Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion

Pow said:
Depends where they see havertz position. His best game in the final came off the right.
So no more wingers.
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Havertz didn't play right. He played as a false 9 respectively a right sided attacking midfielder. In the 3-4-2-1 you have wing backs to provide width. Winger is one of the few positions he can't play. Anyway, I'm always amazed by how quickly players are written off in here. Werner isn't even with you for a full year and you already won the CL and made top 4. Werner contributed to that with 27 scorers in 3800 minutes. Not a bad return for his first season. Considering that the previous season he scored a goal every 105 minutes, leading to 47 goal participations in 3600 mintues, one might think it would make sense to give a 60M signing a bit more time before wanting to replace him.

Werner and Havertz alone are easily good for 40 league goals once they've settled in. And Sancho could hit Neymar numbers under a coach like Tuchel. For me it would be an absolute no brainer to bring him in as long as you can afford him. That would be a frightening attack and I can't understand how somebody would prefer Lukaku over it. Especially since he's 7 years older.
 
Zehner said:
Havertz didn't play right. He played as a false 9 respectively a right sided attacking midfielder. In the 3-4-2-1 you have wing backs to provide width. Winger is one of the few positions he can't play. Anyway, I'm always amazed by how quickly players are written off in here. Werner isn't even with you for a full year and you already won the CL and made top 4. Werner contributed to that with 27 scorers in 3800 minutes. Not a bad return for his first season. Considering that the previous season he scored a goal every 105 minutes, leading to 47 goal participations in 3600 mintues, one might think it would make sense to give a 60M signing a bit more time before wanting to replace him.

Werner and Havertz alone are easily good for 40 league goals once they've settled in. And Sancho could hit Neymar numbers under a coach like Tuchel. For me it would be an absolute no brainer to bring him in as long as you can afford him. That would be a frightening attack and I can't understand how somebody would prefer Lukaku over it. Especially since he's 7 years older.
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I'm not writing either of them off. This isn't an either or. All 3 can play.
A werner/mount new striker/werner havertz/pulisic is fine for a squad like ours
 
Pow said:
I'm not writing either of them off. This isn't an either or. All 3 can play.
A werner/mount new striker/werner havertz/pulisic is fine for a squad like ours
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You're depicting this way too easy, IMO. In your current setup, Werner starts from the striker position and makes many runs on the wings. Havertz loves that, he already played with a similar striker in Volland for us, because it leaves spaces to attack for him. And Werner is also pretty hard to defend in one on ones due to his explosiveness so the opponent has to decide between two unfavorable outcomes. Since Werner does this with a ferocity and frequency like nobody else, this really destabilizes defenses. Additionally, Havertz contributes much to the build up. He's excellent under pressure and also fairly good with his back to the goal.

Bring in Lukaku as a striker and you have the problem that he'll occupy the striker spaces. He won't make runs on the wings, he'll be more focused on traditional striker areas. So less space for Havertz to attack. You won't see him making a run like Werner before Havertz' goal against City. And the runs he makes won't be made with the same ferocity and frequency as Werner. Moreover, even if he did he's much less of a risk in one on ones. Also, Lukaku improved massively this season with his back to the goal. Yet this is also a thing that Havertz brings into the team. Theoretically you could also play Werner as a striker and let Lukaku attack the spaces he leaves open but then Lukaku would need to participate in the build up again and he really isn't anything special under pressure. You won't see these subtle touches and one twos you get from Havertz.

But bring in someone like Sancho and it gets really interesting. That's a player who'll harmonize pretty well with Havertz and Werner. He loves movement around him, he loves to link up with others and interchanging positions. Those three together could produce real magic up front. And you'd have that part sorted for the next 10 years since both players are still so young.
 
Zehner said:
You're depicting this way too easy, IMO. In your current setup, Werner starts from the striker position and makes many runs on the wings. Havertz loves that, he already played with a similar striker in Volland for us, because it leaves spaces to attack for him. And Werner is also pretty hard to defend in one on ones due to his explosiveness so the opponent has to decide between two unfavorable outcomes. Since Werner does this with a ferocity and frequency like nobody else, this really destabilizes defenses. Additionally, Havertz contributes much to the build up. He's excellent under pressure and also fairly good with his back to the goal.

Bring in Lukaku as a striker and you have the problem that he'll occupy the striker spaces. He won't make runs on the wings, he'll be more focused on traditional striker areas. So less space for Havertz to attack. You won't see him making a run like Werner before Havertz' goal against City. And the runs he makes won't be made with the same ferocity and frequency as Werner. Moreover, even if he did he's much less of a risk in one on ones. Also, Lukaku improved massively this season with his back to the goal. Yet this is also a thing that Havertz brings into the team. Theoretically you could also play Werner as a striker and let Lukaku attack the spaces he leaves open but then Lukaku would need to participate in the build up again and he really isn't anything special under pressure. You won't see these subtle touches and one twos you get from Havertz.

But bring in someone like Sancho and it gets really interesting. That's a player who'll harmonize pretty well with Havertz and Werner. He loves movement around him, he loves to link up with others and interchanging positions. Those three together could produce real magic up front. And you'd have that part sorted for the next 10 years since both players are still so young.
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Xavi recently quoted the chelsea didn't have any stand out stars but they outplayed every opponents and won the champions league deservedly.

They outperformed every metric than their opponents from group stage to final. They will be lot tougher to play against next season.

All I want is Tuchel choice of signings rather than board preferred ones. Chelsea stumbled upon a good tactician and he very much knew which area need to be strengthened.

I am looking forward with lot of hope that great season ahead.
 
Rajiztar said:
Xavi recently quoted the chelsea didn't have any stand out stars but they outplayed every opponents and won the champions league deservedly.

They outperformed every metric than their opponents from group stage to final. They will be lot tougher to play against next season.

All I want is Tuchel choice of signings rather than board preferred ones. Chelsea stumbled upon a good tactician and he very much knew which area need to be strengthened.

I am looking forward with lot of hope that great season ahead.
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Yes, I think that this is pretty accurate. You played great stuff after Tuchel arrived, even though sometimes the goals didn't want to happen. The xG stats back that up.

In my opinion you should just build on that. You look rock solid in defense and create chances in every game you play. That's not a given. As good as City was, they never looked as secure in defense and not even that much better in terms of chance creation. I also believe that sometimes an outstanding individual performance over a season comes at the cost of collective quality. Somebody in here just posted that he's got reservations about Haaland because Dortmund didn't step up a level after he was bought, even though his stats are phenomenal. And that's true. Haaland also looked very human while Sancho was injured.

The teams that tend to do well consistently are those that create bucket loads of chances, not those that convert the few they create. And that's just logical in regards to probability theory.
 
Dancfc said:
Yep my big worry is we lose the fluidity we've slowly been building up and become a worse team for it. For example Bayern improved ten fold when they dropped Mario Gomez despite him offering one goal a game. Lukaku especially would put us back to square one on that score, even with Haaland I can't help but worry about the fact BVB are a worse overall team with him despite his unreal personal records.

Theoretically we need Werner, Mount, Pulisic, Havertz and Ziyech (possibly add CHO to that aswell) to average a 5 goal improvement each and we effectively have numbers of a new striker, for me that's easily doable.

If anything my preference is getting someone like Sancho (with Ziyech making way) as opposed to going down the out and out striker route, that type is dying out.
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Yeah that's been one of my concerns. It's not as simple as chucking a new #9 up front to finish off the chances we already create and then problem solved. The #9 is a big part of the process that creates those chances in the first place and every striker we've been linked with, elite or otherwise, have completely different characteristics than Havertz and Werner, so as you say, taking an elite guy like Haaland and dropping him into Chelsea's system is not guaranteed to elevate the team's overall performances.

We've already seen this scenario play out on a micro level with Giroud. Of course it's not unreasonable to expect a great coach like Tuchel to be able to figure out how to incorporate a talent like Haaland into the process without sacrificing fluidity and chance creation, but we have something that works and I feel rather protective of, certainly Havertz, but also the balance of the team.
 
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Rajiztar said:
Rumour is Chelsea board will not approve any signing to harm the development of havertz. If the rumour is true then chelsea won't sign big striker with huge amount.

Tuchel will get midfielder and winger in my opinion. If Tammy goes one striker who can play second fiddle to havertz/Werner combo.
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Genuine music to my ears, if true.
 
Not sure why it’s so hard for some to believe that he’d want to come to Chelsea. Both Spanish giants are skint on top of being in need of rebuilds. Many of their top players are getting older (Ramos, Modric, Marcelo, Busquets, Pique, Alba etc). There’s a reason why Florentino was/is utterly desperate to form the Super League and there’s a reason why Barca are doing a free/cheap transfer spree currently. They can’t afford to spend £150m on Haaland.

Meanwhile, he could come to Chelsea and be the final piece in the puzzle for a side that can instantly challenge for the league and CL. Gets to play in the best league, glamorous city, surrounded by top talents who are all young just like he is, and under a world class coach. All while earning a huge wage.

Some of you are acting like we’re Tottenham or Everton.
 
Orc said:
Not sure why it’s so hard for some to believe that he’d want to come to Chelsea. Both Spanish giants are skint on top of being in need of rebuilds. Many of their top players are getting older (Ramos, Modric, Marcelo, Busquets, Pique, Alba etc). There’s a reason why Florentino was/is utterly desperate to form the Super League and there’s a reason why Barca are doing a free/cheap transfer spree currently. They can’t afford to spend £150m on Haaland.

Meanwhile, he could come to Chelsea and be the final piece in the puzzle for a side that can instantly challenge for the league and CL. Gets to play in the best league, glamorous city, surrounded by top talents who are all young just like he is, and under a world class coach. All while earning a huge wage.

Some of you are acting like we’re Tottenham or Everton.
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I have said it on here a few times, Chelsea make the most sense for Haaland as a project and Chelsea become a very scary team if they get Haaland.

Personally, I am not sold on the deal. Only way I can see it possibly happening is if Dortmund really rate Abraham/CHO/Ziyech and maybe can strike a deal for one or two of them to go in the deal. That may work for Chelsea as two are academy players so essentially it is free money.

However, I cannot see Dortmund going for it. Then there is the matter of his wages, I think if he wants the move he will have to come down from the £500k a week mark.
 
Somehow I think a player like Sancho would improve Chelsea than Halaand. Anyways, I hope they get Halaand .
 
Orc said:
Not sure why it’s so hard for some to believe that he’d want to come to Chelsea. Both Spanish giants are skint on top of being in need of rebuilds. Many of their top players are getting older (Ramos, Modric, Marcelo, Busquets, Pique, Alba etc). There’s a reason why Florentino was/is utterly desperate to form the Super League and there’s a reason why Barca are doing a free/cheap transfer spree currently. They can’t afford to spend £150m on Haaland.

Meanwhile, he could come to Chelsea and be the final piece in the puzzle for a side that can instantly challenge for the league and CL. Gets to play in the best league, glamorous city, surrounded by top talents who are all young just like he is, and under a world class coach. All while earning a huge wage.

Some of you are acting like we’re Tottenham or Everton.
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I think a lot of it is people not wanting it to happen, so coming up with reasons to convince themselves it wont.

I dont think it will btw, but of course he'd be interested. I could quite easily see Abramovich splashing it out
 
Chelsea are not historically a big club, that's the only reason I can think of (I hadn't followed this thread). Someone young and exciting like Haaland with the world at his feet, being a target man for the chavs? Seems so anti climatic.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Chelsea are not historically a big club, that's the only reason I can think of (I hadn't followed this thread). Someone young and exciting like Haaland with the world at his feet, being a target man for the chavs? Seems so anti climatic.
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You realise at his age all he's grown seeing of Chelsea is them being successful
 
mu4c_20le said:
Chelsea are not historically a big club, that's the only reason I can think of (I hadn't followed this thread). Someone young and exciting like Haaland with the world at his feet, being a target man for the chavs? Seems so anti climatic.
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If history was all players cared about then A.C. Milan would have the pick of any players that don't go to Real Madrid.
 
1, Money
2, Chance at Trophies
3, Location
4, Historical size of the club

In that order, that's generally what make a players mind up in terms of picking a new club.
 
If Haaland is gettable then of course you look into it but I think people are way too quick to write off Werner. Or at least they are writing him off for the wrong reasons.

Werner outperformed xG in aggregate over his previous three seasons, not by a ton but he wasn't disastrous as a finisher by any means. To say now based on one season that he isn't good enough because of his finishing is very short sighted. Lots of players have had terrible seasons with finishing and its just been a statistical blip.

I think there are some questions about Werner as a CF in certain systems, but in Tuchel's current system he fits really well with his movement into the channels, link up play, and threat to run behind.

The only players with > 20 league starts who surpassed Werner in terms of npXG+XA per 90 this season in the Premier League were KDB, Kane, Mane, Salah, and Michail Antonio. Pretty good company.
 
Powderfinger said:
If Haaland is gettable then of course you look into it but I think people are way too quick to write off Werner. Or at least they are writing him off for the wrong reasons.

Werner outperformed xG in aggregate over his previous three seasons, not by a ton but he wasn't disastrous as a finisher by any means. To say now based on one season that he isn't good enough because of his finishing is very short sighted. Lots of players have had terrible seasons with finishing and its just been a statistical blip.

I think there are some questions about Werner as a CF in certain systems, but in Tuchel's current system he fits really well with his movement into the channels, link up play, and threat to run behind.

The only players with > 20 league starts who surpassed Werner in terms of npXG+XA per 90 this season in the Premier League were KDB, Kane, Mane, Salah, and Michail Antonio. Pretty good company.
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Werner will still play off the left. He played off a cf in leibzig too iirc.
 
Pow said:
Werner will still play off the left. He played off a cf in leibzig too iirc.
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Yup, he played as a wide forward on the left a lot for RBL or as a withdrawn forward in a two striker system.

Tuchel may change his own system around but I don't think Werner is that great of a fit for the attacking midfielder/winger role in the 3-4-2-1 he used to win the CL. That system seemed to really revolve around having players in those roles who could receive it between the lines then turn and create. I may be remembering wrong but my impression was that Tuchel experimented with Werner playing in that position with Tammy/Giroud up front for a month or so but then for the last couple months of the season it was Werner at CF pretty much every match.
 
With a rumoured 4-2-2-2 that Tuchel wants to play:

Mendy
James - Rudiger - Silva - Chilwell
Kante - Jorginho
Havertz - Mount
Haaland - Werner

I think a DM like Rice would also be needed, but yeah.
 
galcianuk said:
With a rumoured 4-2-2-2 that Tuchel wants to play:

Mendy
James - Rudiger - Silva - Chilwell
Kante - Jorginho
Havertz - Mount
Haaland - Werner

I think a DM like Rice would also be needed, but yeah.
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Where is the width coming from?
 
Dave Smith said:
Where is the width coming from?
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In attack the formation is something like (according to his days at PSG):

Mendy
Silva - Rudiger - Jorginho
Kante
James Chilwell
Havertz - Mount
Haaland - Werner

So wing backs provide the width.
 
galcianuk said:
In attack the formation is something like (according to his days at PSG):

Mendy
Silva - Rudiger - Jorginho
Kante
James Chilwell
Havertz - Mount
Haaland - Werner

So wing backs provide the width.
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Personally, I don't see Chelsea coming away for the 3atb system. Ever since they have switched to that system they have had a lot more control over games. Prior to that their games resembled basketball matches. It would be crazy to switch when they have such a defensive record and they're creating a ton of chances but not getting enough goals due to poor finishing.
 
Dave Smith said:
Personally, I don't see Chelsea coming away for the 3atb system. Ever since they have switched to that system they have had a lot more control over games. Prior to that their games resembled basketball matches. It would be crazy to switch when they have such a defensive record and they're creating a ton of chances but not getting enough goals due to poor finishing.
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Personally I don't see chelsea as a three at the back formation or five at the back. Yes personals are three centerback two full backs. But we are comfortable to bring the ball out with centerbacks moving into holes and progressing the ball without much difficult and acting like midfielders. All teams do the same for maintaining the shape and stop being vulnerable for counters.

Rudiger Christensen Silva azpi all are comfortable with the ball and regulars in centerback role and zouma only exception in that aspect.

For any team that's vital always should have numerical advantage while defending. With kante we gained the extra man in defense and attack too especially in transition kante simply provided that extra man in attack too.

Klopp s team do with attacking fullbacks and three withdrawing central midfielders or one attacking central midfielder and fullback of either side go forward.

Pep s team do as well with full backs joining one holding midfielder or either side of one full back joining with attacking central midfielder to maintain the shape in defense as well as attacking the pockets of space.

Modern coaches mostly not fan of strikers who only good at putting ball on the net. They needed that extra man to set the tempo. Pep Klopp tuchel all wanted their forward line to withdraw from occupying box instead have to play along the ball and try to get numerical advantage through out the field.

That's why I still get the feeling haaland is not tuchel s choice but board s choice.Hope it won't get materialise.
 
Is there any Chelsea forum other than Shed End? Pretty strange that strong link with Haaland and they added just couple of pages to the thread! I mean if that was news about United it would have crossed 100 pages on cafe by now.

This Chelsea thread is more vibrant than Shed End.
 
Tony247 said:
Is there any Chelsea forum other than Shed End? Pretty strange that strong link with Haaland and they added just couple of pages to the thread! I mean if that was news about United it would have crossed 100 pages on cafe by now.

This Chelsea thread is more vibrant than Shed End.
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It's always fairly quiet on there, i like to look at opposition forums to get alternative views as otherwise it becomes a bit of an echo chamber
 
Tony247 said:
Thanks. 6 pages in 2 days. Better than Shed End though.
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Every transfer window we get linked to every striker that had a good season or might be moving. It would kill you to think all of the links will actually happen. Added to that Roman’s staff never talks to the media about transfers or he fires them. I think it helps Marina negotiate higher selling fees.

I enjoy Talk Chelsea a bit more than Shed End. SE can be an echo chamber for some that have been there long, people seem to get deleted for politely disagreeing. But I do participate at both places .
 
Tony247 said:
Thanks. 6 pages in 2 days. Better than Shed End though.
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https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/
Not really forum format, but this is perhaps the most active Chelsea community on the internet that I know of, besides Chelsea subreddit. Few years ago, the daily off-topic thread used to hit 3000+ comments on its most active days. The off-topic threads are not as active as before, but the website is still one of the most active Chelsea fan websites I can think of. If you scroll down in that homepage link I've given, you'll see yesterday's Haaland article. 200+ comments.
 
DellaNe said:
https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/
Not really forum format, but this is perhaps the most active Chelsea community on the internet that I know of, besides Chelsea subreddit. Few years ago, the daily off-topic thread used to hit 3000+ comments on its most active days. The off-topic threads are not as active as before, but the website is still one of the most active Chelsea fan websites I can think of. If you scroll down in that homepage link I've given, you'll see yesterday's Haaland article. 200+ comments.
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Thanks. Yes, I am aware of the website. Just that it is not a forum as such.
 
With all this talk about not being title contenders for next season because they lack a quality striker, I believe they'll be the only obstacle in City's title march. I don't see Liverpool improving as dramatically as to challenge for the title.

A worrying trend is players such as Haaland willing to join Chelsea although they're already stacked with players of exceptional ability. My biggest worry is how comfortable they looked against both the Madrid clubs over 4 legs and then in the final. They completely dominated both Real and then City in the final.

Still, might turn out to be a purple patch at a very convenient time.
 
WeePat said:
Neither are great forums.

Chelsea fans are very active on twitter though.
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The shed end is an old mans club full of Random middle aged rants about sport

Scottynaldinho said:
With all this talk about not being title contenders for next season because they lack a quality striker, I believe they'll be the only obstacle in City's title march. I don't see Liverpool improving as dramatically as to challenge for the title.

A worrying trend is players such as Haaland willing to join Chelsea although they're already stacked with players of exceptional ability. My biggest worry is how comfortable they looked against both the Madrid clubs over 4 legs and then in the final. They completely dominated both Real and then City in the final.

Still, might turn out to be a purple patch at a very convenient time.
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Clearly that’s not true. We create plenty of chances almost every game. We had a couple of bad games, west brom, villa and Arsenal we are more than capable of beating.

It’s not a fluke or a purple patch when we comfortably beat Spurs, Liverpool, Madrid, Leicester, atletico x2, city x2 and Porto at different points in the season.

What we need is that one man to put the ball in the net. Mount Would have have been about 3rd on assists if we could have done that.
 
duffer said:
Zouma already has 2 prem titles so I dispute that. Silva was a very good short term option to improve the overall solidity of our defence, I think it's pretty clear he's done that.

Frank signed 6 players, 3 defensive, 3 attacking. Havertz costing what he did obviously skews the figures hugely in favour of the attacking 3 (plus defenders/goalies generally go for less).

Who are these defenders you think would be an improvement on Zouma & Silva that we could've got for £60 mil (that would've joined Chelsea)?
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Must be gutted with the news you're giving away Zouma AND paying €35m for Kounde!

I remember three Chelsea posters arguing vehemently that Zouma was title-winning standard and there wasn't anything better for £60m or less...
 
Lentwood said:
Must be gutted with the news you're giving away Zouma AND paying €35m for Kounde!

I remember three Chelsea posters arguing vehemently that Zouma was title-winning standard and there wasn't anything better for £60m or less...
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Why would I be gutted? If we're getting a defensive upgrade then cool.

You're nowhere near the character limit in that post. What's with the ellipses?

I'll finish it for you; "I remember three Chelsea posters arguing vehemently that Zouma was title-winning standard and there wasn't anything better for £60m or less (that would've joined Chelsea)."

Also, Zouma + 35 mil adds up to 60 in my eyes so I was pretty close!
 
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