Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[The Outsider]

The EU isn't pushing directly but it is indirectly undermining the reason for the existence of large nation states by its very existence. Once you have a framework for small nation states and regions within larger nation states to exist as entities and to organize themselves within super-national bodies like the EU without consequence you are saying the nation-state is dead. I'm not sure this thinking is correct but it is the direction of travel and is a cause of the idea of the viability of small state thinking.

Thanks for clarifying I now see your logic.

I hope I don't offend anyone with this question, but why is Catalonia a part of Spain in the first place? The language they speak is different, and the people appear to be of a separate and distinct heritage.

Local powers, consider Wales has its own language suppressed for a while and blossoming in recent times. Not suggesting they should go their own way though.

How feasible is an independent Catalonia? Can they be self sustainable - do they have a lot of natural resources? I've heard there's a lot of industry in the region, but what type of industry?

I'm not sure, I know they make a wine like champagne that is popular in Spain yet know at least one Spanish person that won't drink it if they go independent. Which begs the question, how much of their trade is based with Spain?

 

[Kentonio]

The EU isn't pushing directly but it is indirectly undermining the reason for the existence of large nation states by its very existence. Once you have a framework for small nation states and regions within larger nation states to exist as entities and to organize themselves within super-national bodies like the EU without consequence you are saying the nation-state is dead. I'm not sure this thinking is correct but it is the direction of travel and is a cause of the idea of the viability of small state thinking.

It's actually a possible solution to all of these independence and seperatism issues. Would it really be a big issue for the large nation states to die? Even within England there have been major divides between north, southeast, southwest and west for as long as I can remember (and probably east, but who knows what the six-fingers marsh people actually think?).

The EU could be the solution to centuries of bad blood in some countries.

 

[barros]

It's actually a possible solution to all of these independence and seperatism issues. Would it really be a big issue for the large nation states to die? Even within England there have been major divides between north, southeast, southwest and west for as long as I can remember (and probably east, but who knows what the six-fingers marsh people actually think?).

The EU could be the solution to centuries of bad blood in some countries.

Europe enemies aren't UK, Spain, France or Germany anymore and we need a strong Europe but today we can count only with UK, we need to understand in the moment EU changed from an economic bloc to a political bloc that was the beginning of the end. We need a strong Spain - - and not a bunch of smaller states. We cannot have United States of Europe with dozens of languages and different cultures, and the northern europeans with a mentality the southern nations are very poor and people are lazy- well we do give a reason for that mentality

 

[PedroMendez]

So from today on the government assumes budgetary control to prevent the Catalan administration to spend money on the referendum.
@carvajal is rajoy going to use art 155 if everything else fails?

 

[barros]

So from today on the government assumes budgetary control to prevent the Catalan administration to spend money on the referendum.
@carvajal is rajoy going to use art 155 if everything else fails?

The Spanish government have to avoid any violence or the memories of Franco comes back and then would be too late, they shouldn't give too much importance to all this noise but trying to arrest the mayors aren't the best solution, anyway Espanol and Barcelona are more than welcome in the Portuguese league

 

[carvajal]

So from today on the government assumes budgetary control to prevent the Catalan administration to spend money on the referendum.
@carvajal is rajoy going to use art 155 if everything else fails?

Yes,especially now that the other political groups have showed support.
I see the 155 only if they manage to organize the referendum with enough participation ,declaring later independence,what the government is trying to avoid.
The problem with the article is that has never been used and there are a lot of doubts about how would work.
It has been named so much that has become a symbol of the final point,the total oppression,when according to the text the state can't disolve any organism or change the system of Autonomías (federal regions).
It's simply to take a momentary control,including the money,so maybe they budgetary control is a backdoor use of the article.
I think that there is a similar article in Germany.
So,since this article is too flashy the government did a law a year ago,called "Ley de Seguridad Nacional",which if I am not wrong is a light version of the 155.
I think It could be an option too.

 

[The Outsider]

Chaps, is Spain opposed totally to a referendum or is it the case that Spain wants to decide when Catalonia can have it?

 

[Raoul]

Message from newbie member @4bars who doesn't yet have access to the CE but wanted to contribute the following......

I do not have permission yet to write in Current Events that is why I asked Raoul if he could post that in this thread.

As I will not be able to answer you back guys, I will expose my opinion in an extense (very) post.

I will start saying I am a catalan independentist, so of course I am biased though I try to be rational about it. Starting then:

As Carvajal said, it all started with the statut in 2006. BUt the similarities with my point of view varies quite a lot. In 2006 The Socialitist Party (the national party oposed to Partido Popular) in coalition with leftist nationalist parties and the regional communist+greens they promoted the Statut with the promise of the President of Spain (Socialist party like the one in Catalonia) that the Statute that would come from the catalan parliament would be respected. Convergencia i Unio (the right bourgeois party was not in the catalan government so no, not 30 years of them). Catalan people voted in referendum the statute, catalan parliament voted as well and spanish parliament as well. Statue approved. As it had been in the history after the dictatorship, it was a matter of mutual negotiations between Spain and Catalonia that worked out well. Till the Partido Popular entered in the scene bringing the statute to the Constitutional Jury. Forbidding articles. Meanwhile, in other regions of Spain, they had (and still have, exactly some of the same artciles in their statute but nobody cares).

There, the status quo broke, and the Socialist catalan party (not born in catalonia, because we don't care which is the origin of the people) said: Careful with the disaffection of catalonia towards spain. In July 2010, it was a massive demonstration of more than a million to protest about the statute. All that under the socialist party rule, spanish national party, nothing about the catalan nationalist from the previous 6 years, no nationalist right wing....nothing. In that demonstration, we started to hear some chants about independence. I was there.

From them the PEOPLE, not the parties, organized rallies. Then, with the crisis, the first cultural based indepndentism added the economic disconformist with the situation, spurred by catalan politicians, blaming Spain for the economic situation to avoid their own blame in corruption and bad management. People swallowed and the independentism grew a lot. In 2012, now yes, Convergencia i Unio (CIU) the nationalist right-bourgeois party raised to power after 8 years gap of socialist. At that time Artur Mas, he was not about independentism, he still not indepndentist, just he had to jump the train because people wanted. CIU never wanted independentism. EVER. Maybe some base voters but mostly they where conservative that wanted the status quo with Madrid.

But from 2012 we organized 5 massive demonstrations in our national day with +1.000.000 to 2.500.000 depending on the year (total population 7.5 million) With that demonstrations, the catalan politicians had to jump the train. The Partido Popular continued not only ignoring that problem but insulting so any way to backtrack the problem became more and more difficult. Instead like the Scottish Referendum, London allow it and that is it. If in 2012, Madrid would allow it, the Yes would not happened. Carvajal said that the catalan government said that don't seek dialogue when it asked 83 times requirements to meet. For spanish government to set the rules for a pacted referendum...Nothing.

And now we reach this situation, Mas, image and representative of the past years of the catalan corruption and ambiguity, was forced to resign in the elections of 2015 by their coalition CUP (so called extremist or antisystem, but they are just leftist, but the left in spain is so at the right that is just a distortion), because they didn't want to go together with that opportunist and corrupt.

Partido Popular (heirs of the fascist dictator Franco, founded by one of their ministers), continued treating the problem with the worse "solutions" becoming a machine of independentists. And we reach a clash of trains.

Catalan government broke relationships with the spanish, created their own laws in case the catalan referendum goes "yes". The reaction of Madrid government is (not only a couple of printers intervined):

- more than a dozen of newspapers visited by the Military Police, Guardia Civil (GC)
-100.000 referendum posters sized
-1.700.000 referenudm propaganda pamflets and others sized
-webpages related with the referendum shut down, "asked" the main phone operators to not show the ones overseas
- 712 mayors of a bit more than 900 of the territory prosecuted
- President of Spain LITERALLY menaced 60.000 volunteers and ALL voters of being prosecuted because they are committing an illegal act
- Forbid any adds in newspapers and TV about the referendum
-Several printers interviened
-Shutting down meetings because they were gatherings of more than 20 people (newly gag law approved 3 years ago)
- shutting down symposiums in other cities in Spain, organized by spaniards just to discuss the situation.
- cutting electricity in other meetings gatherings
- Ballot boxes and ballots are hidden because the GC are looking for them
- Took control of the catalan government accounts
- etc...(I am just speaking by heart)

Inpendentism has some good reasons, Unionism has too. I found them completely respectful. I love spanish people, not so much spanish government (nor catalan), but of course, spanish people will not care that much of catalan problems because they have their own problems, so we can't expect anything about their representative (spanish government). We tried, and ask and ask and ask, for solutions, first fiscal ones, then for a consensual referendum....and nothing. So we go in our own.

Carvajal acuse us about brainwashing. Of course it is, like any other political viewing. If 10 years ago it was about 20% independentism, and now is 45-55% is because you did something wrong. If +1 - 2.5 million people goes to the street and you ignore them, is your problem.

What is happening the 1st of October is not only about independentism. Is about democracy. If what the spanish government is doing in the points mention before would be done in Saudi Arabia for a civil rights referendum, they would accuse them of repression and dictatorship. The ones that don't want the referendum, they shield in that is illegal. Well, not trying to compare AT ALL what I will say now with the catalan situation, is just the analogy of illegality. BUt Slavery was legal, divorce was illegal, homosexuality was illegal, woman suffrage was illegal...and the ones that agreed with it were saying "oh, but is illegal". Because is ok for them to impose through the law, not of what is just. And asking your people, even if you don't like the result, is the most just form to rule. Because you are a representative, not the people.

What I think it will happen is that spanish government will size ballot boxes and ballots on the 1st, and if necessary will use force. The catalan government said that it will declare the independence if it happens. It that happens, it will be more force. Catalonia will not be independence, that is a fact, but the indpeendentism will grow. where it will drive us? nobody knows.

Anyway, if you arrived here, thanks for hearing the rant, and sorry to not be able to answer as till 10 likes I can't write here. Sorry for my english.

A pleasure to read you all in the Current Events, my favorite forum. Carvajal as well, even if is from Real Madrid and we have a different political point of view

 

[carvajal]

@4bars I know about the Articles of the Statute, the truth is that it is named quite a few times, but I do not know what they are, and if they are so important for the future of all this.

That statute was a bit cheating and some considered that the only thing that would achieve is to increase the distances with Spain. That is why it was so insistent to include Catalonia as a nation as well as the subject of financing, the language, with an attack to spanish and articles (the 110) that wanted to give
"exclusive powers of the Generalitat in the legislative, executive and regulatory powers".
I don´t see why the Spanish State has the need to agree to a referendum. The British legislation is not the Spanish. The Spanish constitution was approved by the Catalans with 90% and there are no referendums. Besides the coalition doesn´t even have a majority in votes, but in "escaños".
Let's change the constitution and include that legislative option. What is happening these days is not a referendum, although some pretend it (printing false propaganda of the no). It is simply a confirmation of their ideas.
CUP are radical and antisystem

Soon they will end up being like Batasuna. On top of that, this is what has most disappointed me in all this

Spoiler

For those who do not know, in the middle is Arnaldo Otegi, who now intimate with Esquerra and CUP and makes an appearance in the acts of independence. He is even interviewed in catalan tv giving a certain reputation to his presence.
He was the head of the political apparatus of ETA, those who 30 years ago killed 21 people at Hipercor in Barcelona. That's why I say there's brainwashing.
The last thing they have done has been to point to the councilors who do not accept the ballot boxes(in Lleida), pointing them out in front of their neighbors.

Spoiler

but of course, later they will throw flowers to the guardia civil cars , to let us know how pacific they are, and as soon as the police touch someone, it will come the "spanish fascists opressing us".
The percentages of support change, but I don´t like that the tax issue is always named, and there are even those who dare to say that there are not enough competencies.
What was the percentage of support before the crisis?.
With Aznar and González they were very happy joining in coalitions to the government, but once the money´s tap stops you don´t want to be in Spain anymore?
I do not know what the situation is like in Cataluña, but for the rest of Spain it sounds like a joke that there are complaints about investment in Cataluña, both now and 30 years ago and both factories and infrastructure.
I admit that the central government has been wrong. They should have encouraged dialogue, increase the state presence in Cataluña and forget about this crossing of constant reproaches.
In that case it is possible to negotiate, as long as the other option does not exclusively seek more money, more freedom to use it and less solidarity with the rest of the regions, because those "charnegos", who are now treated as traitors, are those who raised the industrial fabric at the expense of other regions.
But then Pujol family steals 3.000 million euros during 20 years and nobody says anything.

Everything you name ( things that the government has done) has been based on stopping the referendum. If the referendum is invalid, they have to stop the promotion and the actions to celebrate it. There has been no detention for disobedience or sedition.

 

[Raoul]

@4bars I know about the Articles of the Statute, the truth is that it is named quite a few times, but I do not know what they are, and if they are so important for the future of all this.

That statute was a bit cheating and some considered that the only thing that would achieve is to increase the distances with Spain. That is why it was so insistent to include Catalonia as a nation as well as the subject of financing, the language, with an attack to spanish and articles (the 110) that wanted to give
"exclusive powers of the Generalitat in the legislative, executive and regulatory powers".
I don´t see why the Spanish State has the need to agree to a referendum. The British legislation is not the Spanish. The Spanish constitution was approved by the Catalans with 90% and there are no referendums. Besides the coalition doesn´t even have a majority in votes, but in "escaños".
Let's change the constitution and include that legislative option. What is happening these days is not a referendum, although some pretend it (printing false propaganda of the no). It is simply a confirmation of their ideas.
CUP are radical and antisystem

Soon they will end up being like Batasuna. On top of that, this is what has most disappointed me in all this

Spoiler

For those who do not know, in the middle is Arnaldo Otegi, who now intimate with Esquerra and CUP and makes an appearance in the acts of independence. He is even interviewed in catalan tv giving a certain reputation to his presence.
He was the head of the political apparatus of ETA, those who 30 years ago killed 21 people at Hipercor in Barcelona. That's why I say there's brainwashing.
The last thing they have done has been to point to the councilors who do not accept the ballot boxes(in Lleida), pointing them out in front of their neighbors.

Spoiler

but of course, later they will throw flowers to the guardia civil cars , to let us know how pacific they are, and as soon as the police touch someone, it will come the "spanish fascists opressing us".
The percentages of support change, but I don´t like that the tax issue is always named, and there are even those who dare to say that there are not enough competencies.
What was the percentage of support before the crisis?.
With Aznar and González they were very happy joining in coalitions to the government, but once the money´s tap stops you don´t want to be in Spain anymore?
I do not know what the situation is like in Cataluña, but for the rest of Spain it sounds like a joke that there are complaints about investment in Cataluña, both now and 30 years ago and both factories and infrastructure.
I admit that the central government has been wrong. They should have encouraged dialogue, increase the state presence in Cataluña and forget about this crossing of constant reproaches.
In that case it is possible to negotiate, as long as the other option does not exclusively seek more money, more freedom to use it and less solidarity with the rest of the regions, because those "charnegos", who are now treated as traitors, are those who raised the industrial fabric at the expense of other regions.
But then Pujol family steals 3.000 million euros during 20 years and nobody says anything.

Everything you name ( things that the government has done) has been based on stopping the referendum. If the referendum is invalid, they have to stop the promotion and the actions to celebrate it. There has been no detention for disobedience or sedition.

I Am sorry Carvajal, but there are so many things that I would rebate but I can't use Raoul every time I want to message in the thread.

Just last thing. For me is not about independence or not what they are doing. The spanish government not organizing a referendum, any kind and forbidding this is wrong. Not asking your people and repressing it when there is an obvious problem is repression and reminder that the transition and the dictatorship are not all gone.

 

[carvajal]

The transition has gone perfectly @4bars , and there are no longer dictators. I doubt that there are federal regions in the world as freely as Catalonia. To me it seems unfair and a betrayal. And I don´t doubt a bit about your feeling of being Catalan and the chances of developing your culture.
Cataluña is the engine of Spain but Spain also did a lot for Cataluña, with all the companies and financing. Only remember how Barna changed with the Olympics, and how much we all paid.
When you want you can write me a pm and we talk about the subject, but measure your words or I´ll report you to Guardia Civil

 

[barros]

@carvajal where are you from in Spain?

 

[carvajal]

@carvajal where are you from in Spain?

Galicia

 

[barros]

Galicia

And you are defending Castilla???

Kidding

 

[carvajal]

And you are defending Castilla???

Kidding

We are not in the XIII century anymore Barros (although my father is castilian)

 

[Avatar]

 

[FCBarca]

Not going to end well but I expected nothing less from the capital

 

[Rightnr]

This is going to make people more likely to go for independence. Imagine if the UK government tried this with the Scottish indy ref.

Politicians proving themselves stupid once again.

 

[jojojo]

The central government's response is pretty much incomprehensible. I don't see how it can do anything other than make the situation worse.

 

[Stanley Road]

If central govt wont recognise the result as all binding then whats the point of interfering? But, I guess its no surprise when you look at the crooks in power.

 

[Cheesy]

Seems like a mental response. Granting a referendum and promising for increased powers if they'd voted No would've made sense. They're almost making Cameron look competent in his approach to Scotland.

 

[Arruda]

Lots going on at the moment it seems. Thirteen from Catalan government arrested, funding halted, Guardia Civil with resting days suspended...

 

[VBI]

I'm surprised the EU isn't stepping in to at least have a word with the Spanish government. Their actions are disgusting.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

I have a question that may be stupid (and of topic) but do people in Catalonia speak to each other in Catalan or in Spanish? or in both? Surely, there's nobody there that can't speak Castelano no?

 

[Member 109952]

I see a better reason for Scotland to hold a referendum than Catalonia.

Scotland did have one very recently. All that's changed is us leaving the EU, but then the SNP lost a lot of votes and seats in the last general election which would indicate that they didn't agree with the SNP's push for a 2nd referendum.

I'm not a big fan btw to splitting countries or Unions like the UK and Spain that have shared cultural similarities. Scotland and Catalonia would be fine outside the UK/Spain but I just think there's benefits from being together and united in a larger country. I'm all for granting referendums as it's democratic (every 10-15 years imo, no point having one and then asking for another right after..), and I'm glad the Scots chose to stay. No idea why the Spanish government's taking such a hard stance and resorting to arresting Catalan officials, imo all that'll do is galvanise even more support to the independence cause. I read that the support for independence was aroun 42%, so why not just have the vote and offer concessions to stay like the UK did? This will just breed more division.

 

[barros]

would be funny if Barcelona wins the next 10 seasons

 

[Revan]

Madrid are being idiots on this. If some blood is shed, then it will be game over and no turning point.

They are being as diplomatic as Donald Trump.

 

[Akshay]

The transition has gone perfectly @4bars , and there are no longer dictators. I doubt that there are federal regions in the world as freely as Catalonia. To me it seems unfair and a betrayal. And I don´t doubt a bit about your feeling of being Catalan and the chances of developing your culture.
Cataluña is the engine of Spain but Spain also did a lot for Cataluña, with all the companies and financing. Only remember how Barna changed with the Olympics, and how much we all paid.
When you want you can write me a pm and we talk about the subject, but measure your words or I´ll report you to Guardia Civil

The transition from a Dictatorship only went well from one side, from the fascists. The crimes that they commited were never punished, There is still many streets and statues of Franco in Spain (equivalency of Hitler street and his face around in Germany). They don't call him Dictator but "chieftain" in history books and references. Partido Popular do not condemn what he did. Franco's heirs still retains the properties that he expropiated. The PRIVATE fundation "Fundation memoria Francisco Franco" receive yearly one of the biggest amounts of money from the Spanish memory. etc...

But that is not the worst. Constitution of 1978, was a pact with the fascist forces and the new democratic parties, so it reach halfway the democracy. Some of the restrictive articles are exactly the same as the organic laws during the dicatorship. We change the head of state for the King and the police, army and others remained the same.

Catalonia has very good autonomy (I think you refer of that for "free") in some parts and not so in others. That in theory. In reality, Spain has a very centralist government that questions and fights anything from the autonomies. Specially catalonia, and specially Partido Popular. That's what happened with the estatut 2006, that we wanted to go forward with the established status quo like it worked since the transition but Partido Popular (and PSOE) broke that agreement that we had during the democracy. Not only did not go forward, but backwards the estatut was crippled and they questioned the current one. That was the true unfairness and betrayal. That's what broked the statuts quo and Partido Popular did it because the socialist won for the first time in Catalonia and it was a way to supress the votes as they accomplished.

FOr me, my reasons are not economic. Don't care much who did more for who (though I think i have an idea). People from spain always say about olimpics (1992) so we have to keep going after 25 years? 1 one year of the difference of what we bring in the common box and we receive would have it pay, so no, I dont buy it. Madrid tried 3 years and couldnt get it but they spend 80% of the budget for nothing (and who paid for that). Sorry but no. Catalonia is underfunded (specially compared to madrid) and crippled with the aiport management (passing flights through barajas mandatorely) and others. Since then 25 km of motorway in Barcelona, more than 800 in Madrid. Not to speak the radial system of the High speed train or the Mediterranian corridor that despite the UE saying it has to be coastal you pass it through Madrid, or that 90% of the dock operations are made in Madrid (at 500 Km from the coast) and etc...I have loads of this kind of information of the crippling of Catalonia. But as I said, even if I think we have economic (and specially centralistic managment) is not my main reason because I considered selfish.

But as I said it is cultural reasons. When in 2011, the minister of education said "we need to make catalan kids more spanish" referering that they are not spanish enough because they speak catalan. When 99% population knows spanish, but not t everybody knows catalan and they over and over meddle in our education system voted for us as we want them for our people. When over an over you hear lies about how we forbid spanish when we live it as a normality. When being spanish means for the spanish government (not spaniards) speaking spanish, dance flamenco, bullfighting and eat paella....if not you are not that much spanish. That macho attitude that comes from the dictatorship and from the old empire.

Unamuno, the spanish writer said it in 1907: ”Merecemos perder Cataluña. Esa cochina prensa madrileña está haciendo la misma labor que con Cuba. No se entera. Es la bárbara mentalidad castellana, su cerebro cojonudo (tiene testículos en vez de seso)."

Translated (sort of) "We deserve to lose Catalonia. This nasty press from Madrid is doing the same job like in Cuba (lost by Spain 9 years before). They don't get it. Is the same barbaric Castillian mentallity. His big balls mentality (Balls instead of brains)".

And it keeps happening like it happened yesterday. Even the Telegraph said "Franco lives again"

What it happened yesterday....I have so many things to say that I have no words. Guardia Civil having go pro to pic violent images, provoking. Going to CUP headquarters without a warrent just to bring tension and provoke a bad reaction that they did not get. People marching peacefully. Mariano Rajoy menacing to go to next level.

Is plainly wrong, repressive, there is no way back, independence or not, referendum or not, the relationship between Spain and Catalonia is broken and is 1 government against catalan people, not spanish government against catalan government, because it is us who are asking for and the government jumped the wagon. The ghost of the dictatorship flew over Catalonia yesterday

 

[KM]

@4bars is now promoted. He can post his replies on his own here!

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Uncorroborated off facebook, but I've been reading that lots of local government officials have been placed under house arrest effectively as terrorists?

 

[Kentonio]

I can't tell which is more fascinating, learning loads of interesting stuff about Spain and Catalonia, or wondering how long the admins will put up with forwarding 4bars messages before they just give in and promote him.

*Edit* feck, KM'd..

 

[carvajal]

"The transition from a Dictatorship only went well from one side, from the fascists. The crimes that they commited were never punished, There is still many streets and statues of Franco in Spain (equivalency of Hitler street and his face around in Germany). They don't call him Dictator but "chieftain" in history books and references. Partido Popular do not condemn what he did. Franco's heirs still retains the properties that he expropiated. The PRIVATE fundation "Fundation memoria Francisco Franco" receive yearly one of the biggest amounts of money from the Spanish memory. etc...

But that is not the worst. Constitution of 1978, was a pact with the fascist forces and the new democratic parties, so it reach halfway the democracy. Some of the restrictive articles are exactly the same as the organic laws during the dicatorship. We change the head of state for the King and the police, army and others remained the same."
Why do you bring Franco to the table. You know perfectly well that many streets with generals and Franco official have been changed. Partido Popular condemned it in 2002. Besides Franco will leave el valle de los caídos.
"FOr me, my reasons are not economic. Don't care much who did more for who (though I think i have an idea). People from spain always say about olimpics (1992) so we have to keep going after 25 years? 1 one year of the difference of what we bring in the common box and we receive would have it pay, so no, I dont buy it. Madrid tried 3 years and couldnt get it but they spend 80% of the budget for nothing (and who paid for that). Sorry but no. Catalonia is underfunded (specially compared to madrid) and crippled with the aiport management (passing flights through barajas mandatorely) and others. Since then 25 km of motorway in Barcelona, more than 800 in Madrid. Not to speak the radial system of the High speed train or the Mediterranian corridor that despite the UE saying it has to be coastal you pass it through Madrid, or that 90% of the dock operations are made in Madrid (at 500 Km from the coast) and etc...I have loads of this kind of information of the crippling of Catalonia. But as I said, even if I think we have economic (and specially centralistic managment) is not my main reason because I considered selfish."

The amounts that the catalan parties have talked are totally false and exaggerated. Even Borrell showed to Junqueras in Tv some days ago.
I find understandable a radial system with a high speed train to Madrid, anyway I know the AVE only for tv, as in Asturias or Extremadura. You should name the huge debt of Cataluña, that all have to pay, among other things for the corruption that its seems only comes from la meseta or the Catalan "embassies" abroad although I admit the part of the motorways.
Some days ago I was talking in twitter with a major from a small town in Girona and he told that motorways and road were his main reason for independence , something like the millions of British NHS. As soon as you get rid of us you will be a super power.

"But as I said it is cultural reasons. When in 2011, the minister of education said "we need to make catalan kids more spanish" referering that they are not spanish enough because they speak catalan. When 99% population knows spanish, but not t everybody knows catalan and they over and over meddle in our education system voted for us as we want them for our people. When over an over you hear lies about how we forbid spanish when we live it as a normality. When being spanish means for the spanish government (not spaniards) speaking spanish, dance flamenco, bullfighting and eat paella....if not you are not that much spanish. That macho attitude that comes from the dictatorship and from the old empire."
The argument of not feeling identified with the stereotype is very banal, although then you fill each tourist city with figures of bulls and Sevillanas and restaurants of paella.
About the language, can you tell me how many subjects you had in Catalan and how many in Spanish? in kindergarten, school or high school?. At least nowadays in Galicia all public documents come in both languages and half of the subjects come in Galician, and I am quite sure that you are much more radical in that matter.
"And it keeps happening like it happened yesterday. Even the Telegraph said "Franco lives again"

What it happened yesterday....I have so many things to say that I have no words. Guardia Civil having go pro to pic violent images, provoking. Going to CUP headquarters without a warrent just to bring tension and provoke a bad reaction that they did not get. People marching peacefully. Mariano Rajoy menacing to go to next level.

Is plainly wrong, repressive, there is no way back, independence or not, referendum or not, the relationship between Spain and Catalonia is broken and is 1 government against catalan people, not spanish government against catalan government, because it is us who are asking for and the government jumped the wagon. The ghost of the dictatorship flew over Catalonia yesterday "
And a few days ago the Financial Times was quite critical of the process, despite Puigdemont's attempts to get them into this mess. And if I'm not mistaken The Economist wrote that was time to stop all this, and that you would be happy with a fiscal agreement (what a surprise) and more autonomy.
Personally I would not give you more autonomy. As we say in Spanish, we gave you a hand and you took the whole arm.
What happened yesterday:
0 arrested for his political opinions
0 arrested for marching in the streets or provoking the police
14 arrested for secesion.
Besides a group of guardia civiles were hold in a public building for hours since the catalan police didn´t colaborate. You know well Trapero´s intentions. I didn´t see Guardia Civil provoking but this :

Spoiler

Spoiler

As I told you you were waiting to see a Guardia Civil to start talking about repression.
They also "visited" the local of Rivera´s parents.
And what you said about Guardia Civil with a go pro and illegal registration ... Especially seeing the treatment they received. In any case there are legal proceedings that allow them to act in case of obvious evidences of Crime.
By the way, the arrests were ordered by Cataluña attorney, for an investigation from past february, when someone from your government admitted publicly some illegal actions.

 

[carvajal]

The government has sent a reinforcement of 4000 police to Barcelona, and since there are problems of accommodation they have rented three cruises where the police will stay a couple of weeks. This is the great idea that they had at the moment of renting

 

[4bars]

First of all thanks for the full membership

You will regret, I am a pester and I never give up in discussions

Is hammer time!

Why do you bring Franco to the table. You know perfectly well that many streets with generals and Franco official have been changed. Partido Popular condemned it in 2002. Besides Franco will leave el valle de los caídos.

Why I keep talking about Franco? Basically because his will is still in the institutions and the Constitution and the oligarchy in Spain is formed by the heirs of his friends families that rules the country and we have that result.

In Spain, till now it had been only silence about the dictatorship, we never when through a good reviewing to heal the past and the fracture that still there.

The amounts that the catalan parties have talked are totally false and exaggerated. Even Borrell showed to Junqueras in Tv some days ago.

The amounts are there and if the government do not want to give transparency is for a reason

I find understandable a radial system with a high speed train to Madrid, anyway I know the AVE only for tv, as in Asturias or Extremadura. You should name the huge debt of Cataluña, that all have to pay, among other things for the corruption that its seems only comes from la meseta or the Catalan "embassies" abroad although I admit the part of the motorways.
Some days ago I was talking in twitter with a major from a small town in Girona and he told that motorways and road were his main reason for independence , something like the millions of British NHS. As soon as you get rid of us you will be a super power.

Aha, you find normal that there are town of 60.000 with a specific AVE line with 10 people a day average but Barcelona and Valencia 2nd and 3rd biggest cities are not connected? what is Madrid afraid of? Pr Seville and Valencia? or Barcelona and Euskadi?

Why most of the continental flights has to pass through Madrid? Though Barcelona has almost the same passangers lately (last month only 7.900 passangers less and counting that Madrid has the layovers to Barcelona) The HUB in Germany is in Frankfurt for example.

Eveybody has there own reasons for independence. Some can be very banal, some are about feelings, some are based in their needs.

I am not as stupid to believe that catalonia, instead of donkeys we will automatically have unicorns that shits rainbows, and what we will win from one side, we will lose it from the other. But as you can understand, I will not be responsible of the stupidity of other independentist as other smarter than me they will not be responsible of my stupidity. Unfortunately, in a big amount of people that forms a society, there are stupids being catalans or spanish, independentist or not.

The argument of not feeling identified with the stereotype is very banal, although then you fill each tourist city with figures of bulls and Sevillanas and restaurants of paella.
About the language, can you tell me how many subjects you had in Catalan and how many in Spanish? in kindergarten, school or high school?. At least nowadays in Galicia all public documents come in both languages and half of the subjects come in Galician, and I am quite sure that you are much more radical in that matter.

That's why I remarked Spanish government (not spaniards). Because the problem is not stereotypes. The problem is than since 300 years ago, my culture was crippled and my language forbidded till the begining of the democracy. My dad is going to school to learn how to write well his own language. After 30 years of "democracy", we could sort of manage our education system that was the only way to inmerse the newcommers in our country. A well praise system that after crippling the Estatute of 2006, it openend the door to attack the system that was in place since the begining.

Is not not being identified with the stereotypes, I could ignore them well if the government would not make the impossible to impose them via crippling our education system, overturning the prohibition of bullfighting that we decided in 2012 (?) and well, we love art and food, we are ok with flamenco and sevillanas. I just only hope that now they will not make us eat it everyday and listen non stop Camaron .

I can tell you the subjects yes.

Also I can tell you that in uni, just for one student that wanted spanish and 100 in catalan, we did it in spanish. I can tell you that there are 2 and a half TV chanels in catalan and dozens in spanish (without counting internationals), 3 main newspapers in catalonia in catalan, aaaallll the rest in spanish,

I can tell you that there are people that had been 40 years in catalonia and they complain that moroccans and others they don't bother to learn spanish....when they do not speak a word in catalan. The presence of Spanish is huge, there is no problem with that language in Catalonia. With 5 years old I was fully billingual (and I am from a very catalanist town where I have 2/3 conversations in spanish per month) and the president of Spain only knows spanish.

99,9% in catalonia knows spanish, and I love it and I want that for future generations, actually is one of the few things that came good from the past regimes, but catalan is receding because frrankly, a newcomer does not feel the need to learn it and I don't blame them. They will learn spanish yes or yes. School is the only way for us to mantain the language. Spanish will never be lost and I am glad of it, but of course, I want my culture to be preserved and for that is important to give the tools to the people that comes.

And a few days ago the Financial Times was quite critical of the process, despite Puigdemont's attempts to get them into this mess. And if I'm not mistaken The Economist wrote that was time to stop all this, and that you would be happy with a fiscal agreement (what a surprise) and more autonomy.
Personally I would not give you more autonomy. As we say in Spanish, we gave you a hand and you took the whole arm.

Yes, The main stream media is always at the side of the status quo, no news here and I can't blame them, they are preserving the economic oligarchy of US and EU (and members within). That's why is so surprising what the Guardian said, or Le Monde (not precisely proaventures) or the frankfurt Allemange that they are starting to speak about repression.

You did not give us anything and you took the hold body without even ask. That is my opinion...Or Voltaire's opinion that among several things he said (Let me be cocky please):

Cataluña es uno de los países más fértiles de la tierra y de los mejor situados. Regada

por hermosos ríos, arroyos y fuentes, tanto como la vieja y la nueva Castilla están

privadas de ellos, produce todo lo indispensable para las necesidades del hombre y todo

lo que puede halagar sus deseos: árboles, granos, frutos y legumbres de todas clases.

Barcelona es uno de los más hermosos puertos de Europa, y el país proporciona todo lo

nece sario para la construcción de los navíos. Sus montañas están llenas de canteras de

mármol, de jaspe, de cristal de roca, y hasta se encuentrar también muchas piedras

preciosas. Las minas de hierro, de estaño, dt plomo, de alumbre, de sulfatos son

abundantes; la costa oriental product coral. Cataluña, en fin, puede prescindir del

universo entero, y sus veci nos no pueden prescindir de ella.


TRANSLATION LAST PART: Catalonia, in the end, can live without the entire universe but his neighbours can't live without her

What happened yesterday:
0 arrested for his political opinions
0 arrested for marching in the streets or provoking the police
14 arrested for secesion.
Besides a group of guardia civiles were hold in a public building for hours since the catalan police didn´t colaborate. You know well Trapero´s intentions. I didn´t see
Guardia Civil provoking but this :

As I told you you were waiting to see a Guardia Civil to start talking about repression.
They also "visited" the local of Rivera´s parents.
And what you said about Guardia Civil with a go pro and illegal registration ... Especially seeing the treatment they received. In any case there are legal proceedings that allow them to act in case of obvious evidences of Crime.
By the way, the arrests were ordered by Cataluña attorney, for an investigation from past february, when someone from your government admitted publicly some illegal actions.

Oh yes, we where waiting for that. Is like saying to the blackamericans: " oh, you were waiting for a police to kill an unarmed blackamerican to call them racists"

Is what happen when the Guardia Civil goes without warranty to some places to provoke, they are asked to meet the lawyer team and they refuse and they stand still to make the situation tense. Is 1.0.1. in demonstration where you look to provoke and you know that this happens. Lately several Guardia Civil had been spotted walking around without uniforms with the independence flags to mingle and do, as they did MANY TIMES in other demonstrations, not only independentist, to provoke disturbs to desligitmize the demonstration itself. Hell, there is a video of the police (don't know which, Mossos, GC, police) that had to be rescued because people realized and sorrounded them. Or another of telling them the uniformed one: "DOn't hit us, we are police .

That's why they have the gopro, don't come to me with the integrity of GC and the spanish government

Don't come with me with poor GC, they use dirty tactics, they come to stop a referendum with a force never seen. Why they never went this way with ETA? or with the corruption in Catalonia and Spain? it was/is more illegal and dangerous than a referendum.

I repeat, if voting would matter, would be forbid it, that is why this is happening.

 

[barros]

I’m learning a lot lately, as a Portuguese we always thought Spain had problem with the basques not with other provinces. Well we have a say in Portugal (something like this) “From Spain, neither good wind nor good marriage” not sure about the wind but for at least 2 times our asshole kings married a fecking Spanish princess to: implement the inquisition and lose the independence when the king died and his idiotic 16 year old son goes to a war with the moors to die.

 

[FCBarca]

Few truly appreciate how reprehensible Spanish govt is

 

[4bars]

The winds it has something for the actual winds. When you receive winds coming from Spain, in winter are colder than usual and in summer dryer. And yes, the marriage and so, we still paying for the marriage with the castillian queen.

Spain is a Nation of nations, There is independentism big or small in many regions. Catalonia and Basque had been always the ones that went for it. Basque were more famous internationally because they had a terrorist group, but catalonia was always active. Actually we declared 2 mild independence in the 1930's for 3 days, they bomb us. Previous Civil war. SOme of the fascists blamed us for the Civil war, obviously not true, was for comunism.

Then you have Galicia, with their own language. Canary Island had their own terrorist group. Even Andalucia they have their own very small. Actually I think nobody likes to be spanish somehow


Anyway, I must say I love spanish people, dated 1 for 6 years, several friends....and I am sure that speaking we could make a beautiful and diverse federation. But unfortunately, there are to many stupid people that votes the government that we have that they are still stuck in the old "glory" of Spain and the authoritarian rule of the dictatorship

 

[carvajal]

I’m learning a lot lately, as a Portuguese we always thought Spain had problem with the basques not with other provinces. Well we have a say in Portugal (something like this) “From Spain, neither good wind nor good marriage” not sure about the wind but for at least 2 times our asshole kings married a fecking Spanish princess to: implement the inquisition and lose the independence when the king died and his idiotic 16 year old son goes to a war with the moors to die.

Cristiano will be very happy with Georgina

 

[Arruda]

I quite like the outgoing nature of a lot of Spaniards. Don't go there often, but when I go I always have fun. Last time I was at Vicente Calderón in a Paul McCartney concert and it was awesome how everyone around me was willing to make small talk about anything. After a while even I was comfortably making conversation up with strangers.

 

[4bars]

I quite like the outgoing nature of a lot of Spaniards. Don't go there often, but when I go I always have fun. Last time I was at Vicente Calderón in a Paul McCartney concert and it was awesome how everyone around me was willing to make small talk about anything. After a while even I was comfortably making conversation up with strangers.

Yes, spain is awesome in that sense. The problem is that outgoing and easy going and fun, etc....character, makes that we don't ask for accountability to our politician, we swallow and swallow (no pun intended) all the cases of corruption, 20% unemployment, stupid decisions from our politicians (spanish and catalan) and is when we have a fecked country to live but awesome to party, that is why you guys have so much fun, good weather, good food, nice poeple that has no job so they chat with you .

But here I am, lived in 8 countries and I am currently in Canada having a better life and missing home