Christian Pulisic | Chelsea player

Terminator said:
One thing is for sure though, Chelsea will have great attacking depth next year and certainly better than United's IMO. First XI's are up for debate depending on how new signings set in.
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But you can debate that. At the end of the day you can only have 3/4 players max in an attacking front three/four. If Utd get Sancho then we will have 4 world class or potentially world class options in those positions with James and Ighalo providing further support. Then if you include Bruno and Pogba behind then that’s far more firepower than Chelsea even with the new signings.

Martial > Werner
Rashford > Pulisic
Greenwood > Giroud
Sancho > Ziyech
James <<Havertz
Ighalo = Abraham
Bruno >> Mount

Also add in Pogba for Utd who can cover Bruno and the attackers.

At best you can argue that they have improved their quality but as I’ve said repeatedly how often do 3 new attacking signings come in, click together and all fully realise their potential. I think it’s very unlikely all those players all hit and even less chance they do it from next season. Utd have the advantage of using an existing attacking system with only one new addition who on the surface looks to fit like a glove.
 
cyberman said:
You allowed him to stay because Dortmund wouldn't have sold him in January and it was the only way you could sign him with a ban coming up
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May very well be the case, but I still don't see how that will constitute a panic buy poorly negotiated and overpaid for as said by the poster I quoted. With 58m we could very well have moved on to someone else who'd be immediately available to play but we didn't. Youd argue we probably needed him more than Dortmund considering how our season was going around that time. Even Sarri seemingly implied he didn't know much about the deal. We paid 58m in January for a potential WC highly coveted 20yr old winger with 1 yr left on his contract in the summer. For all we know, if we had waited to “negotiate properly” he'd be playing for a different club now.

58m for 20yr old Pulisic in 2019 is akin to 32m for 21 yr Hazard in 2013 and Hazard was even closer to a panic buy than Pulisic was.
 
Mount's Goatieson said:
May very well be the case, but I still don't see how that will constitute a panic buy poorly negotiated and overpaid for as said by the poster I quoted. With 58m we could very well have moved on to someone else who'd be immediately available to play but we didn't. Youd argue we probably needed him more than Dortmund considering how our season was going around that time. Even Sarri seemingly implied he didn't know much about the deal. We paid 58m in January for a potential WC highly coveted 20yr old winger with 1 yr left on his contract in the summer. For all we know, if we had waited to “negotiate properly” he'd be playing for a different club now.

58m for 20yr old Pulisic in 2019 is akin to 32m for 21 yr Hazard in 2013 and Hazard was even closer to a panic buy than Pulisic was.
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He wasnt even getting into the Dortmund side. I personally think he was overpriced but you paid a premium for how the transfer had to be laid out and you knew you had Hazard money coming and a summers saving from the ban.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
But you can debate that. At the end of the day you can only have 3/4 players max in an attacking front three/four. If Utd get Sancho then we will have 4 world class or potentially world class options in those positions with James and Ighalo providing further support. Then if you include Bruno and Pogba behind then that’s far more firepower than Chelsea even with the new signings.

Martial > Werner
Rashford > Pulisic
Greenwood > Giroud
Sancho > Ziyech
James <<Havertz
Ighalo = Abraham
Bruno >> Mount

Also add in Pogba for Utd who can cover Bruno and the attackers.

At best you can argue that they have improved their quality but as I’ve said repeatedly how often do 3 new attacking signings come in, click together and all fully realise their potential. I think it’s very unlikely all those players all hit and even less chance they do it from next season. Utd have the advantage of using an existing attacking system with only one new addition who on the surface looks to fit like a glove.
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Martial>Werner : its probably no coincidence that I only see this on a United forum. Unless you're factoring in the “PL untested” thing which Bruno has very well proven does not apply to every player. All other viable metrics proves otherwise though. I get that United fans rate Martial, but is it beyond reason that others don't particularly share in those sentiments. I genuinely don't remember the last time Martial got a cap for France. A France team that has frozen out Benzema and starts Giroud(which I'll come to in an even sweeter comparison below)

Rashford > Pulisic : Rashford has come in leaps and bounds over the season and its being quiet impressive. Thing is, United play with a LF while we play with a LW. Rashford is more productive in a LF role while Pulisic does best in LW. I wouldn't trade a fully fit Pulisic on our LW for Rashford, you wouldn't trade Rashford for Pulisic on your LF role either. One the eye test and purely aesthetic part of the game you normally want from your winger, Pulisic wins out for me.

Greenwood > Giroud : an 18yr old upstart over a seasoned, experienced World Cup winning PL striker? Greenwood has loads of potential, but when it comes to crunch, I'd rather have a seasoned pro in my locker room to see me through. Greenwood has a far higher ceiling than Giroud ever had, but right now he is 18, let him grow first.

Sancho > Ziyech : of course I agree with you. Sancho’s numbers are insane for his age. Then again, one is a 20yr old joining the biggest club in England for record fees and the other is a 27yr old experienced player who has already seen past his growing pains. Sancho will be a far better player than Ziyech in the future but I would be surprised if Ziyech settles better than Sancho next season. He is already training with us since the Norwich game.

I'd rather Bruno compares to Havertz though as both would be starters not James ; Bruno > Havertz : Again I choose experience over potential. Havertz has a very high ceiling but right now (and probably next season) Bruno is the better playmaker as I think Havertz will need time to bed into the PL. Even if he hits the ground running, I think Bruno will have a better individual season than him.

Ighalo > Tammy : wanted to just laugh this one off but I'd just say no. Tammy's score more goals than Ighalo could manage even when he was a starting PL striker. I'd pick Tammy as a back up PL striker anyday over Ighalo. This guy is on loan from Chinese for crying out loud.

Mount > James : I'm done. :)

Sorry last edit: think we could balance things out much better with;

CHO >= James ?
Pogba > Mount.
 
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Mount's Goatieson said:
Martial>Werner : its probably no coincidence that I only see this on a United forum. Unless you're factoring in the “PL untested” thing which Bruno has very well proven does not apply to every player. All other viable metrics proves otherwise though. I get that United fans rate Martial, but is it beyond reason that others don't particularly share in those sentiments. I genuinely don't remember the last time Martial got a cap for France. A France team that has frozen out Benzema and starts Giroud(which I'll come to in an even sweeter comparison below)

Rashford > Pulisic : Rashford has come in leaps and bounds over the season and its being quiet impressive. Thing is, United play with a LF while we play with a LW. Rashford is more productive in a LF role while Pulisic does best in LW. I wouldn't trade a fully fit Pulisic on our LW for Rashford, you wouldn't trade Rashford for Pulisic on your LF role either. One the eye test and purely aesthetic part of the game you normally want from your winger, Pulisic wins out for me.

Greenwood > Giroud : an 18yr old upstart over a seasoned, experienced World Cup winning PL striker? Greenwood has loads of potential, but when it comes to crunch, I'd rather have a seasoned pro in my locker room to see me through. Greenwood has a far higher ceiling than Giroud ever had, but right now he is 18, let him grow first.
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I haven't taken much scope on the PL proven thing since we thought it was a good idea to pick Torres over Aguero.
 
Mount's Goatieson said:
Martial>Werner : its probably no coincidence that I only see this on a United forum. Unless you're factoring in the “PL untested” thing which Bruno has very well proven does not apply to every player. All other viable metrics proves otherwise though. I get that United fans rate Martial, but is it beyond reason that others don't particularly share in those sentiments. I genuinely don't remember the last time Martial got a cap for France. A France team that has frozen out Benzema and starts Giroud(which I'll come to in an even sweeter comparison below)

Rashford > Pulisic : Rashford has come in leaps and bounds over the season and its being quiet impressive. Thing is, United play with a LF while we play with a LW. Rashford is more productive in a LF role while Pulisic does best in LW. I wouldn't trade a fully fit Pulisic on our LW for Rashford, you wouldn't trade Rashford for Pulisic on your LF role either. One the eye test and purely aesthetic part of the game you normally want from your winger, Pulisic wins out for me.

Greenwood > Giroud : an 18yr old upstart over a seasoned, experienced World Cup winning PL striker? Greenwood has loads of potential, but when it comes to crunch, I'd rather have a seasoned pro in my locker room to see me through. Greenwood has a far higher ceiling than Giroud ever had, but right now he is 18, let him grow first.

Sancho > Ziyech : of course I agree with you. Sancho’s numbers are insane for his age. Then again, one is a 20yr old joining the biggest club in England for record fees and the other is a 27yr old experienced player who has already seen past his growing pains. Sancho will be a far better player than Ziyech in the future but I would be surprised if Ziyech settles better than Sancho next season. He is already training with us since the Norwich game.

I'd rather Bruno compares to Havertz though as both would be starters not James ; Bruno > Havertz : Again I choose experience over potential. Havertz has a very high ceiling but right now (and probably next season) Bruno is the better playmaker as I think Havertz will need time to bed into the PL. Even if he hits the ground running, I think Bruno will have a better individual season than him.
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You should wait until these players actually kick a ball for Chelsea before telling us how good they are.
 
Pow said:
Sigh if only we got that aguero Godin move through...
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Ageuro deal really hurt missing out. Probably the most hurtful in recent years over Robinho(with hindsight) and Neymar( never beating out Real and Barca but one still dreamed).
Missing defensive targets never really bothers me that much(Alex Sandro comes to mind) but that might probably change under Frankie.
 
Dancfc said:
I haven't taken much scope on the PL proven thing since we thought it was a good idea to pick Torres over Aguero.
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Put it this way, if Chelsea had signed Martial from United, and United signed Werner as his replacement, I wouldn't be complaining and I'm not complaining now that we have Werner, and not Martial. Both are excellent players, young guys still but very experienced.

If I did the same thought experiment with Rashford and Pulisic, I'd probably come to a similar conclusion.

If who you'd pick between these players comes down to the team you support, then they're very similar players, and one could argue for eternity without ever agreeing.
 
Mount's Goatieson said:
Martial>Werner : its probably no coincidence that I only see this on a United forum. Unless you're factoring in the “PL untested” thing which Bruno has very well proven does not apply to every player. All other viable metrics proves otherwise though. I get that United fans rate Martial, but is it beyond reason that others don't particularly share in those sentiments. I genuinely don't remember the last time Martial got a cap for France. A France team that has frozen out Benzema and starts Giroud(which I'll come to in an even sweeter comparison below)

Rashford > Pulisic : Rashford has come in leaps and bounds over the season and its being quiet impressive. Thing is, United play with a LF while we play with a LW. Rashford is more productive in a LF role while Pulisic does best in LW. I wouldn't trade a fully fit Pulisic on our LW for Rashford, you wouldn't trade Rashford for Pulisic on your LF role either. One the eye test and purely aesthetic part of the game you normally want from your winger, Pulisic wins out for me.

Greenwood > Giroud : an 18yr old upstart over a seasoned, experienced World Cup winning PL striker? Greenwood has loads of potential, but when it comes to crunch, I'd rather have a seasoned pro in my locker room to see me through. Greenwood has a far higher ceiling than Giroud ever had, but right now he is 18, let him grow first.

Sancho > Ziyech : of course I agree with you. Sancho’s numbers are insane for his age. Then again, one is a 20yr old joining the biggest club in England for record fees and the other is a 27yr old experienced player who has already seen past his growing pains. Sancho will be a far better player than Ziyech in the future but I would be surprised if Ziyech settles better than Sancho next season. He is already training with us since the Norwich game.

I'd rather Bruno compares to Havertz though as both would be starters not James ; Bruno > Havertz : Again I choose experience over potential. Havertz has a very high ceiling but right now (and probably next season) Bruno is the better playmaker as I think Havertz will need time to bed into the PL. Even if he hits the ground running, I think Bruno will have a better individual season than him.
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I agree with you to a large extent when it comes to Giroud/Greenwood. Rashford has in my opinion showed a lot more than Pulisic any way you slice it, and he’s easier on my eye, so that might be a matter of taste.

Regarding Sancho/Ziyech and Martial/Werner, these are very talented players (one of which is a Dortmund player) who all will have question marks over them on wether they continue their current trends this coming season. Martial because he has only recently developped one notch further and has for only a short period of time played at the level of effectiveness as say Werner, the other three because it will take for them to adapt and continue to function remarkably well under new circumstances in new teams. Player by player, I don’t see the dirrerence bigger than that ihe function of the team will have much more to say about their effectiveness than their individual differences.

Re changing leagues and teams, I remember all too well my excitement about Shinji Kagawa and Henrikh Mkhitaryan to take a Sancho (or Werner) for a granted success. Though I think it has less to do with the relative leagues, and more to do with the changing of environments. Almost all players will mostly look as good as they function in their environments.

I think the change of environments that has taken place in house at Manchester after going from Mourinho to Solskjær, is maybe as big as the difference between Bundesliga and Premier League in itself, and Martial seems to benefit heavily on that.

It will be interesting to see how Chelsea and United’s new players continue to look next year.
 
MadMike said:
This has become a generic "man utd vs chelsea" comparison thread
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In all honesty, othet threads have ended up that way. The Havertz thread had to be cleared by the mods, and I'm pretty sure this one will go the same way eventually.
 
Mount's Goatieson said:
Martial>Werner : its probably no coincidence that I only see this on a United forum. Unless you're factoring in the “PL untested” thing which Bruno has very well proven does not apply to every player. All other viable metrics proves otherwise though. I get that United fans rate Martial, but is it beyond reason that others don't particularly share in those sentiments. I genuinely don't remember the last time Martial got a cap for France. A France team that has frozen out Benzema and starts Giroud(which I'll come to in an even sweeter comparison below)

Rashford > Pulisic : Rashford has come in leaps and bounds over the season and its being quiet impressive. Thing is, United play with a LF while we play with a LW. Rashford is more productive in a LF role while Pulisic does best in LW. I wouldn't trade a fully fit Pulisic on our LW for Rashford, you wouldn't trade Rashford for Pulisic on your LF role either. One the eye test and purely aesthetic part of the game you normally want from your winger, Pulisic wins out for me.

Greenwood > Giroud : an 18yr old upstart over a seasoned, experienced World Cup winning PL striker? Greenwood has loads of potential, but when it comes to crunch, I'd rather have a seasoned pro in my locker room to see me through. Greenwood has a far higher ceiling than Giroud ever had, but right now he is 18, let him grow first.

Sancho > Ziyech : of course I agree with you. Sancho’s numbers are insane for his age. Then again, one is a 20yr old joining the biggest club in England for record fees and the other is a 27yr old experienced player who has already seen past his growing pains. Sancho will be a far better player than Ziyech in the future but I would be surprised if Ziyech settles better than Sancho next season. He is already training with us since the Norwich game.

I'd rather Bruno compares to Havertz though as both would be starters not James ; Bruno > Havertz : Again I choose experience over potential. Havertz has a very high ceiling but right now (and probably next season) Bruno is the better playmaker as I think Havertz will need time to bed into the PL. Even if he hits the ground running, I think Bruno will have a better individual season than him.

Ighalo > Tammy : wanted to just laugh this one off but I'd just say no. Tammy's score more goals than Ighalo could manage even when he was a starting PL striker. I'd pick Tammy as a back up PL striker anyday over Ighalo. This guy is on loan from Chinese for crying out loud.

Mount > James : I'm done. :)
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Fair enough and time will tell. One thing I’ll say though is you are massively underrating Martial, he could easily be the best striker in the league, Unbelievable talent who is just starting to really fulfil his potential.
 
WeePat said:
In all honesty, othet threads have ended up that way. The Havertz thread had to be cleared by the mods, and I'm pretty sure this one will go the same way eventually.
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I don't understand why though. If people want to make player by player comparisons of squads and such there is a thread for it...
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2019-20-rivals-chelsea.448178/

Just reply to a post from this thread, on that thread and continue the discussion from where you left off but in the right space.

I've got to go back couple of pages to see something specific on Pulisic.
 
Dancfc said:
Does that also apply to Sancho/United?
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I suppose so. Theres just no way Chelsea fans have seen enough of these players to make statements like these. They would have seen 10x more live games from 18 yo Greenwood alone than they have of the new signings.
I didnt even see a Chelsea fan mention Werner before he was strongly linked with you.
 
MadMike said:
I don't understand why though. If people want to make player by player comparisons of squads and such there is a thread for it...
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2019-20-rivals-chelsea.448178/

Just reply to a post from this thread, on that thread and continue the discussion from where you left off but in the right space.

I've got to go back couple of pages to see something specific on Pulisic.
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For what it's worth, I agree with you.

These things just tend to happen though, when someone posts something another person considers wildly outrageous ,and you can't control which threads they pop up in.

I also don't think most people intentionally go looking for such arguments. It's feels like it's the same posters following each other around in different threads arguing about the same thing :lol:

Others naturally get sucked in.
 
WeePat said:
For what it's worth, I agree with you.

These things just tend to happen though, when someone posts something another person considers wildly outrageous ,and you can't control which threads they pop up in.

I also don't think most people intentionally go looking for such arguments. It's feels like it's the same posters following each other around in different threads arguing about the same thing :lol:

Others naturally get sucked in.
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I'm probably in the minority but i've never been one for getting worked up when a thread went off topic temporarily, i use to mod a forum and never once made a "stay on topic" order.

When threads go off topic it's 9/10 due to a disagreement which makes for interesting reading (or often in my case involvement) one way or another, it always gets back to it's natural point eventually and usually quite quickly.
 
Dancfc said:
I'm probably in the minority but i've never been one for getting worked up when a thread went off topic temporarily, i use to mod a forum and never once made a "stay on topic" order.

When threads go off topic it's 9/10 due to a disagreement which makes for interesting reading (or often in my case involvement) one way or another, it always gets back to it's natural point eventually and usually quite quickly.
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Seeing a list of "I think Player X > Player Y" again and again is not interesting reading for a lot of people. If you came into this thread on this page without knowing the title, you would never know it was for discussing Pulisic.
 
Dancfc said:
I'm probably in the minority but i've never been one for getting worked up when a thread went off topic temporarily, i use to mod a forum and never once made a "stay on topic" order.

When threads go off topic it's 9/10 due to a disagreement which makes for interesting reading (or often in my case involvement) one way or another, it always gets back to it's natural point eventually and usually quite quickly.
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For what it's worth, going off topic for a page or two, is nothing more than a mild nuisance, if even that.

It's when it gets derailed for 4-5 pages or more like the Havertz thread, I can see why the mods have to step in. When several threads get derailed with the same old player comparison arguments, then it begins to get really boring.
 


Top top mentality. Also, glad it hasn't come back to bite him - word is he'll be out 4-5 weeks (only TalkSport saying this though):

May miss a couple matches to start next season but all things considered that's about as good an outcome as could be hoped for.

 
TheMagicFoolBus said:


Top top mentality. Also, glad it hasn't come back to bite him - word is he'll be out 4-5 weeks (only TalkSport saying this though):

May miss a couple matches to start next season but all things considered that's about as good an outcome as could be hoped for.

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I had hoped it was closer to 2-3 weeks.

5 weeks will take us all the way to the start of next season. He'll then need time to get back to full fitness. It's basically a duplicate of the start of last season. We likely won't see firing on all cylinders version of Pulisic until at least a month into the new season, if not longer.
 
WeePat said:
I had hoped it was closer to 2-3 weeks.

5 weeks will take us all the way to the start of next season. He'll then need time to get back to full fitness. It's basically a duplicate of the start of last season. We likely won't see firing on all cylinders version of Pulisic until at least a month into the new season, if not longer.
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Perhaps - I am always in favour of treating hamstrings very gingerly as that seems to be the muscle most easy to aggravate. Given the way he went down I felt 2-3 weeks was optimistic and that 2-3 months was more likely.
 
Dancfc said:
Does that also apply to Sancho/United?
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No, Sancho has got a free pass mate.
In all honesty I feel comparing players in a different league is a bit naff as they all adapt differently. He has the physicality of the league to adapt to and playing as a lone striker,. We will see but at the moment I feel Martial has more to his repertoire of skill.
Wener though will score shit loads
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Top top mentality. Also, glad it hasn't come back to bite him - word is he'll be out 4-5 weeks (only TalkSport saying this though):

May miss a couple matches to start next season but all things considered that's about as good an outcome as could be hoped for.
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American mindset. Honestly, he seems to be quietly confident in his abilities. He's not an outspoken yank, but you can see he has that bite to him. He came back after the long time out due to injury, then was on fire immediately like he had a point to prove. Lampard definitely lit something within him.
 
Terrific player, can't wait to watch him again.

Read this about Pulisic and the general animosity towards Americans in football, sorry, Sawccer. Is all American sports writing this appalling? 3000 words with nothing to say and has any other major sporting nation been this insecure about criticism?

https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/christian-pulisic-premier-league-soccer

"His birth provides a microcosm of an American identity that people tell themselves they want to resist, even if he projects none of those qualities himself. He’s the manifestation of British fears about chlorinated chicken or “lite” beer or health care that isn’t free at the point of use. He lets them tell themselves this is bigger than soccer — and maybe it is."
 
The fact that the author seems to think Pulisic is a superstar player, names him alongside Messi and Ronaldo at one point and thinks that he might herald American dominance, basically all because he's the first US player who can dribble the ball, is precisely the kind of attitude that prompts some of the behavior he's trying to point out in his article.
 
I love Pulisic, may become my favourite player to watch in the EPL if he continues his recent form. But what a weird and narcissistic article. Ironically, the attitude behind it leads to the behaviour he's criticizing.

Personally, the only issue I have with the "Americanization" of football is that in many cases American sports perception can't really be transferred to football but is done anyway. I see so many concepts that work perfectly for basketball (comparing players by scoring stats, judging their legacy based on titles alone, emphasizing their clutch plays/buzzer beaters etc.) that just can't be applied to football because the sport is fundamentally different in many core mechanics. Yet here we are, learning for the first time that footballer x is the equivalent of basketball player y, that being clutch is so important, etc. And yes, that sort of confirms the stereotype of the American self-centricity - it's nice that more and more people in the US become interested in football but you often get the impression that they struggle a bit with the fact that they're not perceived as the world's best at it.
 
Haddock said:
Terrific player, can't wait to watch him again.

Read this about Pulisic and the general animosity towards Americans in football, sorry, Sawccer. Is all American sports writing this appalling? 3000 words with nothing to say and has any other major sporting nation been this insecure about criticism?

https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/christian-pulisic-premier-league-soccer

"His birth provides a microcosm of an American identity that people tell themselves they want to resist, even if he projects none of those qualities himself. He’s the manifestation of British fears about chlorinated chicken or “lite” beer or health care that isn’t free at the point of use. He lets them tell themselves this is bigger than soccer — and maybe it is."
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What the actual shit is that nonsense? It reads like a crap version of Hunter S. Thompson.
 
After watching werner constantly blitz up the pitch on counter attacks the other night i absolutely cannot wait to see them both in the same team.
 
WeePat said:
I'd rather wait until Pulisic is in top form and Rashford isn’t to be perfectly honest. Suits my opinion much better.
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Thats kind of the point i was making!
Is Pulisic recovering from injury or anything?
 
cyberman said:
Thats kind of the point i was making!
Is Pulisic recovering from injury or anything?
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He has recovered, he's trying to play himself into form but he was out for a while so I wouldn't necessarily expect to him to
be firing on all cylinders immediately.
 
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