[Cassidy]

It's not normal for a team at the top of the league. Ideally you want to be in the top left of the graph, it's no surprise that those on the right are in the bottom half. Only City pre-Kompany were actually there though, which is unsurprising given the Premier League so far this season has been defensively a relative shambles.

And what if you are just preventing teams from even taking shots, that why I find the chart a bit odd. It assumes that many shots that do not lead to goals shows defensive organisation and competence, when actually it could mean something completely different like having an incredible keeper or teams just taking pot shots from outside the box often.

If we have a game where the keeper has nothing to do, this chart penalises such a team. Its a bit silly IMO

 

[JPRouve]

And what if you are just preventing teams from even taking shots, that why I find the chart a bit odd. It assumes that many shots that do not lead to goals shows defensive organisation and competence, when actually it could mean something completely different like having an incredible keeper or teams just taking pot shots from outside the box often.

Exactly, when you concede 17 shots per games you are not competent and if your opponents can't score they are themselves incompetent.

 

[Cassidy]

We had marginally more possession, but the Everton game was a notable shift in our tactics. We switched to having Jones at the back and playing in a more conservative shape, in recognition to the fact that our "keep-ball" tactics failed against Arsenal and have been ineffective against Everton and other teams who move the ball forward quickly before.

Keep ball didn't fail vs Arsenal since vs Arsenal we didn't keep the ball. We were just a shower of shite in that game with no organisation defensively or in the midfield, which actually was a bit of a red hearing when you look at our season.
Usually Shaw, Darmian, Smalling and Blind make a very high number of interceptions and tackles in games, especially in our first few. It wasn't just the keeping of posession which won us games, which is why in those games most of our MOTM went to defenders.

 

[Dion]

Keep ball didn't fail vs Arsenal since vs Arsenal we didn't keep the ball. We were just a shower of shite in that game with no organisation defensively or in the midfield, which actually was a bit of a red hearing when you look at our season.
Usually Shaw, Darmian, Smalling and Blind make a very high number of interceptions and tackles in games, especially in our first few. It wasn't just the keeping of posession which won us games, which is why in those games most of our MOTM went to defenders.

That's kind of the point...

 

[Cassidy]

That's kind of the point...

I'm aware of that, my point was that 1. The arsenal game was a red hearing. 2 There were other things in our game wrong like the lack of coordination in pressing etc. Again vs Arsenal I believe we won the posession.

The point really is that how can a team be competent defensively be shown by conceeding more shots and the keeper having to work more often. Surely it should be the other way round.

If you want a chart to prove your theory regarding posession, then you should be looking at minutes without the ball, vs chances conceeded.

EDIT: We may find with the correct chart your point is proved right (I doubt it) but that chart you posted does nothing to support your arguement IMO

 

[Dion]

If we have a game where the keeper has nothing to do, this chart penalises such a team. Its a bit silly IMO

No, it punishes teams whose keepers don't keep out shots. When ours is De Gea you see the problem is elsewhere as he's hardly one to throw them into the net.

Exactly, when you concede 17 shots per games you are not competent and if your opponents can't score they are themselves incompetent.

Actually if you're conceding 17 shots per game and conceding the same number of goals as a team that only concedes 9, it shows that you're better at restricting the areas that opposition teams can play in and limiting their ability to move the ball into dangerous areas. We fail to do when our primary tactic of keeping the ball breaks down because we have good individual defenders but a relatively poor unit.

 

[Cassidy]

No, it punishes teams whose keepers don't keep out shots. When ours is De Gea you see the problem is elsewhere as he's hardly one to throw them into the net.


Actually if you're conceding 17 shots per game and conceding the same number of goals as a team that only concedes 9, it shows that you're better at restricting the areas that opposition teams can play in and limiting their ability to move the ball into dangerous areas. We fail to do when our primary tactic of keeping the ball breaks down because we have good individual defenders but a relatively poor unit.

Or it could show that the other teams were just incompetent in finishing chances... Basically you are making far too many assumptions. There is a chart that could prove your point though, that one you posted just isn't the correct one

 

[Dion]

I'm aware of that, my point was that 1. The arsenal game was a red hearing. 2 There were other things in our game wrong like the lack of coordination in pressing etc. Again vs Arsenal I believe we won the posession.

The point really is that how can a team be competent defensively be shown by conceeding more shots and the keeper having to work more often. Surely it should be the other way round.

If you want a chart to prove your theory regarding posession, then you should be looking at minutes without the ball, vs chances conceeded.

EDIT: We may find with the correct chart your point is proved right (I doubt it) but that chart you posted does nothing to support your arguement IMO

We won possession because Arsenal went 3-0 up and then played on the counter. And as I said, the Arsenal game isn't a great example because we came up against much better players. Better examples are the games I listed.

It's not a graph of shots on target, it's a graph of shots. Keepers who face 18 shots don't have to be particularly busy.

Or it could show that the other teams were just incompetent in finishing chances... Basically you are making far too many assumptions. There is a chart that could prove your point though, that one you posted just isn't the correct one

Except that doesn't actually make a difference because you're all playing the same teams over the course of a season and the only constant in those games is yourself.

 

[Cassidy]

We won possession because Arsenal went 3-0 up and then played on the counter. And as I said, the Arsenal game isn't a great example because we came up against much better players. Better examples are the games I listed.

It's not a graph of shots on target, it's a graph of shots. Keepers who face 18 shots don't have to be particularly busy.

I know that, but it doesn't make any distinction, which means it making assupmtions and jumping to conclusions. Which means it doesn't actually show what you are saying it shows, since there could be another plausable explanation.

 

[JPRouve]

Except that doesn't actually make a difference because you're all playing the same teams over the course of a season and the only constant in those games is yourself.

But we haven't played the same teams yet, at the exception of Tottenham.

 

[Cassidy]

But we haven't played the same teams yet, at the exception of Tottenham.

And we know how that went down.... 0 conceeded vs ...

 

[Dion]

But we haven't played the same teams yet, at the exception of Tottenham.

We've played 9 essentially random teams from a pool of 19 selected teams, that trail of argument is a stretch.

 

[JPRouve]

We've played 9 essentially random teams from a pool of 19 selected teams, that trail of argument is a stretch.

We played five teams from the top 10, they played 3 and we conceded less goals. It's not random random, the teams aren't equal. This chart will be interesting at the end of the season, he will still be useless by himself but still interesting.

 

[villain]

It shows that we're in the bottom half of teams when it comes to conceding goals when we allow teams to get a shot off, consider that we have by far the best goalkeeper in the league as well and you see that when our defence breaks down it's usually fatal. It's good management that we use our ability to retain the ball to limit teams opportunities to actually attack us however, which is why our defensive record overall is good but with notable blips.

Consider the majority of the goals we've conceded.

A 10 minute blitz by Swansea, a 30minute domination by Arsenal, a wonder goal by Benteke in a game which we otherwise dominated, Pelle's first goal which came off a save by DDG that happened to land in front of him.

Arsenal game aside - the goals we've conceded were hardly because of a weak defence.
We switched off against Swansea & Liverpool in matches we otherwise dominated.
And Pelle's goal could have went anywhere after it came off DDG.

I'd argue that the Arsenal game skews your point, because without those three goals we haven't been the inferior team in any game, or lucky to win. Our defence has been great, not because of last ditch tackles or amazing saves - but because the opposition rarely gets a clear goal scoring opportunity.
DDG has had hardly anything to do this season in comparison to last, and I think he could've done better on a few of the goals we've conceded.

 

[Dion]

Consider the majority of the goals we've conceded.

A 10 minute blitz by Swansea, a 30minute domination by Arsenal, a wonder goal by Benteke in a game which we otherwise dominated, Pelle's first goal which came off a save by DDG that happened to land in front of him.

Arsenal game aside - the goals we've conceded were hardly because of a weak defence.
We switched off against Swansea & Liverpool in matches we otherwise dominated.
And Pelle's goal could have went anywhere after it came off DDG.

I'd argue that the Arsenal game skews your point, because without those three goals we haven't been the inferior team in any game, or lucky to win. Our defence has been great, not because of last ditch tackles or amazing saves - but because the opposition rarely gets a clear goal scoring opportunity.
DDG has had hardly anything to do this season in comparison to last, and I think he could've done better on a few of the goals we've conceded.

And for every goal a team concedes there are 3 others where they don't for similar reasons. De Gea doesn't have much to do and yet when he does it's far more dangerous.

 

[Kag]

Our defensive structure is excellent, from front to back, ingrained from the work carried on the training field. I think that's been fairly obvious since the turn of the year.

Leadership at the heart of defence is a peculiar thing to judge from a terrace, moreso from the comfort of an armchair.

From an organisational front we're in the best defensive shape we've been in since we won the double in '08.

 

[CG1010]

@Dion

While your arguments are contrarian and interesting, the data still doesn't support them. Your point basically comes down to saying that United are too fragile defensively and concede too many goals, given the little amount of ball the opposition sees (and therefore our defensive performance is down to possession, which in itself isn't a bad thing though). But here is a comparison of the top three teams in the league:

1. Manchester City --- Average Possession: 56.7% --- Goals conceded: 8.
2. Arsenal --- Average Possession: 57.3% --- Goals conceded: 7.
3. Manchester United --- Average Possession: 57.0% --- Goals conceded: 8.

They are absolutely similar in terms of possession and goals conceded. So your criticism of United should be valid even for Arsenal. The only team you could really look, statistically, at is Tottenham who have conceded 8 goals despite only having average possession of 52.7%.

 

[Dion]

@Dion

While your arguments are contrarian and interesting, the data still doesn't support them. Your point basically comes down to saying that United are too fragile defensively and concede too many goals, given the little amount of ball the opposition sees (and therefore our defensive performance is down to possession, which in itself isn't a bad thing though). But here is a comparison of the top three teams in the league:

1. Manchester City --- Average Possession: 56.7% --- Goals conceded: 8.
2. Arsenal --- Average Possession: 57.3% --- Goals conceded: 7.
3. Manchester United --- Average Possession: 57.0% --- Goals conceded: 8.

They are absolutely similar in terms of possession and goals conceded. So your criticism of United should be valid even for Arsenal. The only team you could really look, statistically, at is Tottenham who have conceded 8 goals despite only having average possession of 52.7%.

I've already said I consider Arsenal and City without Kompany poor this year. Those stats simply reinforce the principle. In fact the defensive standard all round has been pretty average, City were looking exceptional until Kompany was out and then it all went to shit

 

[ivaldo]

There are far too many variables for that graph to used as any kind of evidence.

 

[Adam-Utd]

This just proves how some stats in football just do not work. It isn't that clear cut.

 

[Devil may care]

Not his best tonight, solid enough on his less favoured side of the CB partnership but his passing wasn't as good as it's been recently.

 

[Giggsy92]

Why has he been shifted to LCB now Jones is back? Not a huge thing but I think he's always looked more comfortable on the other side.

 

[DWelbz19]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/oct/22/chris-smalling-manchester-united-?CMP=share_btn_tw

Do it now, we're all ready.

 

[Skills]

Would love to see him as our captain. Just feels right

 

[ZDwyr]

http://www.espnfc.com/blog/tactics-...is-smalling-is-excelling-at-manchester-united

Another article on Smalling. Not sure I agree with the praise over the Arsenal match, definitely don't think that has been his best performance this season.

I'm a little disappointed Aguero isn't playing this weekend. I wanted Smalling to convincingly control him just to further re-assert his case as the best CB in the league.

 

[Loublaze]

LVG
"He also has the talent to speak. That makes him easy to coach. Because of that I made him a leader of the team.

"He has made steps and also in a tactical way. When you give instruction in terms of organisation you need someone to understand that."

 

[Trizy]

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Great video.

We'd be seriously buggered without him.

 

[Devil may care]

Still playing well but I think his passing has slipped a bit since having to play on the left side of the partnership.

 

[Skills]

Playing like a cpt should be this season.

 

[Bwuk]

Wasn't really tested today, was unlucky with the volley not too score.

 

[HabeasC]

Not sure why he has shifted to LCB. Pretty sure Jones always used to play on the left.

 

[Acole9]

I prefer him on the right and Jones on the left but still a good performance from him.

 

[thepolice123]

Not sure why he has shifted to LCB. Pretty sure Jones always used to play on the left.

Pretty sure because LVG trusts Jones on the ball more than Smalling. The heatmaps showed that he played more towards the rightback position when Valencia pushes up, so he actually saw a lot of the ball.

Smalling is the better defender currently, it is more important that he defend the central areas.

 

[Eric'sCollar]

Hopefully rested for this game.

 

[Devil may care]

Couple f sloppy passes early on but other than that mopped everything up, oddly seemed to be out defending the fullback areas quite often.

 

[Get In Scholesy]

We're going to run him into the ground aren't we?

 

[Amethyst]

It's really annoying that we had no choice but to play him for 120 minutes in a game where we didn't even go through.

 

[Parma Dewol]

Another vote for Smalling as captain. What a player.

Have to be honest and say that I didn't believe he would come good, I'd personally written him off after has idiotic sending off against City last season, but I'm glad to have been proven wrong. The man's already becoming a legend and he's bossing our defence.

Just hope LVG stops shuffling him around from left centre back one day to right centre back the next. Keep him in one position and find him a consistent partner!

 

[Rozay]

Beat the crap out of Kike all night.