Can we stop complaining until we see an actual ETH XI?

[RedOrange]

No, but is that really a fair comparison to make? I am all for giving managers time, but i dont think its unreasonable to expect to see improvements either, espcially considering the handsome amount of money hes been allowed. Im not saying we should sack him now, that would be mental, but its been a utterly dreadful start to the season and if this rotten form persists he will be gone by Christmas.

He did a good job at Ajax, but at the end of the day its pretty meaningless. Its the job he does here that counts

Improvements to what? Results? Style of play? Manchester United haven't had a world class squad in over a decade. This isn't taking over Real or Barca in the mid 2010's, we're building a squad almost from scratch, starting last summer. Despite not publicly announcing it, that's what's happening.

1st season 11th (partial)
2nd season 2nd
3rd season 11th
4th season 13th
5th season 6th
6th season 2nd
7th season 1st

That's SAF's first 7 seasons' results as manager of United. The preceding 5 seasons saw the team finish 3rd or 4th. His results in the first 4 years alone would have gotten 3 separate managers sacked these days (and plenty of united fans were screaming for it at the time). Was it the wrong decision to let Fergie keep his job? He did well in Scotland, but according to you that should have been meaningless. Was it wrong for Arsenal not to sack Arteta after 2019-20 when he finished 8th again?

Fundamentally, the argument for sacking ten Hag (or any manager, really) this early is premised on the notion that if a manager is going to push the club out of the 2nd tier of PL clubs into the 1st tier, it has to happen within the first 15 months or so or it never will. I think that premise is utterly false, and that a lot of fans vastly overestimate their footballing knowledge thinking they can predict 3 years into the future.

 

[Cheesy]

Improvements to what? Results? Style of play? Manchester United haven't had a world class squad in over a decade. This isn't taking over Real or Barca in the mid 2010's, we're building a squad almost from scratch, starting last summer. Despite not publicly announcing it, that's what's happening.

1st season 11th (partial)
2nd season 2nd
3rd season 11th
4th season 13th
5th season 6th
6th season 2nd
7th season 1st

That's SAF's first 7 seasons' results as manager of United. The preceding 5 seasons saw the team finish 3rd or 4th. His results in the first 4 years alone would have gotten 3 separate managers sacked these days (and plenty of united fans were screaming for it at the time). Was it the wrong decision to let Fergie keep his job? He did well in Scotland, but according to you that should have been meaningless. Was it wrong for Arsenal not to sack Arteta after 2019-20 when he finished 8th again?

Fundamentally, the argument for sacking ten Hag (or any manager, really) this early is premised on the notion that if a manager is going to push the club out of the 2nd tier of PL clubs into the 1st tier, it has to happen within the first 15 months or so or it never will. I think that premise is utterly false, and that a lot of fans vastly overestimate their footballing knowledge thinking they can predict 3 years into the future.

This is trotted out a lot (has been the case for years) but the reality is that most managers who have a disappointing first couple of seasons inevitably don't go on to become the most successful managers football has ever been - indeed most just end up sacked later than they probably should have been.

ETH should probably be given the season, because the mess the club's in is far from being entirely or perhaps even mostly of his making, and the club is unlikely to find an inspired candidate midway through September, but he's ultimately still the manager of one of world football's biggest clubs with huge resources at his disposal. If United are sitting mid-table in three months time then it'll be entirely fair for fans to ask questions of whether he's worth keeping or not.

 

[SER19]

Thats a good video. Don't see how anybody could possibly watch it and blame the manager. Its also hard to watch it and not break your screen in frustration. Absolutely abysmal effort all round, with rashford and mctominay so bad they should be dropped off the back of an amateur tacticians interpretation.

How do you fix it? How to you get fundamentally lazy players in key roles to not be lazy?

 

[ClassOf'99]

Antijogchester United

Garnacho Hojlund Antony
Bruno
Casameiro Amrabat
Shaw (again yeah) Martinez Varane AWB

This is as close as we're getting to the OPs question.

It's not about the money spent it's about the players attitudes. Our core team above will press and play how EtH wants, it's just the 2 wingers that are a concern for quality (Nacho is still young so I'm not criticising him, Antony has to improve massively to match his work rate). And whether Shaw can be arsed but Reguilon looks keen to press.

I'm still being patient with EtH but I've lost all patience with certain players,
McTominay should never play for us again,
Lindelof is spineless,
Maguire is as useful as a cone in the box,
Eriksen has lost all mobility,
Sancho's attitude is stinking up the place,
Rashford needs to buck up his ideas and start playing for the team, I thought we got rid of the walking and sulking with Ronaldo.

Its funny to me that a majority of our problem players are of the British contingent, I wonder if that's the clique Ronaldo spoke of, as we've only ousted Lingard and Henderson from that group.

 

[SungSam7]

What's an ETH XI? The thought that a manager should be able to buy an entire new squad is absolutely absurd and has been hugely damaging to the club in terms of throwing grotesque amounts of money out of the window when a new manager comes in and discards all the signings of his predecessor. ETH has brought in plenty of his own players (in fact too many of his own players) and should have been expected to have them playing better football by now.

How is it absurd? Didn't Pep do this or Klopp? Don't think any manager in the world wanting to win things would be happy to have the likes of Fred, McT, Harry Maguire or Lindlof as potential replacements for injuries.

 

[Idxomer]

No, but I would love for him to have a fit XI first.

 

[RedOrange]

This is trotted out a lot (has been the case for years) but the reality is that most managers who have a disappointing first couple of seasons inevitably don't go on to become the most successful managers football has ever been - indeed most just end up sacked later than they probably should have been.

So SAF should have been sacked in '89 then?

 

[Marwood]

I see both sides of this thread so far. But forget this whole "his XI" stuff. He's only been able to start a half decent striker once in his whole time here. That's pretty damning and also enough for me to give him time.

Yeah totally agree. A manager at least has to have a striker before being judged. Crazy he's gone this long without one.

 

[Cheesy]

So SAF should have been sacked in '89 then?

No, because he went on to be immensely successful. Had we not been though, the club may have looked back on that decision to show faith and regretted it though. My point is keeping a manager because they might end up doing well isn't a zero sum game - sometimes you miss out on getting a better coach who'll actually deliver results in the process. There are far more examples of the latter in the modern game than bosses like SAF who are shown faith and end up doing amazingly well.

 

[Roboc7]

Thats a good video. Don't see how anybody could possibly watch it and blame the manager. Its also hard to watch it and not break your screen in frustration. Absolutely abysmal effort all round, with rashford and mctominay so bad they should be dropped off the back of an amateur tacticians interpretation.

How do you fix it? How to you get fundamentally lazy players in key roles to not be lazy?

There has to be consequences for laziness, you are right people should be dropped but they won’t be. They’ll play tomorrow and they can repeat those effort levels time and time again and still play. Even a player as ordinary as Mctominay can be lazy and never suffer consequences.

You look at Pep, Klopp and even Arteta now, if players don’t buy in to what the manager wants then you don’t play and if you still don’t you get sold. Their clubs support them to do that. That doesn’t happen at Utd, you get chance after chance, there is no accountability and the club don’t really want to have to sell players and replace them. All the players know it and it gets reflected on the pitch.

 

[RedOrange]

No, because he went on to be immensely successful. Had we not been though, the club may have looked back on that decision to show faith and regretted it though. My point is keeping a manager because they might end up doing well isn't a zero sum game - sometimes you miss out on getting a better coach who'll actually deliver results in the process. There are far more examples of the latter in the modern game than bosses like SAF who are shown faith and end up doing amazingly well.

Let me put it this way. You're saying that having faith in a manager and giving him time isn't a sufficient condition for finding a great manager and building a title contender. I don't disagree. What I'm saying is that having faith and giving a manager time is a necessary condition for finding a great manager and building a title contender. It's not a guarantee, but you sort of have to do it if that's the result you want.

 

[The United]

That's a fantastic video, Adam at Four Four Two has been knocking it out of the park with his analysis of us this season, he seems to understand how we're trying to play.

As for the content of the video, it makes for depressing watching, it's a combination of there being too many passengers, and a lot of our players' instincts being to back off (as they did for years under Mou and Ole).

While I don't think a full ETH XI is something we can expect, nor should it be necessary, but we do need a few more who understand the intensity required, which will lead to others hopefully feeling more positive about it, or at worst having to step up if they want to play.

I mean how many Ole's or even Jose's players left in that team? It's very convenient to blame on the past managers.

 

[lex talionis]

It's hard to be sure what the OP demands from the rest of us. Sure, there's a kneejerk thread on whether ETH should be sacked already, which is absurd, but on the whole the criticism of ETH here is within reasonable boundaries. His squad selection and tactics v Brighton were disastrous and his summer transfer business is subject to responsible criticism. And even the two wins that keep out of out of the relegation zone were by the skin of our proverbial teeth over relegation fodder, so it's not as though there's that much of a bright side to hang one's hat on in terms of the performance of the manager so far this season. Not the manager alone, without question, as key players have underperformed, but it's the manager's job to prepare the players for matchdays and even the most ardent supporter of ETH here would have to acknowledge that when the first whistle is blown the players look anything but prepared for the ensuing 90 minutes.

 

[KjaAnd]

No, he has been given enough money and time to expect better than what the team is serving up at the moment. It's not like De Zerbi or Ange have been allowed to build new squads from scratch - yet, there's visible improvement in their team's style of play and results.

 

[Amir]

How is it absurd? Didn't Pep do this or Klopp? Don't think any manager in the world wanting to win things would be happy to have the likes of Fred, McT, Harry Maguire or Lindlof as potential replacements for injuries.

Pep won his first title in England with sevaral important players he inherited. Granted, he walked into a very strong team - who were champions a year before he arrived - but he didn't need to replace an entire team in order to play his football.

 

[The Hilton]

I mean how many Ole's or even Jose's players left in that team? It's very convenient to blame on the past managers.

Involved against Brighton was...

Lindelof
AWB*
Dalot
Bruno
McTominay
Rashford
Martial*

* means came on as a sub.

So that's half the players used, or almost half of the starting line up. When you add to that we also had to start Eriksen, who really was a stopgap signing on a free due to lack of funds, and Reguilon, who is an emergency loan signing, there's no way you can honestly look at the team we put out and call it an ETH team.

Just have a look at the video in the OP (and the same folks did a great video about the Spurs game too), and you'll see what Ten Hag is trying to do, but is being let down by a lack of commitment from some players, and poor decision making from a lot too. A really interesting snippet from that video is that we rank 1st in the league for high turnovers (winning the ball in advanced positions), but we're bottom for high turnovers leading to a goal - we keep winning the ball high, and then wasting the opportunities we create.

 

[The United]

Involved against Brighton was...

Lindelof
AWB*
Dalot
Bruno
McTominay
Rashford
Martial*

* means came on as a sub.

So that's half the players used, or almost half of the starting line up. When you add to that we also had to start Eriksen, who really was a stopgap signing on a free due to lack of funds, and Reguilon, who is an emergency loan signing, there's no way you can honestly look at the team we put out and call it an ETH team.

Just have a look at the video in the OP (and the same folks did a great video about the Spurs game too), and you'll see what Ten Hag is trying to do, but is being let down by a lack of commitment from some players, and poor decision making from a lot too. A really interesting snippet from that video is that we rank 1st in the league for high turnovers (winning the ball in advanced positions), but we're bottom for high turnovers leading to a goal - we keep winning the ball high, and then wasting the opportunities we create.

Dalot hardly played under Ole. Putting blame on subs is reaching a bit far for your point. Tommy was supposed to be sold and no one asked ETH to play him there. Lindelof is a CB and Martinez is the one who plays in a aggressive role. That left with Bruno and Rashford. Bruno can't be blamed for being too passive.

ETH will have 'his team' in a few years if he proves that he can actually coach and improve what we have to some decent level between now and then. If he can't, not much point waiting for it, is there?

 

[RedDevil@84]

I see a lot of posts on here moaning that we don't have an identity and our tactics are all over the place. I've never agreed, but I couldn't quite put it into words.

I really 'enjoyed' this video, which made it pretty simple for me; the tactics are working, our players aren't. WHAT A SURPRISE.

We've been plagued for years with:

1. Players who don't want to play certain systems, so tick the box and let them fail.
2. Players who understand the system, try, but who can't execute.
3. Players who just suck.

Let's be clear, we have had some incredible, proven in almost every major league, deeply experienced managers. But we've maintained a core of players who fit the above.

ETH has transformed the squad more than any other manager, but right now has to rely on the same old gunk he was laboured with.

Once I see an ETH first XI, then I'll judge, but with a fit squad I just don't see half of these players getting game time under him, because he'll start to cut them out.

Can we consider all players signed/extended in last season as part of ETH XI?

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

The players are responsible here of course. But Ten Hag is also. It's his job to get the most out of the players on the pitch and it's not happening.

 

[The Hilton]

Dalot hardly played under Ole. Putting blame on subs is reaching a bit far for your point. Tommy was supposed to be sold and no one asked ETH to play him there. Lindelof is a CB and Martinez is the one who plays in a aggressive role. That left with Bruno and Rashford. Bruno can't be blamed for being too passive.

ETH will have 'his team' in a few years if he proves that he can actually coach and improve what we have to some decent level between now and then. If he can't, not much point waiting for it, is there?

Right so Mou and Ole players only actually count as Mou and Ole players, rather than ETH players, if they meet some arbitrary set of criteria you made up? Reaching a bit far for your point would apply in reverse too it seems.

Either way, there's no way you can reasonably suggest that our lineup against Brighton was a real Ten Hag team, it was very makeshift.

ETH already showed he can be pragmatic last season, when he did a very good job considering where we started. The problem is that we can't just stay playing that way if we want to move forward, and taking steps forward will lead to teething problems, especially as for a lot of players (including our best ones) it's a new and clearly challenging setup to learn.

 

[pocco]

How do you know when the tactics are working but the players aren't? How can you possibly know that the tactics are working in that case. Especially after some of the performances we've seen, not just this season but last too. The first one that comes to mind is that humbling from Sevilla who were lower down the league in La Liga. They completely changed how they approached the game in the second leg and we had no answer.

I could go through a list of examples. But the main reason I know they're not working is from watching the games. In not blowing my own trumpet or anything because I suspect everybody could see it, but against Brighton I recognised within the first half what they were doing to completely nullify us. But I have to question how even I can see this and yet for another 70 minutes or so, Ten Hag had no answer. And it would be easily recognisable from the shape of the team and the changes that were being made.

 

[The United]

Right so Mou and Ole players only actually count as Mou and Ole players, rather than ETH players, if they meet some arbitrary set of criteria you made up? Reaching a bit far for your point would apply in reverse too it seems.

Either way, there's no way you can reasonably suggest that our lineup against Brighton was a real Ten Hag team, it was very makeshift.

ETH already showed he can be pragmatic last season, when he did a very good job considering where we started. The problem is that we can't just stay playing that way if we want to move forward, and taking steps forward will lead to teething problems, especially as for a lot of players (including our best ones) it's a new and clearly challenging setup to learn.

It is not arbitrary set of criteria. Most of key positions have been reinforced by ETH and the players from Mou and Ole are there either as covers or key players.

I can coach United and say that players fail me because they don't play as I want them to - peak Pep's Barcelona style with everyone being able to dribble and pass like Peak Messi. Then, I can show you some clips of how I didn't want them to play.

The point is that when you are the manager, you have to get there after awhile. I am not saying ETH is shit or he can't do it. I just find it amusing that some people defends him by putting blame on the players and past managers. I can bet that he doesn't even think of it as an excuse.

 

[Bobade]

I don't understand how people can excuse this lack of effort by saying it is the players fault. Of course it is their fault they are not pressing enough or playing with the intensity required, but it's ETH's job to make sure they do. If a particular player won't do it, then he needs to bench them for a player that will, even if that player is worse.

Also, if a player won't run for ETH, why not? Does he not motivate them? Does he not know what buttons to press for them? This is what being a good man manager is about.

 

[CtrlAltDeLigt]

So it’s a fact that eth also admitted that he never got to play his best 11 once during last season. Said it in a very recent press conference.

What’s the chance he’ll get to do that this season and implement his style completely?

Rooting for him that once the majority of squad is back, the team will get some confidence and carry the momentum, akin to last season.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

How do you know when the tactics are working but the players aren't? How can you possibly know that the tactics are working in that case.

I want to address this first part. When Ronaldo was "leading" the line and not really pressing, the tactics fell apart. As soon as someone else was in there pressing, the tactics started working. The first 20 minutes against Brighton, our pressing and winning the ball back within 5 seconds - or drop into a defensive shape, was working. With Hojlund subbed, we were back to not having an effective press at the top. Our fullbacks couldn't get wide and step into midfield, releasing Bruno. It all has a knock on effect. When the players aren't fast (martial), or are half ass in their efforts (Sancho), or out of position (Dalot), or fatigued (Casemiro), or asked to perform a role that is beyond them (McTominay, Eriksen occasionally), it all falls apart and reverts back to "Ole ball" of countering.

I think we need to wait until we see an XI with Højlund , Mount, Amrabat, to see what works or doesn't. Reguilón had a pretty great debut, despite us losing, so I'd add him to the preferred XI.

 

[Stig]

Thats a good video. Don't see how anybody could possibly watch it and blame the manager. Its also hard to watch it and not break your screen in frustration. Absolutely abysmal effort all round, with rashford and mctominay so bad they should be dropped off the back of an amateur tacticians interpretation.

How do you fix it? How to you get fundamentally lazy players in key roles to not be lazy?

We just gave Rashford £300,000 a week; whether he scores or not, whether he tries or nor, even whether he plays or not. These huge non performance based contracts are mad.

 

[Andersonson]

He has got 25 players. Several he has spent a shit load on by using his brothers network. He should be able to get the team to be playing his kind of football wether we win matches or not. If you can't implement your ways without changing 25 players you ain't a good manager.

 

[el3mel]

Going by the players he chose to sign in the market I don't want to see a Ten Hag team at United.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Going by the players he chose to sign in the market I don't want to see a Ten Hag team at United.

I'm holding my reservations on the signings and attributing them directly to ETH.

Getting Hojlund and Mount when Harry Kane was available (sort of) seems like taking leftovers.

 

[gaffs]

Onana
Dalot (new contract) - xxxx - Martinez - xxxx
Casemiro - Amrabat
Antony - Bruno (made captain) - Mount
Hojlund

​

So he's 9/11ths of the way there at least. And the players he didnt sign who he favours are Varane and Shaw. Hardly the root of our problems.

Ten Hag plans to leave Rashford out of his starting XI?

 

[gaffs]

Minus Hojland, Ten Hag had his best XI out against Wolves and Spurs. Rashford was uptop and Garnacho on the right.

We got completely dominated in midfield in the second half against Spurs and Wolves ran through our midfield time and again.

How is that going to improve when Hojland gets brought in ?

 

[ClassOf'99]

I think the biggest question is what would EtH want his team to look like?
What is the formation? Single pivot? Double Pivot? Is it free flowing chance creation or is a striker the focal point? What players?

I haven't watched enough of his Ajax team to answer those questions, but judging by a) what he's been handed b) the comments he's made on certain players and c) what he's done with players out of position I can at least deduct the following:

What is the formation? 4-3-3
Emphasis on a double Pivot providing creativity, wingers that can go either side and look to supply the striker, overlapping wingbacks to provide overloads in the final 3rd, high press, high energy to win the ball back as high up the pitch as possible.

If I was to take a guess at the players he has coupled with wants now I believe the team would look like:

Rashford*----Højlund----Antony*
--------------------Bruno*
-------------Amrabaat-------Case*
Shaw----Martinez----Varane*---AWB*

*players to be improved upon/replaced

Rashford - Needs to change his focus from being the star man to being a team player as EtH wants a free flowing machine not individual brilliance

Immediate replacement - Kvaratskhelia/Mitoma (60-120m)

Antony - His decision making in the final 3rd needs to see MASSIVE improvements, he is young but I haven't seen any improvements

Immediate replacement - Amad/Pellistri

Bruno - His irratic passing at times, decision making, mis-hit/Hollywood passes can be a massive hinderance and he can lose his head when we need him most

Immediate replacement - Mount/Hannibal

Casemiro - His mobility has never been the greatest and as we spread further up the pitch his weaknesses get highlighted all the more, especially when paired with an immobile partner in Eriksen

Immediate replacement - Amrabaat/Mainoo

Varane - Age and injuries have continued to curse him, one of the best on his day but we are being limited to how many days we get

Immediate replacement - Tobido (40m)

AWB - One of the best defensively in a 1-1 but still cannot deal with being played around or defensive positioning, but the main area is the final 3rd where he comes up short but I have seen improvements from him

Immediate replacement - Frimpong (40m)

This isn't a be all end all list, just my input & opinion, a lot of these players can improve and not need to be improved on but that largely depends on their attitude and openness to new tactics and coaching i.e Rashford, Antony & AWB

But Rashford & AWB suffer from being here so long and being under so many different systems & managers that it may take longer for new systems and responsibilities to take root.

 

[gaffs]

Very few managers get to play with their own preferred XI. I don't think ETH should be sacked, but it's not unreasonable to ask a manager to make do with what he's got.

Exactly. People are talking like he is having to field non league players. We have way more talent in our second XI than Brighton have in their first.

 

[The Hilton]

It is not arbitrary set of criteria. Most of key positions have been reinforced by ETH and the players from Mou and Ole are there either as covers or key players.

I can coach United and say that players fail me because they don't play as I want them to - peak Pep's Barcelona style with everyone being able to dribble and pass like Peak Messi. Then, I can show you some clips of how I didn't want them to play.

The point is that when you are the manager, you have to get there after awhile. I am not saying ETH is shit or he can't do it. I just find it amusing that some people defends him by putting blame on the players and past managers. I can bet that he doesn't even think of it as an excuse.

They were absolutely arbitrary, you excluded Dalot, McTominay, and Lindelof as Mou/Ole players for reasons you basically just made up.

As for your main point, I get where you're coming from, but any manager will admit that you need certain players to play a certain way. You can't suddenly make Stoke on a cold windy Tuesday suddenly play like Barcelona.

ETH inherited a squad built to sit deep and counter, full of players who don't know how to press or what to do if the press is successful. That would be OK if his remit was to continue playing like that, but he's been tasked with evolving us to take a more proactive approach. He's set the team up well, but the players he's been forced to choose from so far haven't been up to the standards required.

 

[Big Ray]

Minus Hojland, Ten Hag had his best XI out against Wolves and Spurs. Rashford was uptop and Garnacho on the right.

We got completely dominated in midfield in the second half against Spurs and Wolves ran through our midfield time and again.

How is that going to improve when Hojland gets brought in ?

You’ll not be saying that in a few weeks I think. In a month or maybe 2, our idea of our best 11 will have changed quite a bit, especially our midfield. Wouldn’t be shocked if amrabat / mainoo were the preferred two.

 

[Member 117152]

So SAF should have been sacked in '89 then?

Ten Hag has taken over a more established club not banned from Europe with a fanbase that’s deluded. I’m apart of that bandwagon too as I grew up in the good times.

Life is about taking opportunities and not everyone has the same opportunity to shine.

Works in the Glazer’s favour anyways sacking managers. They have zero intention to compete with City for budget reasons.

Takes the heat off them sacking people and us fans can go debate about the next hipster manager on a hiding to nothing after he makes top 4 so they can stop investing and coast.

Maybe they’ll give us Rodrigo from Madrid or Tchouaméni for the next manager. Gotta get those big name players who became spare parts at better ran clubs.

Fans including myself eat that up as they do improve us but not to the level of the very best. We remain a top 4 club. Maybe at best QF in the CL every few years that way and a Europa league.

 

[Redstain]

Going by the players he chose to sign in the market I don't want to see a Ten Hag team at United.

This is an issue that has followed every manager at United with the exception of Moyes. ETH XI is the very reason fans should complain.

The club cannot keep making the same mistake over and over. Thread should read "Manchester United XI" which is a compilation of responsibilities at all levels from DOF to recruitment to management and coaching /staff that is an approach that signifies unison and what almost every successful club has ensued.

 

[MO_Football92]

You dont need a full XI to play a working football

De Zebri didnt took that long, and we're not talking about City challenging squad. Just a formation and play good enough for the name Manchester United.

Keep the ball well, pass and movement, solid pressing, and actual attack the resembles a well coached team instead of route 1 give it to Rashford.

These things are the bread and butter of good managers. No managers ever gonna get their full XI unless you're SAF or Wenger or at least have stayed in the club for more than 5 years.

I know that some of the mishaps are just RNG like injuries and Antony Mason scandal, but the rest of the team should be enough to formulate something resembling a proper top flight football team

Most managers lifeshelf at a club is 2-3 years max. They work with what they have.

If you dont have personnel for playing tiki taka ajax football. Alter your playstyle to at least buy you time untill you slowly fill your jigzaw pieces.

Football is a perpetual rebuild. You can't wait for a full XI. By the time ETH got his full XI casemiro would have to be replaced, Bruno would be 31 and the we'll always have gaps to fill.

Now i really dont think ETH is clueless. He knew his football. His problem is getting the players to commit to his style and there's only so much he can do when a good number of our players simply refused to run or follow his instructions to a tee. But still the buck lies with the manager. Making sure your boys respect you to follow your instructions is still at the end of the day the brunts of managers job

You think Wenger had his own XI when he won the league in his first full season?

 

[Bobcat]

Improvements to what? Results? Style of play? Manchester United haven't had a world class squad in over a decade. This isn't taking over Real or Barca in the mid 2010's, we're building a squad almost from scratch, starting last summer. Despite not publicly announcing it, that's what's happening.

1st season 11th (partial)
2nd season 2nd
3rd season 11th
4th season 13th
5th season 6th
6th season 2nd
7th season 1st

That's SAF's first 7 seasons' results as manager of United. The preceding 5 seasons saw the team finish 3rd or 4th. His results in the first 4 years alone would have gotten 3 separate managers sacked these days (and plenty of united fans were screaming for it at the time). Was it the wrong decision to let Fergie keep his job? He did well in Scotland, but according to you that should have been meaningless. Was it wrong for Arsenal not to sack Arteta after 2019-20 when he finished 8th again?

Fundamentally, the argument for sacking ten Hag (or any manager, really) this early is premised on the notion that if a manager is going to push the club out of the 2nd tier of PL clubs into the 1st tier, it has to happen within the first 15 months or so or it never will. I think that premise is utterly false, and that a lot of fans vastly overestimate their footballing knowledge thinking they can predict 3 years into the future.

Come on. The squad isnt that bad. Ole (a manager most on here called clueless) managed back to back top 4 with this lot, and ETH has been allowed to spend 400 million on top of that. I am not saying that he should be sacked right now, but he shouldn't be untouhable either just because he did well in his last job.

Managing us is not the same as managing Ajax

 

[UpWithRivers]

Excuses, excuses, excuses. I just posted in another thread. Brightons made 6 changes. They sold most of their top players. There whole team was bought for 16 mill. The same as Dalot cost for us. And they spanked us. Who in Brightons team would get into ours? Some may take Mitoma over Rashford but its close? Lampty over Shaw? Who else? Should Lallana/Dahoud/Gross really own Casemiro/Bruno/Eriksen? The players we had are more than good enough on paper to beat Brighton.