[Ekeke]

This is where the contradiction comes from
You say we need to give him a chance with the best CB but also admit we won't win the league with him.

Forget winning the league
I just don't think we will challenge with him.

And keep saying 'that shit'? Basically nothing ive said above is incorrect
He hasn't started any of the seasons under Jose
Jose has consistently tried to upgrade him
He's not a good passer of the ball
He is a good defender but not a good CB for a team that wants to challenge

The shit is the stuff about loving him or jumping to his defense. I've just provided rational logic why he is in the team and players like Bailly arent. You said earlier we might have been impatient/given up too quickly at times and I explained why when those players got their chances and didnt take them, we fell back onto the player we know we can rely on. That just makes sense. But it wouldnt have happened if Bailly & Lindelof had been doing great when they had their chance. They fluffed it.

So yeah its all about the performances. Smalling is the one who shines through while the others let us down at times.

I think we should sign a top CB and put him next to Smalling and if we don't look like we can challenge City with that defense, then you look for an improvement on Smalling. But until we try him next to a top CB I can't see why he wouldnt be in the team. If he didnt have to worry so much about other players being out of position all the time and making up for their mistakes, maybe he'd have more time to work on his passing

 

[iKeano]

The shit is the stuff about loving him or jumping to his defense. I've just provided rational logic why he is in the team and players like Bailly arent. You said earlier we might have been impatient/given up too quickly at times and I explained why when those players got their chances and didnt take them, we fell back onto the player we know we can rely on. That just makes sense. But it wouldnt have happened if Bailly & Lindelof had been doing great when they had their chance. They fluffed it.

So yeah its all about the performances. Smalling is the one who shines through while the others let us down at times.

I think we should sign a top CB and put him next to Smalling and if we don't look like we can challenge City with that defense, then you look for an improvement on Smalling. But until we try him next to a top CB I can't see why he wouldnt be in the team. If he didnt have to worry so much about other players being out of position all the time and making up for their mistakes, maybe he'd have more time to work on his passing

"More time to work on his passing..."

Jesus wept. He's a 29 year old man. A veteran of the game (God knows how!).
A 29year old defender isn't the sort of person you put someone next to to improve, he should be the one improving the next generation under his guidance, but there's no chance of that.
How anyone can defend his complete inability to pass the ball with purpose is beyond belief.
Gareth Southgate knew the score when he called him on it and didn't take him to the world cup.

 

[Ekeke]

"More time to work on his passing..."

Jesus wept. He's a 29 year old man. A veteran of the game (God knows how!).
A 29year old defender isn't the sort of person you put someone next to to improve, he should be the one improving the next generation under his guidance, but there's no chance of that.
How anyone can defend his complete inability to pass the ball with purpose is beyond belief.
Gareth Southgate knew the score when he called him on it and didn't take him to the world cup.

He doesnt have a complete inability to pass the ball. He's the least likely of our CBs to lose the ball with a pass

So thats completely daft, congrats

 

[Sylar]

The shit is the stuff about loving him or jumping to his defense. I've just provided rational logic why he is in the team and players like Bailly arent. You said earlier we might have been impatient/given up too quickly at times and I explained why when those players got their chances and didnt take them, we fell back onto the player we know we can rely on. That just makes sense. But it wouldnt have happened if Bailly & Lindelof had been doing great when they had their chance. They fluffed it.

So yeah its all about the performances. Smalling is the one who shines through while the others let us down at times.

I think we should sign a top CB and put him next to Smalling and if we don't look like we can challenge City with that defense, then you look for an improvement on Smalling. But until we try him next to a top CB I can't see why he wouldnt be in the team. If he didnt have to worry so much about other players being out of position all the time and making up for their mistakes, maybe he'd have more time to work on his passing

We obviously won't agree
I don't think he's good enough to be a starter based on nearly 10 years here
However you think he can improve his passing being next to a veteran despite the fact that he should be the veteran and leader by now

 

[Sylar]

He doesnt have a complete inability to pass the ball. He's the least likely of our CBs to lose the ball with a pass

So thats completely daft, congrats

See, this is what I mean about defending him.
Point being 'with purpose' which was key to what @iKeano was basing his argument on but completely missed.

It would be like me saying fellaini should be our starting midfielder as he's least likely to lose the ball too and can be competent in that position

 

[Ekeke]

See, this is what I mean about defending him.
Point being 'with purpose' which was key to what @iKeano was basing his argument on but completely missed.

It would be like me saying fellaini should be our starting midfielder as he's least likely to lose the ball too and can be competent in that position

His performances mean he deserves to start instead of Matic and yes his simple passing is one of the reasons for that

 

[Sylar]

His performances mean he deserves to start instead of Matic and yes his simple passing is one of the reasons for that

Adding caveats to make a point
Yep

 

[Rossa]

We obviously won't agree
I don't think he's good enough to be a starter based on nearly 10 years here
However you think he can improve his passing being next to a veteran despite the fact that he should be the veteran and leader by now

Being a veteran doesn't automatically make you a leader. That just shows you know little about leadership. Lead by example, sure, but not all people are leaders. You can be the best in the world at what you do without being a leader.

 

[MikeKing]

Being a veteran doesn't automatically make you a leader. That just shows you know little about leadership. Lead by example, sure, but not all people are leaders. You can be the best in the world at what you do without being a leader.

When you do talk about leading by example, Smalling is probably the best in our squad along with DDG and Herrera who in their respective ways clearly follows instructions and encourage others to do their jobs as well.

To the point you're making, I guess that comes from the beforefor times when usually the defenders were the captains etc, and that because of that, a CB isn't worth his salt if he isn't a powerful leader. Ironically, Smalling screams the most in our team, as well as doing a fair bit of pointing. (Not that it really need to mean anything though)

It is as impossible to prove Smalling can't organise a defence as it is to prove he can. Weird thing is people just assume he doesn't while disregarding his importance and influence when playing next to a new partner everyday. Smalling's lack of passing skills is highly overstated, and while he puts safety first, it doesn't mean he can't improve in a better coached team with better players around him, like a few in the rest of our squad.

I'm sure at one point he was like a scapegoat of both sides of the pro and against Mourinho agendas, a different angle but they all wrongly agreed he was terrible, only to get one off on each other. I'll bet some of that has still stuck with some posters

 

[Sylar]

Being a veteran doesn't automatically make you a leader. That just shows you know little about leadership. Lead by example, sure, but not all people are leaders. You can be the best in the world at what you do without being a leader.

Yeah erm...

Smalling went on to describe himself as “a leader”

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...jose-mourinho-wrong-bravery-manchester-united


Guess the following know so little about leadership too for thinking the same thing eh?

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/fo...ader-of-the-team-at-manchester-united-1.36909

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...manchester-united-chris-smalling-can-10149247

http://www.squawka.com/en/news/mart...-a-dominant-leader/631107#rwWPTUHxd7pX02B5.97

Its not a stretch to think that he should have been a leader and people expected that of him. Smalling sees himself as a leader too (not that I even said being a veteran makes you a leader)
But hey, what do I really know eh?

 

[Rossa]

Yeah erm...


https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...jose-mourinho-wrong-bravery-manchester-united


Guess the following know so little about leadership too for thinking the same thing eh?

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/fo...ader-of-the-team-at-manchester-united-1.36909

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...manchester-united-chris-smalling-can-10149247

http://www.squawka.com/en/news/mart...-a-dominant-leader/631107#rwWPTUHxd7pX02B5.97

Its not a stretch to think that he should have been a leader and people expected that of him. Smalling sees himself as a leader too (not that I even said being a veteran makes you a leader)
But hey, what do I really know eh?

You literally write he is a veteran and should be a leader by now. He may think he's a leader, but that doesn't make him one. If everyone thinks he's a leader, and his teammates think he's a good leader, then we don't need a leader, do we?

 

[Sylar]

You literally write he is a veteran and should be a leader by now. He may think he's a leader, but that doesn't make him one. If everyone thinks he's a leader, and his teammates think he's a good leader, then we don't need a leader, do we?

I dont get what youre arguing. I said he should be a leader, in terms of everybody thought he would be one by now.

Im not saying everybody thinks hes a leader. Im saying everybody thought he would be a leader for us esp post Fergie (post Rio/Vida), and it wasnt a stretch to think that given who he learnt from. But its clear he didnt become one for us (whether he tried or not, he just didnt become one otherwise our defence wouldnt be a shambles and we wouldnt be trying to upgrade on him).

 

[MikeKing]

I dont get what youre arguing. I said he should be a leader, in terms of everybody thought he would be one by now.

Im not saying everybody thinks hes a leader. Im saying everybody thought he would be a leader for us esp post Fergie (post Rio/Vida), and it wasnt a stretch to think that given who he learnt from. But its clear he didnt become one for us (whether he tried or not, he just didnt become one otherwise our defence wouldnt be a shambles and we wouldnt be trying to upgrade on him).

We have had a lot of expectations not come true after SAF left. It's not just about if Smalling became a leader or not is it? While we aren't a top performing team, the last thing we should do is lay the blame for that on our best and most consistent performers.

 

[iKeano]

@Sylar is making valid points, but it won't get through to Smalling FC!

Has Utd's expectations fallen so low that simply being the least likely to give the ball away, means you're the best CB?! Listen to yourselves.
Everyone is a leader so we don't need a leader?!! Sure why don't we do away with capatincy. José is a terrible manager, players should be able to manage themselves... do we even need a manager (In this case I'd prefer no manager than José but that's another topic for another board!)

Smalling's performances over the almost 10 years at Utd have been underwhelming for the most part. He's visibly nervous on the ball, plays the ball squarely (and verrrry slowly) to the back foot of the recipient every time (when he's not hoofing it into the stands in a blind panic).
Yes he's scored some important goals and made some important tackles, headers and interceptions over the years, but even a broke clock is right twice a day.

Also, I can't hold it in any longer. His hair. There. I said it.
State of his hair.

 

[11101]

Being a veteran doesn't automatically make you a leader. That just shows you know little about leadership. Lead by example, sure, but not all people are leaders. You can be the best in the world at what you do without being a leader.

This is football, not an Army battalion. As an experienced centre back you're expected to command the full backs next to you and the midfielders in front of you, and to some extent your other centre back. You don't need to be the club Captain but you can't be a top defender without being able to do that, and it's quite clear there is nobody in our defence who can. Bailly and Lindelof can still be excused as they are young but Smalling should have progressed by now. He played with Rio, Vidic, Neville and Evra, and under SAF. You couldn't ask for a better group to learn from but he is still sitting back and reacting to the play rather than anticipating and dictating it.

 

[Jericho]

@Sylar is making valid points, but it won't get through to Smalling FC!

Has Utd's expectations fallen so low that simply being the least likely to give the ball away, means you're the best CB?! Listen to yourselves.
Everyone is a leader so we don't need a leader?!! Sure why don't we do away with capatincy. José is a terrible manager, players should be able to manage themselves... do we even need a manager (In this case I'd prefer no manager than José but that's another topic for another board!)

Smalling's performances over the almost 10 years at Utd have been underwhelming for the most part. He's visibly nervous on the ball, plays the ball squarely (and verrrry slowly) to the back foot of the recipient every time (when he's not hoofing it into the stands in a blind panic).
Yes he's scored some important goals and made some important tackles, headers and interceptions over the years, but even a broke clock is right twice a day.

Also, I can't hold it in any longer. His hair. There. I said it.
State of his hair.

This is a good point. He seems incapable of playing the ball into someones path.

I'd also add that he often plays people into trouble. His passes are sometimes so telegraphed, and he takes so long to deliver them, that by the time the pass arrives to the player (usually the fullback), the opposition has already began to move in on that player and his only options are to clear or back pass to the keeper.

 

[Mcking]

This is a good point. He seems incapable of playing the ball into someones path.

I'd also add that he often plays people into trouble. His passes are sometimes so telegraphed, and he takes so long to deliver them, that by the time the pass arrives to the player (usually the fullback), the opposition has already began to move in on that player and his only options are to clear or back pass to the keeper.

This is not the Nemanja Matic thread.

 

[simplyared]

When he plays with Lindelöf, because he has to cover for him, he is quite dominating and becomes the backbone of our defence. When playing with Bailly, because Bailly puts himself about a lot more and is mountains better than Lindelöf, Smalling takes more of a back seat. That said he's still far too limited to be our first choice CB in the modern game. These days you have to have more than just defensive qualities. As in vDyke, Stones, Laporte, Maguire.

 

[Sylar]

We have had a lot of expectations not come true after SAF left. It's not just about if Smalling became a leader or not is it? While we aren't a top performing team, the last thing we should do is lay the blame for that on our best and most consistent performers.

Yeah but this is the Smalling thread. Who is blaming him and saying replace Smalling and we would be champions? We have many issues however CBs are a part that could and should be dealt with.

What is happening is an assessment of Smalling on a game by game basis as well as a look at him through the years to see if and how hes improved (and how hes been used or not used).

Again, I dont get why people are getting offended or so defensive. I have not once even said Smalling is not good enough for United (as a squad player). I like him as hes scored some big goals for us.
However I have said I dont think hes good enough to be a starter if we want to challenge for top honours. He might be our most consistent player, but if we look at the bigger picture, is that really good enough?

 

[A-man]

When he plays with Lindelöf, because he has to cover for him, he is quite dominating and becomes the backbone of our defence. When playing with Bailly, because Bailly puts himself about a lot more and is mountains better than Lindelöf, Smalling takes more of a back seat. That said he's still far too limited to be our first choice CB in the modern game. These days you have to have more than just defensive qualities. As in vDyke, Stones, Laporte, Maguire.

I have the feeling that it is much easier to form a CB pair with Lindelof than with Bailly, simply because you never know what Bailly will do. With a forward that can be an advantage sometimes, but for a CB it is good for the partner to know what to expect. Smalling also has that ability; he doesnt do random things on the pitch and his fellow CB knows where he is and will be. The individual CB is not as important as the complete pair is.

 

[RedSky]

Yeah but this is the Smalling thread. Who is blaming him and saying replace Smalling and we would be champions? We have many issues however CBs are a part that could and should be dealt with.

What is happening is an assessment of Smalling on a game by game basis as well as a look at him through the years to see if and how hes improved (and how hes been used or not used).

Again, I dont get why people are getting offended or so defensive. I have not once even said Smalling is not good enough for United (as a squad player). I like him as hes scored some big goals for us.
However I have said I dont think hes good enough to be a starter if we want to challenge for top honours. He might be our most consistent player, but if we look at the bigger picture, is that really good enough?

In an ideal world we'd replace Smalling with two better better CBs and push him to a bench/squad option. But to do that we'd need to sell some CBs and then hope that Jose/Scouts bring in the right CBs to solve the problem. As you said it yourself, Smalling is right now our most consistent CB and that ultimately means that if we do only sign one CB (for argument sake lets say we fork out the top dollar and bring in Koulibaly) then we'd still need an able CB to play alongside him and ultimately Smalling will end up being that player. Much to the annoyance of some Caftards naturally.

Personally, i'd start by selling Rojo and Jones and bringing in a new CB and promoting Tuanzebe. Then we could make a decision on Bailly/Lindelof the following Summer.

 

[Sylar]

In an ideal world we'd replace Smalling with two better better CBs and push him to a bench/squad option. But to do that we'd need to sell some CBs and then hope that Jose/Scouts bring in the right CBs to solve the problem. As you said it yourself, Smalling is right now our most consistent CB and that ultimately means that if we do only sign one CB (for argument sake lets say we fork out the top dollar and bring in Koulibaly) then we'd still need an able CB to play alongside him and ultimately Smalling will end up being that player. Much to the annoyance of some Caftards naturally.

Personally, i'd start by selling Rojo and Jones and bringing in a new CB and promoting Tuanzebe. Then we could make a decision on Bailly/Lindelof the following Summer.

Which is fine if that CB is LCB. If we sign yet another RCB we will have to play the new signing on the left to accommodate Smalling or Smalling will go on the left to benefit the new signing, and we all know Smalling is not good on that side.
Ive said in other threads, Rojo is the best on that side (and by best I mean most capable from what we have).

 

[RedSky]

Which is fine if that CB is LCB. If we sign yet another RCB we will have to play the new signing on the left to accommodate Smalling or Smalling will go on the left to benefit the new signing, and we all know Smalling is not good on that side.
Ive said in other threads, Rojo is the best on that side (and by best I mean most capable from what we have).

Rojo is as injury fecked as Jones though, granted he's had more serious injuries than Jones but it's still laughable how much football he's missed and is another player in the Jones category of not reliable. I'd cut my losses on him and get someone else in. We carry way to many passengers as is.

 

[Sylar]

Rojo is as injury fecked as Jones though, granted he's had more serious injuries than Jones but it's still laughable how much football he's missed and is another player in the Jones category of not reliable. I'd cut my losses on him and get someone else in. We carry way to many passengers as is.

Im not disagreeing Ive always said, weve got an issue with balance. I reckon we should have just played Tuanzebe there and let him grow with our players. (ok yeah, another young one but at least he would be playing).

 

[RedSky]

Im not disagreeing Ive always said, weve got an issue with balance. I reckon we should have just played Tuanzebe there and let him grow with our players. (ok yeah, another young one but at least he would be playing).

With LvG at the helm that would have happened. It's a shame in some ways but at least it's allowed him to get experience at Villa away from the spot light.

I lost patience with the majority of our defense early last season when they all kept getting injured and I think if we're talking about squad balance, it's been horrific (that's a suitable description) for years. It's been a pet moan project of mine for about 7 years now.

 

[Sylar]

With LvG at the helm that would have happened. It's a shame in some ways but at least it's allowed him to get experience at Villa away from the spot light.

I lost patience with the majority of our defense early last season when they all kept getting injured and I think if we're talking about squad balance, it's been horrific (that's a suitable description) for years. It's been a pet moan project of mine for about 7 years now.

Dont worry, we will buy another right footed player for the left side again.

 

[Adnan]

This was comedy gold..

 

[RussellWilson]

As evidenced yesterday, not sure how any posters can ever moan about Smalling with the other set of absolute clowns we have as defenders. He is literally the last one of that lot we should be looking to replace. Posters complaining about his passing, when the others are no better at building play and can't do basic defending.

 

[Sylar]

As evidenced yesterday, not sure how any posters can ever moan about Smalling with the other set of absolute clowns we have as defenders. He is literally the last one of that lot we should be looking to replace. Posters complaining about his passing, when the others are no better at building play and can't do basic defending.

So because I have a broken wrist, I cant complain about a sprained ankle?

But regarding the bolded, for squad I agree.
For starting lineup however...

 

[Hammondo]

People mock him and complain about him but we miss him instantly when hes not playing.

 

[Ekeke]

This is a good point. He seems incapable of playing the ball into someones path.

I'd also add that he often plays people into trouble. His passes are sometimes so telegraphed, and he takes so long to deliver them, that by the time the pass arrives to the player (usually the fullback), the opposition has already began to move in on that player and his only options are to clear or back pass to the keeper.

He did exactly that at the weekend, playing some good passes accelerating play in our attacks. He got 1 wrong and ballooned it into the stands and people are transfixed with a gif of that and make no mention of the several other times he made good passes, better than the slower ones he normally does out to the fullback. Its one of the reasons Dalot so well against Fulham was that Smalling was playing good passes to encourage him to get forward quickly

 

[Leftback99]

Let's hope he's fit for Sunday. The rest of our CBs are shambolic.

 

[MikeKing]

He did exactly that at the weekend, playing some good passes accelerating play in our attacks. He got 1 wrong and ballooned it into the stands and people are transfixed with a gif of that and make no mention of the several other times he made good passes, better than the slower ones he normally does out to the fullback. Its one of the reasons Dalot so well against Fulham was that Smalling was playing good passes to encourage him to get forward quickly

Crickets for this... as expected.

Anyone know if he is ready for the game? I know we'll get at least a point if he plays. If he doesn't I won't have high fecking hopes where thats concerned

 

[Jericho]

Crickets for this... as expected.

Anyone know if he is ready for the game? I know we'll get at least a point if he plays. If he doesn't I won't have high fecking hopes where thats concerned

Probably because everyone played better in that game (vs Fulham), and it isn't an accurate representation of how the players have been playing overall this season.

 

[MikeKing]

Probably because everyone played better in that game (vs Fulham), and it isn't an accurate representation of how the players have been playing overall this season.

Do you mean like how some of our worst performers are getting a free ride because of Mourinho? Surely Smalling passing better in a better setup is a good thing and not a negative to be used against him

 

[Jericho]

Do you mean like how some of our worst performers are getting a free ride because of Mourinho? Surely Smalling passing better in a better setup is a good thing and not a negative to be used against him

Who's using it against him? Also, why the "lol" emogie?

 

[Jericho]

Who's using it against him? Also, why the "lol" emogie?

 

[MikeKing]

Who's using it against him? Also, why the "lol" emogie?

Well I thought you would understand since you commented on the post that said "crickets for this". It sort of means that you will criticise or rationalise criticism of him while silently ignore any point that proves you in any way wrong. Sort of in the way you did when you just excused him of passing better because the whole team played well. Like that will some how take away from a mostly unrecognised improvement of performance in an area he is heavily criticised in. If Pogba made several good decisions in a game and generally gave a shit in a good match, you would think people would take that as a positive wouldn't you? Even if Smalling's passing in that game wasn't representative of his overall level, it was still another game he passed very well in. Which makes like 4 games this season, which is 4 games more than he gets credit for by some here. Instead I expect a few are blaming him for the rest of our team not functioning because of his passing. Which the game against Fulham subsequently disproves.

 

[Ekeke]

Probably because everyone played better in that game (vs Fulham), and it isn't an accurate representation of how the players have been playing overall this season.

Nobody said he had been playing good passes out to the fullbacks all season. He did a decent job of it in this one game as I said.

 

[Dec9003]

Signed a new contract.