Anyway time for some Bergkamp gifs (shamelessly stolen from Anto)
Chain draft round 1 Kazi vs Cutch
- Thread starter VivaJanuzaj
- Start date
I did take note of that
Was he really a regular at LB though? Seemed to me he was more a squad player who got to play at LB when a CB was out and Maldini needed to cover them. I may be wrong though.Great match up. Cutch severely lacks goals with Rossi up front and Bergkamp is on the same level as a goalscorer as well and Donadoni with a defensive Bergomi behind him doesn't seem like a wing that will create a lot of chances. Luckily Kazi has set up in a way that allows for Cutch to soak up the pressure and create chances through the world class defensive unit they undoubtedly are which makes things a lot easier.
I really need to learn more about a few of Kazi's players before voting though and I'd love to wait for the match thread arguments as well.
I really need to learn more about a few of Kazi's players before voting though and I'd love to wait for the match thread arguments as well.
I needed a player of Lodetti's ilk next to Bozsik, and Lodetti was the only/best one I could have gone for to complete my chain. Someone like Desailly would have been so perfect for this role.
I did take note of that
In 93-94 he was a regular at left back when they won the league and Champions League. I'm mistaken because he actually moved to rightback to take Tassottis place for the next 2.5 seasons before being transferred to Real Madrid. Milan was a very impressive time in his career but it did take a bit of a nosedive and he was a bit meh by the time he reached Chelsea. The Bravo award for best U23 player in Europe is a bit mental when you look at the esteemed company he's in, but it shows the high regard he was thought of.
1989
Paolo Maldini Milan1990
Roberto Baggio Fiorentina1991
Robert Prosinečki Red Star Belgrade1992
Josep Guardiola Barcelona1993
Ryan Giggs 
Manchester United1994
Christian Panucci Milan1995
Patrick Kluivert Ajax Amsterdam1996
Alessandro Del Piero Juventus1997
Ronaldo BarcelonaIn 93-94 he was a regular at left back when they won the league and Champions League. I'm mistaken because he actually moved to rightback to take Tassottis place for the next 2.5 seasons before being transferred to Real Madrid. Milan was a very impressive time in his career but it did take a bit of a nosedive and he was a bit meh by the time he reached Chelsea. The Bravo award for best U23 player in Europe is a bit mental when you look at the esteemed company he's in, but it shows the high regard he was thought of.
1989
1990
1991
1992
1993
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1997
I always rated him and, errrr, always got shot of Tassotti and played him instead on CM
Nah, seriously, he was a good player and a very versatile one as proven at Roma so I always consider him in drafts. But this is playing leftback against Hamrin so he has his work cut out. It's a clear source of danger, which doesn't make it an easy route to goal by any means, just a much more feasible one than Boniperti out wide vs. Bergomi.
I always rated him and, errrr, always got shot of Tassotti and played him instead on CM
Nah, seriously, he was a good player and a very versatile one as proven at Roma so I always consider him in drafts. But this is playing leftback against Hamrin so he has his work cut out. It's a clear source of danger, which doesn't make it an easy route to goal by any means, just a much more feasible one than Boniperti out wide vs. Bergomi.
But what about my wing threats at the other end? Surely they have a clearer path to goal? Plus the mostly unmarked Dennis.
Hamrin could get some joy maybe on the outside of Panucci due to the compact nature of the defence and it being his weaker side but that doesn't really scream trouble to me. If he's limited to crosses I'd be happy enough as it negates his notable scoring threat as I think Panucci will be alive to through balls in the inside channel in behind the defence. Plus it's Passarella on that side aswell organising things.
Conti and Donadoni on the other hand will be collecting balls on the half way line and gettin a run at the 3 man back line. You'd have to fancy my sides chances of soaking up pressure and picking them off on the break.
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I know!
Now, you can all queue up to laugh at me. I hate rating players through stats alone, but I'm not about to go and watch hours of Lodetti footage. I've never played PES before but after taking the piss a bit a while back I actually noticed people put a lot of work into these things, more than I'm willing to put into finding out about Lodetti so I may as well go with their objective view...
Firstly I tried comparing Evani and Lodetti as I found Cutch's comparison pretty odd, I didn't expect Evani to be a basis for comaprison but I can't claim too have followed his career in detail. Indeed, PES stats quickly determine he was a completely different kind of player.
I don't know what this scores really mean, I sort of gathered 80+ is pretty fecking good and 90+ is GOAT territory. But in comparative terms they should help, right? So I actually picked Desailly as a gold standard on the job at hand here, then compared them across stats that could be construed to be relevant to a DM job.
My take from that is he is a determined water-carrying DM, will do a job, but will have a hard time stopping someone like Bergkamp with a man-marking mission, so it's probably a good thing you haven't pinned all your hopes on that but instead wnet with a tactically-disciplined space-squeezing job.
Not terrible by any means, and I rate Picchi very highly. I did look long and hard at how to get him but it was pretty much impossible getting a decent chain/third player who hadn't played with Giacinto.
Precisely my point re: having a hard time seeing how he could outscore you here.
The Evani comparison was solely in terms of their standing in the AC Milan legends echelons. They're both different types of player but to me their cvs were comparable. Evani is a sub in my side while Lodetti is tasked with a very large assignment which I question he's capable of without looking like a weak link.
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Bit of a moot point but the 2 formations here remind me of the game I played in myself yesterday. Losing 3-2 with 10 to go and we seemed to employ a formation similar to Kazi's to try and force an equaliser against a well organised side. I voiced my own disapproval but was met with 'feck it we'll probably concede but may aswell lose 4-2 than do nothing'. Needless to say we lost 4-2. As one of the 3 at the back leaving 1v1 in defence I can only say it's no wonder no one plays that way anymore unless they're desperate. It might get you a goal but you'll more than likely get picked off by a good side. So there you go, real life experience
In fairness though, Lodetti started for one of the best teams in Europe while Evani was largely a squad player, which explains the difference.
Also, knocking him down for Italy's 66 performance is ignoring that side performed well under expectations. He didn't get dropped though and in fact started for Italy in their 1968 Euro win.
Quite clearly on a separate tier to Evani in my book, although while the latter is on the bench Lodetti does indeed have one of the most demanding and crucial roles in the game.
I know!
Now, you can all queue up to laugh at me. I hate rating players through stats alone, but I'm not about to go and watch hours of Lodetti footage. I've never played PES before but after taking the piss a bit a while back I actually noticed people put a lot of work into these things, more than I'm willing to put into finding out about Lodetti so I may as well go with their objective view...
Firstly I tried comparing Evani and Lodetti as I found Cutch's comparison pretty odd, I didn't expect Evani to be a basis for comaprison but I can't claim too have followed his career in detail. Indeed, PES stats quickly determine he was a completely different kind of player.
I don't know what this scores really mean, I sort of gathered 80+ is pretty fecking good and 90+ is GOAT territory. But in comparative terms they should help, right? So I actually picked Desailly as a gold standard on the job at hand here, then compared them across stats that could be construed to be relevant to a DM job.
My take from that is he is a determined water-carrying DM, will do a job, but will have a hard time stopping someone like Bergkamp with a man-marking mission, so it's probably a good thing you haven't pinned all your hopes on that but instead wnet with a tactically-disciplined space-squeezing job.
Not terrible by any means, and I rate Picchi very highly. I did look long and hard at how to get him but it was pretty much impossible getting a decent chain/third player who hadn't played with Giacinto.
Lodetti has decent jumping at least! Cutch's point was that he is the most under-whelming of the midfielders on the pitch and it's hard to really argue with that. But I can foresee a situation where he could be the unsung hero in this match-up. Once I make the comeback to 10-9, I'm gonna watch like every match Lodetti's featured in that's on youtube.If my immediate pressing once I lose the ball doesn't work, hopefully I can get back to something like this and contain. Perhaps still a bit light down the flanks if Cutch's wingers isolate my full-backs, but possibly Bozsik could drop in to allow one of the four behind him to double up on a winger, or Bozsik could go himself to help out. I'd be hesitant to have my wingers up and down for ninety minutes, but it may have to be necessary if things aren't going too well on one side.
Should have used lower case ffs
Lodetti's "Response" rating of 86 means that he's very good at anticipating situations, marking out opponents, and reading the game. The Defence rating indicates the defensive abilities of the player (includes marking, defensive positioning, and reading of the game), and Lodetti at 79 is normal for defensive midfielders (Davids, for example, has 76 for Defence, and de Rossi has 82 for Defence). Desailly has 90 because he also played as a central defender, who normally have higher Defence ratings than defensive midfielders.I know!
Now, you can all queue up to laugh at me. I hate rating players through stats alone, but I'm not about to go and watch hours of Lodetti footage. I've never played PES before but after taking the piss a bit a while back I actually noticed people put a lot of work into these things, more than I'm willing to put into finding out about Lodetti so I may as well go with their objective view...
Firstly I tried comparing Evani and Lodetti as I found Cutch's comparison pretty odd, I didn't expect Evani to be a basis for comaprison but I can't claim too have followed his career in detail. Indeed, PES stats quickly determine he was a completely different kind of player.
I don't know what this scores really mean, I sort of gathered 80+ is pretty fecking good and 90+ is GOAT territory. But in comparative terms they should help, right? So I actually picked Desailly as a gold standard on the job at hand here, then compared them across stats that could be construed to be relevant to a DM job.
My take from that is he is a determined water-carrying DM, will do a job, but will have a hard time stopping someone like Bergkamp with a man-marking mission, so it's probably a good thing you haven't pinned all your hopes on that but instead wnet with a tactically-disciplined space-squeezing job.
Not terrible by any means, and I rate Picchi very highly. I did look long and hard at how to get him but it was pretty much impossible getting a decent chain/third player who hadn't played with Giacinto.
What Lodetti's PES stats tell me is that he's a very good defensive midfielder. His 79 Defence rating indicates good marking, positional play, and reading of the game. His 86 Response rating indicates great anticipation and reactions to situations, and his 92 Stamina makes him a tireless runner. In short, he's a very good ball winner and shield of the defence, and this makes sense as his defensive work in midfield gave Milan's attacking players and Rivera, in particular, the solid defensive foundation for their own game.
Now, in this case, I don't really think he can do well as a 4th central defender. For me, he looks similar to Mascherano in central defence: he'll be very good at winning the ball, closing down players, and making last-ditch tackles and challenges, but he will be a weak point as he's not really a good enough stopper to partner Picchi mainly due to his aggressive approach. Kazi's setup is very aggressive, and I don't think Kazi has enough energy in midfield to play this effectively. Lodetti and Picchi will be overloaded in the middle, and Bergkamp will likely have a good time in his free role. Lodetti, as a ball-winning midfielder, will be prone to being dragged around by Cutch's attacking players, so Picchi will have a very tough time even if he is more than just a sweeper at the back. I just don't think Boszik can provide enough support to Lodetti and Picchi in the middle as he doesn't have the energy levels to provide enough support. Luisito Suarez also doesn't provide enough defensive work in the middle for me (yes, I did read @Joga Bonito's great article on Luisito from a past draft, but even then, he had a back 4 + defensive midfielder in front of him).
Going forward, however, I can see how Kazi can cause a few issues particularly with attacking overloads everywhere. Hamrin can make incisive runs with Mazzola drifting around in the final third looking for passes from Suarez and Boszik, or Mazzola can go for goal with Hamrin stretching the defence. Luisito can also go for goal with Mazzola dropping back to get on the ball and create chances, and vice versa. Boniperti, however, could conflict with Mazzola as he'll be frequently coming inside. Being a more right-sided player, playing Bonperti on the left will leave Kazi's team narrow and easier to defend against, particularly with Cutch's formidable defence. Bonperti frequently cutting in makes Bergomi's job easier with Vierchowod in close support. Mazzola, Kocsis, Hamrin, and Luisito will cause Cutch's defence problems with their movement, creativity, technique, and goalscoring abilities, but without an outlet at the left side (like Facchetti for Inter under Herrera), the front 5 will have a tough time breaking down Cutch's defence.
Kazi badly needs a left-sided threat to make the match an even affair. At this moment, I think Cutch is going to win this one.
That won't work, though. Lodetti will be prone to getting dragged around due to his aggressive nature, and Bozsik is too passive to play a holding role with Luisito partnering him. Having two very good stoppers in Burgnich and Ferri on the flanks won't be enough as the middle is too porous for me and too reliant on Picchi.
Fair points. I guess with the way I've set up, I am counting on being able to outplay Cutch for pretty much the whole match, and the lack of a proper old-fashioned left-winger does seem like more of a barrier than I thought it'd be.
Your setup would beat Cutch if you just had a left winger and box-to-box midfielder to partner Lodetti. If you didn't have a box-to-box midfielder, though, your approach could still cause Cutch problems if you had a left winger. However, the absence of a left winger makes things very difficult for you, even though your team has an awesome attack and a strong back 3.
Bit of a moot point but the 2 formations here remind me of the game I played in myself yesterday. Losing 3-2 with 10 to go and we seemed to employ a formation similar to Kazi's to try and force an equaliser against a well organised side. I voiced my own disapproval but was met with 'feck it we'll probably concede but may aswell lose 4-2 than do nothing'. Needless to say we lost 4-2. As one of the 3 at the back leaving 1v1 in defence I can only say it's no wonder no one plays that way anymore unless they're desperate. It might get you a goal but you'll more than likely get picked off by a good side. So there you go, real life experience
It can be done with the right personnel
I think that was my third attempt though, 3-2-5s are extremely difficult to pull off and I'm stunned at how well @Kazi has done given the mechanics of this draft.
If my immediate pressing once I lose the ball doesn't work, hopefully I can get back to something like this and contain. Perhaps still a bit light down the flanks if Cutch's wingers isolate my full-backs, but possibly Bozsik could drop in to allow one of the four behind him to double up on a winger, or Bozsik could go himself to help out. I'd be hesitant to have my wingers up and down for ninety minutes, but it may have to be necessary if things aren't going too well on one side.
Should have used lower case ffs
Problem is, that's an absolute requirement in this setup, you can't have passenger wingers.
I don't usually like these shirt-matching exercises and this is a case in point: you seem to be completely ignoring the entire point of Daniel Alberto Passarella. He will be a handful.
I knew someone more familiar with PES could shed light on that (particularly the Defence 90 stuff for defenders, I suppose that also applies to Evani's aggression not being of the same sort as that of a DM?).
From what I had gathered he seemed to be the typical catenaccio ball winner ala Furino and you seem to confirm that.
That is Cutch's secret weapon right here. With him pushing up, Kazi will effectively be overloaded at the back.
I wouldn't say that I'm more familiar with PES, but I did play it for a few years in the PS2.
Still, though, it's exactly as you said. Now, if Lodetti were to partner Boszik in midfield with a stopper behind him partnering Picchi, that'd be perfect.
I mean, if he miraculously goes through, he still has a chance of getting Czibor.Stop reminding him of how he picked Kocsis and not Czibor
Still, though, I mean, this effectively did "break" his team (even though it's too harsh in this case). Not picking Czibor made it tough for Kazi to stretch the game on both sides.
Out of interest, I'd like to know why people who voted for Kazi voted for him. I'm wondering if they see something that I'm not seeing.
@sajeev @Balu @Tuppet @green_smiley If you guys don't mind, could you (at least briefly) tell me why you voted for Kazi? What am I not seeing that you guys are seeing?
@sajeev @Balu @Tuppet @green_smiley If you guys don't mind, could you (at least briefly) tell me why you voted for Kazi? What am I not seeing that you guys are seeing?
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I love turtles
Lodetti plays a crucial role in Kazi's team. I admit I don't know much about him, but as he was a regular in title-winning Milan team, I foresee he will do a good job in screening the back three. Kazi's 3-man defense is also well suited for his defenders, all comfortable in their role. Boszik is also good at defending and have great passing range, so he will do well alongside Lodetti.
Hamrin will love to face against Panucci, while Bonaperti will not be worried about Bergomi overlapping because most likely he won't. Then you have Mazzola who can play anywhere in attack: inside-right, supporting striker, forward. Together with Suarez, they will be plenty of chance for him and Koscis to score. And with Kazi's attacking array, I don't think Pasarella can afford to go forward as often as he wants to
Haven't voted yet myself. But Rossi wasn't a proper goalscorer bar his 1982 success and only scored 13 goals at best in league season for Juventus between '81-'85 and his all-round game was a bigger strength of his. The same of course applies to Bergkamp who was a second striker also known for his all-round game more than his abilities as a great goalscorer. With two wide midfielders in Donadoni(who has a defensive full back on his side) and Conti wasn't a goalscorer by any means either.
What keeps me from voting is the fact that Cutch couldn't be happier with the way Kazi is set out to play here. Conti and Donadoni are fantastic defensively and Davids and De Rossi make for a defensively brilliant centre mid pairing as well that probably lacks offensively a fair bit. But in this game the game plan for Kazi is to push a lot of men forward and to dominate the game in which case Cutch's world class defense(as a team) will be worth a whole lot more than the things they are lacking.
Bergkamp and Rossi looks pretty capable of scoring and for Rossi's lack of goals there is no doubt about how he positively affected Michel Platini's goalscoring and I could see a slight boost to Bergkamps numbers with that in regard.
What speaks for Kazi is the fact that he doesn't just have Kocsis who can score goals, Hamrin is not just a winger but also an equal goalscoring threat of Bergkamp or Rossi while Mazzola and Boniperti are good goalscorers as well. While Boniperti isn't a left footed left winger it is at least going to be facing Donadoni and Bergomi - which isn't the path you want to attack against. Hamrin seeing a lot of the ball against Panucci is the better option anyhow and that can lead to both goals and swarms of crosses as well.
Hamrin is one of the best wingers in history. "Kurt Hamrin, who was known in Italy as ‘l’uccellino’ - the little bird - was one of Serie A’s great players of the 1950s and 60s. He was also one of the finest footballers Sweden has ever produced. He was fast and direct, sturdy, skilful and courageous with superb powers of dribbling and acceleration, fantastic opportunist and brillant finisher. He was also blessed with a centre forward’s nose for goal and explosive reflexes, only Filippo Inzaghi could react quicker than Hamrin in whole Serie A history. Hamrin's speed in first 5-6 meters was unbelievable, surpassing human capacities and was never seen before or after Kurt Hamrin. His tricks were legendary, he could do everything with the ball, many times embarassing his markers.
Despite being a winger, Hamrin nearly always challenged for the title of Serie A capocannoniere. The men from Veneto finished third, thanks mainly to Hamrin’s goals and that summer he returned - understandably on a high - to his native Sweden to take part in the World Cup. The winger made his international bow in 1956 but after joining Juventus where he turned professional, he forfeited his place in the national side since only amateurs could play for Sweden. However, on the eve of the 1958 Finals, this rule was relaxed by the Swedish FA - no doubt to improve Sweden’s chances on home soil. Hamrin emerged as one of the stars of that World Cup, coming into his own in the quarter-final against Russia and the semi-final against West Germany. Against the Russians he unleashed his full armoury of tricks, dummying both ways and accelerating past his markers. The Swedes won 2-0 with Hamrin heading the first and setting up the second, beating three men before cutting the ball back to the grateful Simonsson. One journalist describing this match said: "It was though Hamrin had launched a personal blitzkrieg."
Against the ruthless Germans he was once again Sweden’s danger man, tormenting his marker, full-back Juskowiak, time and time again. The defender became so wound up that when Hamrin - who, wrote the English journalist Brian Glanville, bore his way through the German defence "like an inspired mole" - fouled him 12 minutes into the second half, he lost his temper and retaliated, resulting in him being sent off. With the Germans down to 10 men Sweden won 3-1 with Hamrin scoring the third a minute from time. It was arguably the best individual goal of the competition. Receiving the ball he began to trundle with it towards the touchline "like a man stricken by temporary amnesia," wrote Glanville. Then he suddenly came alive, beating one man, then a second and a third before slipping the ball past German goalkeeper Herkenrat"
1958:
Mexico vs Sweden 3-0 - Gets pulled down in the penalty area which leads to a penalty that Liedholm converts.
Sweden vs Hungary 2-1 - Hamrin scores both goals.
Sweden vs Wales 0-0
Sweden vs Soviet 2-0 - Hamrin scores first goal and has a great game in general.
Sweden vs West Germany 3-1 - Hamrin gets Juskowiak sent off, Hamrin assists the 2-1 goal and finishes the game with his 3-1 goal.
Sweden vs Brazil 4-2 - Kept rather quiet by Nilton Santos.
With that said in terms of quality Conti is absolutely remarkable as well and on a similar level.
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I agree. Rossi's lack of goals will cause some issues for Cutch, and the lack of goalscorers in the team will also cause some problems. However, this shouldn't discount the fact that Rossi was a clinical finisher, and whenever he would get the chance, he would score. Plus, Bergkamp was also a great goalscorer, and with Rossi around, he'll be presented with more goalscoring opportunities.
Ultimately speaking, here's the thing: Kazi's awesome attack made this a tight choice for me. Given Cutch's lack of goalscoring, incisive threat, it wasn't an easy vote for me. However, the lack of a left-sided threat to create more 1-on-1 situations for Hamrin is balancing my vote at the moment.
Still, after having read Cutch's "Tactics" again, I think I'll pull back my vote and think about this even more. I'd like @Cutch to delve into his team's approach more before I actually decide on who to vote for.
I am leaning towards Cutch myself.
I am as well, but I'm not fully convinced by Cutch's setup. All he's saying is "my defensive players will take care of themselves" which I'm not really convinced with.
Yup my concerns too!
To be fair, it doesn't need much explaining, it's a pretty straightforward setup with players everyone should be familiar with. I for one I'm grateful we weren't subjected to a tactical wall of text by either manager.
I can't get over the very simple fact that Cutch is more likely to score more goals. Only reason I haven't voted yet is I'm not a big fan of harsh scorelines. Kazi has made a splendid effort and has been unlucky to get paired up with a side that so clearly counters his strengths while being able to exploit key weaknesses. e.g. had he faced a diamond he would be very likely to blow them out of the water.
If it is just this, then I'm quite concerned about Cutch's team trying to stop Kazi's attack. Mazzola and Boszik will occupy defence with their movement, and de Rossi + Davids will have their work cut out in trying to stop the supply to the front 4.
I think I'll vote for Kazi here not because I think his team will win but because I want the votes to indicate that this is a closer match than it seems.
Here's another thing though: I love his attack. His attack is more complete, more incisive, and more threatening going forward than yours. You just have a great defence and the advantage of Kazi's lack of a left-wing threat, which allows you to handle his attacking players though not necessarily contain them. Plus, Kazi's team is not balanced enough to deal with your team, overall, but I still believe that his team can somehow outscore yours.Not this again
Cutch's team came out lot less shiny that what it seemed like it would at one point in the draft.
It is tempting to vote for Kazi here, as it always is to vote for someone trying out such a wild formation rather than the plain old boring 4231 / 433 / 442. But Cutch's defensive steel is enough to hold out and nick a 1-0 draw here. I also think his wingers are getting a bit underrated here.
It is tempting to vote for Kazi here, as it always is to vote for someone trying out such a wild formation rather than the plain old boring 4231 / 433 / 442. But Cutch's defensive steel is enough to hold out and nick a 1-0 draw here. I also think his wingers are getting a bit underrated here.
That is true indeed but the back four and the DM were purely utilizing man-marking tactics defensively and under Herrera, Luisito had to more than pull his weight in that midfield duo. He had excellent work rate and brilliant tactical and defensive nous - he was much more than a classy playmaker. Herrera truly left his mark on him and the Inter version of Luisito was a complete makeover from the Barca version.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-uefa-euro-fantasy-draft.403052/page-60#post-17480017
Some gifs I made from his Euro 1964 final (not available on the net unfortunately but plenty of Inter matches online) and you can see the amount of graft he possesses, in addition to the sheer class of his. I don't see any problems with Suárez in that midfield tbh.
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