the Citys.

Although it'd be interesting to see a chart mapping it
 
Sandikan said:
But with Liverpool, they've had a generation of new fans not accustomed to them being at the top of the league bar say once a decade.
And they're still comfortably higher on fanbase than the Citys.

Although it'd be interesting to see a chart mapping it
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Yes it would and I'm sure someone on the Caf can provide it:)
 
MadMike said:
I see. Did BBC get it very wrong or did these kids belong to City's youth team at some point, just not now? It feels like a well researched article to be so wrong.
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Oh no they were a part of their academy, I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the fact that they were sent their by their dads over out academy, because theirs is better.
 
Sammyjunn said:
United will always be the biggest club in Manchester, no battle whatsoever.
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Not to kids. When I was growing up, it took me many many years to find out that Liverpool were once a good team. I am being serious. I never saw them win things and had to rely on seeing the ex pool players with the caption "has won league 2 times, champions league 4 times etc" and I was like "what? when? how?" and then my pops explained that Liverpool were good when I was too young to appreciate football. This could happen to the next generation. Even knowing this, I didn't care about Pool until I matured a bit.
 
Leonard17 said:
Oh no they were a part of their academy, I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the fact that they were sent their by their dads over out academy, because theirs is better.
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RVP's son preferred City's academy after training with both, which is perfectly normal just like there are tons of kids preferred United over them. Fletcher's twins were kicked out of the academy after someone found out they trained with City. Neville's son was never with us at the first place I believe. Anyway non of those are good talents I heard except for Neville's kid and he's with Valencia now. We have Butts, Ibra and Giggs's son in the academy but unless they're really good it hardly matters.
 
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They swapped out the owners, players, club philosophy and stadium. Now they've got to get rid of the fans. The new super breed of full on plastic would be better than your traditional City pessimist. Kill them all, get some strangers in to cheer the CL anthem. I don't mean that literally, but they should doing it in actuality.
 
Maybe ive been out of Manchester too long but I just don't care about them. They're about as much our rivals to me as Stockport or Bury. There's no history between us like Leeds, and there's certainly nothing as deep as with Liverpool. Other than sharing the city name there's nothing. Before the oil money took over you just didn't think about them.
 
The article also tries to portray that city are trying to build the next generation of supporters by enticing the kids into the academy so that even if they fail to break through, they will still support the club.
 
namco said:
Their youth system will go the way of Chelsea's. They will stockpile players but few (if any) will make it to being first team regulars.

The main reason we have had so much success with our youth system was down to SAF. He knew what was going on at the club from top to bottom. The likes of Scholes & Beckham were introduced to him as children & he kept a close eye on their progress. This is how he knew they were ready for the first team.

No manager at City is going to be taking an interest in the youth system. Why would they take a risk promoting from within when they have an unlimited transfer budget. They can just poach established players from other clubs. They have spent a huge amount on young players in the last 2 years. Why would they do this if they had some promising talent coming through.
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I'm bookmarking this post for future reference, and will revisit it in 5 years time when I can show you how wide of the mark you are. The notion that Guardiola has no interest in promoting players to the first team from our academy is utterly laughable even by your own shite posting standards.

By the way, can you please explain to us all why you were trawling through a rival forum and bleating about it on here less than an hour after United had won the League Cup on Sunday evening? After all, worrying about what City fans were saying at that point would be the last thing on the minds of every true United fan as they would've surely been too busy celebrating. Then again, I think you've proved time and again that you're not, never have been, and never will be a true fan of their club. You only exist to obsess about City:lol:
 
M18CTID said:
I'm bookmarking this post for future reference, and will revisit it in 5 years time when I can show you how wide of the mark you are. The notion that Guardiola has no interest in promoting players to the first team from our academy is utterly laughable even by your own shite posting standards.

By the way, can you please explain to us all why you were trawling through a rival forum and bleating about it on here less than an hour after United had won the League Cup on Sunday evening? After all, worrying about what City fans were saying at that point would be the last thing on the minds of every true United fan as they would've surely been too busy celebrating. Then again, I think you've proved time and again that you're not, never have been, and never will be a true fan of their club. You only exist to obsess about City:lol:
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Exactly.
He hates City more than he loves United.
Very sad.
 
City won the lottery, and have had a couple of good years. Top players coming in, top manager(s ?), couple of titles. And.... all the ones I know are STILL as bitter as ever. It would take decades for that to change (imo), and we'd have to get relegated at some point too.

I'll never forget congratulating a few City fans when they won the Prem. They were not happy with that at all. A RED being pleased for them!!! Outrageous. I was supposed to be sobbing in my beer for rest of eternity. Sorry Blues, thats not how we roll. Sustained success makes you more humble and able appreciate other teams when they play good football. Good luck with that :D
 
MuFc_1992 said:
The article also tries to portray that city are trying to build the next generation of supporters by enticing the kids into the academy so that even if they fail to break through, they will still support the club.
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That doesn't make sense.
 
Adisa said:
That doesn't make sense.
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I was referring to this paragraph in the article
“Historically we’ve had more players go to United. But this is the generation who haven’t known great success at United. The 1999 Treble means nothing to them. They weren’t born. They don’t know where Maine Road is. That’s why there are far more young City fans now than there are United."
Are they using youth football as a route to become more popular than United among newer generation of fans in Manchester?
 
MancFanFromManc said:
City won the lottery, and have had a couple of good years. Top players coming in, top manager(s ?), couple of titles. And.... all the ones I know are STILL as bitter as ever. It would take decades for that to change (imo), and we'd have to get relegated at some point too.

I'll never forget congratulating a few City fans when they won the Prem. They were not happy with that at all. A RED being pleased for them!!! Outrageous. I was supposed to be sobbing in my beer for rest of eternity. Sorry Blues, thats not how we roll. Sustained success makes you more humble and able appreciate other teams when they play good football. Good luck with that :D
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It's one thing offering congratulations to some mates on winning the title - most of us are capable of doing that when we're not sniping at each other - but are you seriously claiming you were actually pleased about it? Then again, you've not specified which title win it was and I'm guessing it was the one where we pipped Liverpool as I doubt you were in too great a mood in the aftermath of our 2012 title win.

You also make out that your own personal actions speak for every single United fan out there and not a single City fan is capable of such humbleness - that's some serious blanket generalisation right there. I'll also add that when City won the play-off final against Gillingham in 1999 just 4 days after United had completed the treble in the Nou Camp, one United fan I know - and a decent one at that - was utterly distraught about it. This despite the fact that he'd been at the Nou Camp himself a few days earlier. And guess what? I have a lot of respect for the way he felt because unlike some of his patronising United-supporting mates claiming to be pleased about City getting promoted, from a pure rivalry point of view he actually "gets" it. No fan - regardless of who they support - should ever want their rivals to win so much as a corner unless the result in some way benefits them. However, that doesn't mean we can't have objective discussions about our rivals or have some respect for our rival-supporting mates who invest a lot of time, money, and effort following their teams across the country and beyond. As I always say to any of them - "I hope you have a great trip and stay safe, but I hope you get totally stuffed on the pitch".
 
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GroteBergMan98 said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08h58xv

At 19:30 BT, an 1 hour and half long discussion will be on BBC Radio 5 live:

Once it was only about trophies and derby day wins. Now the battle to be the biggest club in Manchester has gone outside the stadium and into the streets and parks beyond. A fight not only for the best footballing talent in town but for the heart and minds of the city's kids too.
We hear from those on the front line - youth coaches, scouts, academy directors, parents - about how children as young as four are being wooed and won, and how an entente at the top level is masking an increasingly intense rivalry on the playing pitches and playgrounds.

Will be interesting to hear what these people have to say, maybe we can get some discussion about the subject in here as well.
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Enjoyed listening to that. Thanks for sharing the original iPlayer content.
 
MuFc_1992 said:
I was referring to this paragraph in the article
“Historically we’ve had more players go to United. But this is the generation who haven’t known great success at United. The 1999 Treble means nothing to them. They weren’t born. They don’t know where Maine Road is. That’s why there are far more young City fans now than there are United."
Are they using youth football as a route to become more popular than United among newer generation of fans in Manchester?
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Perhaps, but whoever said that must also be suggesting that kids don't hold Man. Utd. in as high a regard as they used to be held by older fans because they see Man. City with all of their big-name players, modern infrastructure, social media presence via YouTube and other such platforms, etc. That makes sense as I now see more kids in the Middle East with Man. City shirts on than before. However, I don't know what it's like in Manchester.
 
M18CTID said:
It's one thing offering congratulations to some mates on winning the title - most of us are capable of doing that when we're not sniping at each other - but are you seriously claiming you were actually pleased about it? Then again, you've not specified which title win it was and I'm guessing it was the one where we pipped Liverpool as I doubt you were in too great a mood in the aftermath of our 2012 title win.

You also make out that your own personal actions speak for every single United fan out there and not a single City fan is capable of such humbleness - that's some serious blanket generalisation right there. I'll also add that when City won the play-off final against Gillingham in 1999 just 4 days after United had completed the treble in the Nou Camp, one United fan I know - and a decent one at that - was utterly distraught about it. This despite the fact that he'd been at the Nou Camp himself a few days earlier. And guess what? I have a lot of respect for the way he felt because unlike some of his patronising United-supporting mates claiming to be pleased about City getting promoted, from a pure rivalry point of view he actually "gets" it. No fan - regardless of who they support - should ever want their rivals to win so much as a corner unless the result in some way benefits them. However, that doesn't mean we can't have objective discussions about our rivals or have some respect for our rival-supporting mates who invest a lot of time, money, and effort following their teams across the country and beyond. As I always say to any of them - "I hope you have a great trip and stay safe, but I hope you get totally stuffed on the pitch".
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I was at OT when we gave Ronaldo a standing ovation for scoring a hatrick for Real Madrid. I was in Milan when we applauded Gatuso for a great performance for AC Milan, and in the Nou camp for a 3-3 where BOTH sets of fans gave everyone a standing ovation, AND all drank together on the Ramblas afterwards. I was at Wembley in '95 when we lost to Everton, and can actually be seen on the official BBC vid applauding their players with the FA Cup (thankfully still, the only final I've ever seen us lose)

City were so shit for so long, and your fans so bitter for so long, that YES i could be genuinely pleased when you won (and yes partly cos you stopped Liverpoo getting their grubby mits on OUR trophy - and make no mistake the Prem Trophy is OUR trophy - we only lend it out occasionally just to keep things interesting) and partly because I knew that City fans would hate it that we could be so gracious. Sustained success allows us take a football view and not always have red blinkers on, we recognize and appreciate great football. Aquero, Silva, Ya Ya - all great signings and great players, and all enjoyable to watch, and who have been great for the Prem

This doesnt apply to Liverpool cos they have been successful and I still see them as our main rivals, not City.
 
MancFanFromManc said:
I was at OT when we gave Ronaldo a standing ovation for scoring a hatrick for Real Madrid. I was in Milan when we applauded Gatuso for a great performance for AC Milan, and in the Nou camp for a 3-3 where BOTH sets of fans gave everyone a standing ovation, AND all drank together on the Ramblas afterwards. I was at Wembley in '95 when we lost to Everton, and can actually be seen on the official BBC vid applauding their players with the FA Cup (thankfully still, the only final I've ever seen us lose)

City were so shit for so long, and your fans so bitter for so long, that YES i could be genuinely pleased when you won (and yes partly cos you stopped Liverpoo getting their grubby mits on OUR trophy - and make no mistake the Prem Trophy is OUR trophy - we only lend it out occasionally just to keep things interesting) and partly because I knew that City fans would hate it that we could be so gracious. Sustained success allows us take a football view and not always have red blinkers on, we recognize and appreciate great football. Aquero, Silva, Ya Ya - all great signings and great players, and all enjoyable to watch, and who have been great for the Prem

This doesnt apply to Liverpool cos they have been successful and I still see them as our main rivals, not City.
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It's each to their own though as I alluded to in my previous post. Anyway, you've clarified that it was the occasion when we beat Liverpool to the title rather than the, cough cough, title win in 2012 so I'm not really surprised as I know plenty of reds who sooner City won it instead of them. In fact, there was a point during that run-in when the media wankathon was in full on overdrive over Liverpool possibly winning it where part of me was wishing we were battling you lot for the league instead of Liverpool, because we really wouldn't have heard the last of it if they'd won it, whereas I'd had years and years of getting used to United winning stuff and the novelty wouldn't have been anywhere near as great as Liverpool winning it for the first time in what would've been nearly a quarter of a century.

As for your first paragraph, there's nothing unique about any of that - when it doesn't involve hated rivals, that kind of stuff goes on all over the place. I've done more than my fair share of mixing with fans or European teams when following City away on the continent, as have many fans of other clubs.
 
M18CTID said:
It's each to their own though as I alluded to in my previous post. Anyway, you've clarified that it was the occasion when we beat Liverpool to the title rather than the, cough cough, title win in 2012 so I'm not really surprised as I know plenty of reds who sooner City won it instead of them. In fact, there was a point during that run-in when the media wankathon was in full on overdrive over Liverpool possibly winning it where part of me was wishing we were battling you lot for the league instead of Liverpool, because we really wouldn't have heard the last of it if they'd won it, whereas I'd had years and years of getting used to United winning stuff and the novelty wouldn't have been anywhere near as great as Liverpool winning it for the first time in what would've been nearly a quarter of a century.

As for your first paragraph, there's nothing unique about any of that - when it doesn't involve hated rivals, that kind of stuff goes on all over the place. I've done more than my fair share of mixing with fans or European teams when following City away on the continent, as have many fans of other clubs.
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Fair reply that, cheers
 
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