Centre backs?

Joga Bonito said:
This. If we are going to get another ball playing defender it means we are going to stick with 3-5-2, however with the signing of Di Maria, I am convinced we are moving towards a 4-3-3 which is LVG's preferred formation. I think one of Evans/Jones/Smalling will thrive alongside a more imposing and commanding defender who is also good with the ball at his feet. That defender could be Rojo, he is as tough as nails and commanding whilst he is good with the ball as well as shown be his proficient displays at left back. He would perfect to partner one of our existing defenders and I think it would be good enough.

The main problem is lack of cover/protection for our centre backs from the midfield. Fletcher and Cleverley have been gash in this regard and offer next to no protection when it comes to screening the defence or acting as a ball terrier by vigourously closing down the opposition whilst putting a fair amount of tackles in. We could ideally do with a commanding ball-winning presence in front of the midfield ala Vidal but with Carrick, Herrera and Di Maria in midfield this would be very good. Carrick screens in front of the defence with his excellent positioning and reading ability while Herrera and Di Maria(to a lesser extent) act like hybrid midfield terriers who have excellent workrate and are proficient at putting in tackles and winning the ball as well.

I am more concerned about our depth in certain areas such as central mid, wing backs and wingers. We have Fletcher, Anderson, Cleverley, Fellaini as cover for central mid whilst we have Young, Valencia as cover for our full backs and wingers as well. So we should clear the deadwood in those areas and replace them with better younger players who can provide excellent cover. We have a good defence(if we play 4 at the back) who have simply found it hard adjusting to the 3-5-2 formation and have compatibility issues as a duo. That should change with Rojo I hope.
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People go on about how our players need to learn 352 before we start playing it the right way. Thing is I don't think it's the best formation for United and it's definitely not the best formation for van Gaal who has used 433 far more frequently. He used 352 for Holland out of necessity and it worked well at the World Cup so he thought he could implement it at United with similar outcome only he couldn't - primarly because our players aren't flexible enough tactically to pull it off.

Since our current personnel is better suited to 433, our players are more familiar with that formation (basically 433/4231 is what we have played for a while under Fergie) and van Gaal has had plenty of success with it, why insist on something that may or may not work when 433 is pretty much your certain thing (unless you cock it up by playing wrong players)?
 
I think some experience like Ron Vlaar would help. Then next summer, it will be a complete different ball game as players like Varane or Hummels might be available.
 
Sarni said:
People go on about how our players need to learn 352 before we start playing it the right way. Thing is I don't think it's the best formation for United and it's definitely not the best formation for van Gaal who has used 433 far more frequently. He used 352 for Holland out of necessity and it worked well at the World Cup so he thought he could implement it at United with similar outcome only he couldn't - primarly because our players aren't flexible enough tactically to pull it off.

Since our current personnel is better suited to 433, our players are more familiar with that formation (basically 433/4231 is what we have played for a while under Fergie) and van Gaal has had plenty of success with it, why insist on something that may or may not work when 433 is pretty much your certain thing (unless you cock it up by playing wrong players)?
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LVG is not stubborn or arrogant as some are making him out to be when it comes to formations. He is rather entrenched with his 'philosophy' but he doesn't exactly have a formation template to fulfil it. For instance, his Netherlands squad was using a 4-3-3 formation when playing the world cup qualifiers and it took them about a month(if I am not wrong) to change their formation to 3-5-2 to compensate for the lack of Strootman. He also played a 4-3-3 against Australia in the second half when it didn't work and 4-3-3 against Swansea in the second half as well. As of now 4-3-3 will be the best formation and I think LVG will use what's best to utilize the resources at his disposal.
 
Joga Bonito said:
LVG is not stubborn or arrogant as some are making him out to be when it comes to formations. He is rather entrenched with his 'philosophy' but he doesn't exactly have a formation template to fulfil it. For instance, his Netherlands squad was using a 4-3-3 formation when playing the world cup qualifiers and it took them about a month(if I am not wrong) to change their formation to 3-5-2 to compensate for the lack of Strootman. He also played a 4-3-3 against Australia in the second half when it didn't work and 4-3-3 against Swansea in the second half as well. As of now 4-3-3 will be the best formation and I think LVG will use what's best to utilize the resources at his disposal.
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I've noticed that too. Their flexibility at World Cup was decent, they also switched to 433 and introduced Depay (I think) against Mexico which led to the equalizer and then winning penalty. I think more often than not we are going to play 433 although I wouldn't write off the possibility of using 352 once in a while.
 
Joga Bonito said:
This. If we are going to get another ball playing defender it means we are going to stick with 3-5-2, however with the signing of Di Maria, I am convinced we are moving towards a 4-3-3 which is LVG's preferred formation. I think one of Evans/Jones/Smalling will thrive alongside a more imposing and commanding defender who is also good with the ball at his feet. That defender could be Rojo, he is as tough as nails and commanding whilst he is good with the ball as well as shown be his proficient displays at left back. He would perfect to partner one of our existing defenders and I think it would be good enough.

The main problem is lack of cover/protection for our centre backs from the midfield.
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While true, I would also say that it is a problem of lack of fullbacks. Think about it. Shaw and Rafael have been more often than not injured since LVG has arrived. Who would you play in those positions? Rafael is seeming to be our only natural right back, with youth prospect Varela (I think?) apparently heading to Real.
 
revel911 said:
I would say Evans, Smalling and Jones still have potential
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It really has got to the point that you have to ask, especially of Evans, when that potential, if ever, is going to be realised.

Evans for definite has reached his level. It's not good enough.
 
It's not about numbers like a few are suggesting, we obviously have the numbers. The problem is quality, and leadership. We could clearly do with an established commanding center back with some leadership qualities about him as well. Jones/Smalling/Evans separated are good enough in my opinion, but when paired together there is no leader and things fall apart. I like Evans as a player a lot but you just have to look at the game last night to see his obvious flaws.
 
2mufc0 said:
Smalling, Evans, Rojo, Jones and Blackett will be sufficient enough this year, the club are putting a lot of faith in Smalling and Jones let's hope they step up, if not i can see us buying some next summer.

Also once Herrera get's settled, Carrick get's back and if we sign another decent CM our defence will be fine, our midfield does no favours to our defence at all at the moment.
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Ain't that the truth. Once we get a few healthy fullbacks or even wingbacks that have some defensive capabilities, that will also add padding for the CB's. Right now between stupid mistakes which ca
Barca84 said:
It really has got to the point that you have to ask, especially of Evans, when that potential, if ever, is going to be realised.

Evans for definite has reached his level. It's not good enough.
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My point wasn't that we don't need a CB's, it's just that we need a partner for Herrera far more.
 
I can't imagine any of the current CB's being a future United captain such as Bruce, Vidic or Rio. None of them are leaders, none of them can organize the defense or be the hollow guy back there. To me that's the biggest problem back there, they are being caught out of position, they are afraid to make that saving tackle, there's just no confidence in the way they play. What's needed is a experienced CB who can take charge back there. Go back for Hummels, Kagawa and £ 20-25m should make Dortmund seriously think about selling.
 
None of them seem to have a real leaders personality. We need someone to marshal the defence.
 
I'm okay with our CB options. Despite last nights game, I still rate Evans and see real potential in Jones, Blackett and Smalling. I do believe if we persist with them and give them the experience they need, it will pay off for us in the long run.

The issue we have in both defense and attack is that bloody midfield. The midfield is supposed to help out in defense and attack and the ones we have do neither. It's why we look vulnerable at the back and toothless in attack. You can look at top teams and find deficiences with their defenders, but it hasn't had the effect on their teams as it has on us. That's because top teams like Barcelona, City, Arsenal and Chelsea all have good midfields that don't constantly expose their defense. It's not like CB's on their teams would fare any better here given the same circumstances. John Terry would look like Boumsong if he had to play in our defense at this moment.
 
sincher said:
This is not to do with the system.

Does noone else think we need a new centre back? Really?

Yes I know we could do with a new central midfielder, and maybe more urgently, but there are plenty of those already under discussion. The market looks thin for defenders.
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I do - we need an experienced leader. Benetia would have been almost perfect. Evans didn't show he was ready to assume the mantle yesterday.
 
Red Pavan said:
The awkward moment when Spurs have a stronger defensive squad cover than United.
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It's only to be expected: United have insisted on allocating - on additions to the title-winning squad - nearly 80% of their massive spending on non-defenders, with the bulk of the remainder spent on a singe player (Shaw).
 
What a silly way to put it. We have 'insisted'.
 
sincher said:
What a silly way to put it. We have 'insisted'.
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It wasn't forced on you. There have been choices and decisions made all along the way to where you are now.
 
GlastonSpur said:
See Red Pavan's post above.
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Debatable, though on the couple of times I have seen Fazio he has looked decent. Interesting that the pretty average Fernandez was picked ahead of him for Argentina though.

Your defence is much like ours, has some promise but is lacking a standout player. Backup is not really an issue for either team.
 
Where are the top quality defenders anyway?

A few years ago football seemed to be awash with top quality centre half's... Leaders on the pitch and men who put a shift in when they pulled on the shirt.

In England we had players like Bruce, Pallister, Adams, Campbell. On the continent players like Dallas, Marques, Puyol, Maldini.

Maybe its just me but I can't get my head around teams like Barca being so dominant with centre halves like Mascerano and Pique. Ones a DM and the other wasn't great at United yet started for Barca pretty much as soon as he rejoined!
 
Throw everything at Atletico for Miranda - to me, he was the best centre-back in world football last year (and still managed to be omitted by Mr. Scolari). Unbelievable player. Unfortunately, I don't think he's going anywhere.

Hummels & Benatia are clearly no longer options, so no one really sticks out anymore. De Vrij, perhaps? Vlaar is a massive improvement on what we have, but i'd like to think that if we are going to go and buy a CB, we'd buy one better than him. It would be like a lesser version of the Fellaini situation.
 
More than anyone I would hope us to sign Aymeric Laporte, if Hummels and Varane aren't possible. Obviously he's just 20 and not the leader most want here, but for his age similar to Varane he's already a very good centre-half. He signed a new contract this summer though, his release clause is 45m, I think, it's a lot but I think if we go in for him next summer, he could have a similar career with us like Ferdinand.
 
Cantona'sCollar said:
Throw everything at Atletico for Miranda - to me, he was the best centre-back in world football last year (and still managed to be omitted by Mr. Scolari). Unbelievable player. Unfortunately, I don't think he's going anywhere.

Hummels & Benatia are clearly no longer options, so no one really sticks out anymore. De Vrij, perhaps? Vlaar is a massive improvement on what we have, but i'd like to think that if we are going to go and buy a CB, we'd buy one better than him. It would be like a lesser version of the Fellaini situation.
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Well, I suppose that Lazio won't be happy to sell.
 
I'd give our set of defenders a chance, especially if we revert to a back four following di Maria's arrival. That might not be prudent given three of them pick up frequent injuries and none of them are of the highest quality or even near it, but four of them (Rojo, Smalling, Jones and Blackett) certainly have scope for improvement and Evans isn't a bad player.

There doesn't seem anyone of sufficient quality worth pursuing this summer anyway after Benatia joined Bayern. We should wait till next summer and go all out for Hummels.
 
MTR said:
Well, I suppose that Lazio won't be happy to sell.
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You're probably right. In addition, he'd command a huge price as they know we are desperate. We have 3 days until the window closes, it is the very definition of a panic buy. I didn't think he was particularly great at the World Cup either, but I feel he'd gel well with Van Gaal & is still a massive improvement on our centrebacks.
 
I don't think we will sign another CB and we probably shouldn't. We will change to a back 4 rather sooner than later and then we are stocked with Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Evans, Blackett. We haven't seen Rojo so far, maybe he is a huge improvement for our defence.
 
Our defense was quite shocking in 2012/13. We were battering teams going forward though. Go back to a back 4 with a decent midfield and we'll be alright I reckon. Bring the fear factor back and teams aren't quite as confident against us.
 
We have four. If we revert back to a four man defence then we're fine. Trust what we have here already, provide them with a suitable midfield and watch them grow. The talent is all there, we simply mustn't hold it back any longer.
 
We don't really need a CB if we go 4 at the back.Maybe if someone of real quality and stature is available but cannot see who is at the moment for anything short of overpaying fair bit.

Might need 1 more CB if we continue 3-5-2 though.

Midfield is the concern for me and improving it will mean the defenders will do better anyway.
 
Let's just hope Rojo's a level or two above the other three. If he's around the same level then we're still lacking in quality.

They just aren't good enough, to be honest.
 
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