Bundesliga fan Moyes interested in Matthias Ginter?

Balu said:
I didn't feel offended, I just believe that going abroad isn't a problem for most German players if they get the right offer. The brilliant generation right now is still young, more than enough time to move for most of the players. But let's not forget that the Bundesliga isn't a bad place to be at the moment.
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Umm I did a little more research on the topic and I believe I can come up with some statistical evidence to back my previous claims. Now this doesn't encompass all the German players, but I'm working under the assumption that the best players often go to major tournaments ? So I've complied a sort of list of the number of players playing abroad along with some other nations where a greater number of players ply their trade in foreign leagues. It uses data since the 2002 World cup so it's more than a decade of Fergie years :

2002 WC :

German National Team players playing abroad : 3
Brazilian National Team players playing abroad : 10
Argentine National Team players playing abroad : 21
French National Team players playing abroad : 18

2004 Euro :

German National Team players playing abroad : 3
French National Team players playing abroad : 15
Portuguese National Team players playing abroad : 7
Dutch National Team players playing abroad : 17

2006 WC :

German National Team players playing abroad : 2
Brazilian National Team players playing abroad : 20
Argentine National Team players playing abroad : 20
French National Team players playing abroad : 10
Portuguese National Team players playing abroad : 15
Dutch National Team players playing abroad : 9

2008 Euro :

German National Team players playing abroad : 4
French National Team players playing abroad : 14
Portuguese National Team players playing abroad : 11
Dutch National Team players playing abroad : 9

2010 WC :

German National Team players playing abroad : 0
Brazilian National Team players playing abroad : 20
Argentine National Team players playing abroad : 17
French National Team players playing abroad : 12
Portuguese National Team players playing abroad : 13
Dutch National Team players playing abroad : 14

Now I know that this may not be the most conclusive set of data and it seems like I've conveniently matched them up with players from nations with smaller leagues. But that's the point isn't it ? Either by the fact that the Bundesliga is stronger than those other leagues or not preferring to play abroad there have been a total of 12 aggregate squad members from a possible 115 to have been playing in foreign leagues. It may not be as extreme as say Italy or England where often no player in the squad is playing abroad but it's still strong evidence.

I'd like to add is that the number 12 is a little skewed because the likes of Jens Lehmann and Hamann were counted multiple times so the actual number is smaller still. Compared to Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, Messi, Vieira, Henry, RVN, RVP and many many many others who spent their young and peak years abroad. Another thing I've noticed about them is :

Christian Ziege : Spent most of his formative years with Bayern.
Dietmar Hamann : IMO not the greatest player fair to say. Doubt Fergie would've liked to sign him.
Jens Lehmann : Had a horrible stint at Milan and returned to the Bundesliga. Then moved to Arsenal at a ripe age of 34.
Robert Huth : Had moderate success and plays for Stoke now.
Michael Ballack : Spent his prime years in Leverkusen and Bayern. At 30 he felt the need for a change but I think he was already past him prime when at Chelsea.
David Odonkor : Moderate player. Didn't have a lot of success abroad.
Miroslav Klose : Like Ballack he went to Lazio for a change of scenery at 33, well past his prime years.
Christoph Metzelder : The Madrid move at 27 ruined him and he returned to the Bundesliga with Schalke.

So as you can see very few of the best German players have left to play abroad in their young age or in their primes. Most of them prefer to stay in their formative and prime years and move later on when they've achieved a lot in the Bundesiga. Already we've seen Ozil, Mertesacker, Schurrle, Khedira, Gnabry and others who're enjoying success in other leagues. Whether the likes of Kroos, Ginter, Gundogan, Hummels follow suit in the future is anyone's guess. Personally I would love them all to move to United. :D
 
I'd like to see the numbers for english, italian and spanish players.

The EPL, Serie A, Primera Division and Bundesliga have been the best 4 leagues in europe for many decades now, so it's obvious that a lot of players from weaker leagues (Brazil, Argentina, Dutch, Protugal, even France) gather in those, until now preferably in Italy (until maybe 8 years ago, at least), Spain and England due to better weather (in Italy and Spain, a big deal for south americans) and more money to be earned (England, Spain).

Until recently, the Bundesliga just lacked the pull and wouldn't spend the money necessary to buy the very best spanish, english etc. players, but this might change now. On the other hand, the EPL still pukes out money to get who they want, but are still overpaying for guys from traditional "mercenary" countries far too often while also raising the price for any decent british player to such ridiculous heights that no sane foreign team would pay up.

Had anybody bothered to scout Schalke's or Dortmund's youth squads, I doubt a team like United or Chelsea would have let slip the chance to get players like Draxler, Meyer or Götze (who's also completely fluent in german from his years spent in the USA) before they turned 15. These are times were 9year olds get recruited for crying out loud, so how come nobody bothered to take a look at Germany?
 
I believe the reason we might go for Ginter is his ability to play the ball out from the back, both with short passes but also playing long balls. We have Evans who is good at that, and maybe Jones can improve to be good at it too especially given he's done it from a DM position. Smalling is the main one who will need someone decent at moving the ball around especially in a big match when our CBs can be closed down quickly. However if we go for this guy, surely it means we're not replacing Vidic/Rio with a readymade quality CB and we're putting our faith in who we have now, with Ginter competing for a place with the rest. The only scenario where we'd sign a young 20 year old CB with some specific qualities but not better than what we have and also sign a readymade replacement for Vidic would be if Jones or indeed Ginter were used in central midfield... Meaning we wouldnt be signing a new cm.
 
@Mauzindark
I think you missed my point, nothing I've written contradicts the stats you brought up here.
 
Señor said:
Vidal and Gundogan were so obviously quality it was mind numbing how we weren't even linked to them. It's not like there was many young midfielders getting banded around at a time where we were desperately lacking in midfield and our party line was 'there's no value in the market'.
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Thats funny because while there was interest by multiple Bundesliga clubs (Hoffenheim, Hamburg, Leverkusen) and United scouted him quite a bit, the transfer to Dortmund did not cause much of an uproar in the league or was regarded as major steal. A lot of people infact doubted Gündogan´s ability to replace Nuri Sahin and the first six months of his stay in Dortmund were filled with "told you so" articles.

It was not until his late winner in the cup vs. Fürth, when his form literally exploded and he reached a performance level, which most supporters (including me) did not expect from him. And I honestly think we could not be blamed for that.

He was a bright prospect, but was not generally seen as a top drawer talent in Germany, someone with the potential to reach world class one day. His impact on the national youth teams was pretty minor and he was also a very different player in his days at Nürnberg. His dribbling, control and passing were all good, but what made him really stand out there was his versatility. He could play CM and any position in the offensive midfield. In his two professional seasons at Nürnberg he actually played more often in the offensive midfield than the center. He was seen as an offensive allrounder rather than a real central Midfielder.

The first time he was consistently put there was in Dortmund, where he struggled immensively in the first half season. It is not unusual for players to need time to get used to Klopp´s demanding system, but in Gündogan´s case he was actually reshaped as a player. He gained enough defensive stability to actually work on the highest level in a two men midfield, his vision and decision making improved drastically. His pressing resistance, which one of the things he is now best known for also surfaced then. All these things were never strengths he was known for back at Nürnberg, which makes the attempted hindsight, that United should have gone for him back then, when he was about to leave Nürnberg highly speculative.

Klopp´s influence on him not only in terms of level but also style was so massive, that there is a high chance that Gündogan may never turned out to be the player he is today under a different coach.
 
Dwazza Van Porschie said:
I don't think it's that. Fergie was old school and British. He'd trust a German less than he would an Italian, and we know how he feels about them. There's no other explicable reason.
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If that's the case then he was being stupid. I love Italian football but I have to admit that in terms of attitude, value for money and characteristics German talent would suit the EPL better then Italian ones.
 
Ekeke said:
? We were linked with Gundogan. Not Vidal. And you might think its obvious but who were linked with Vidal? Juventus and they signed him. Where are Barcelona, Madrid, Chelsea, City, etc? They werent linked either.

I think what is obvious is despite playing really well in bundasliga the season before he left, the top teams werent looking at him to play in their 2 men in midfield. At Juventus he's found the current Italian style of packing the midfield and letting the CMs get forward to perfectly favour him. At this current point its easy to imagine him still being really good in a midfield duo but would he have looked as good a player these past couple of years without being in that 3-5-2 formation that makes the CMs the stars? Probably not so much.
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He certainly had more chances of succeeding there then Cleverley and Ando. 10.5m euros (I was wrong on the fee), for a midfielder who topped the Bundersliga assist chart from CM is value. There again we never seemed interested in the Bundersliga and the way we handled CM in the past few years border to the ridiculous.
 
Mauzindark said:
While I get where you're coming from to be fair that's kind of a hyperbole. I doubt very much that Fergie and our scouts actively shunned the Bundesliga. The thing is there are not a lot of German players playing abroad compared to Spaniards, Argentines, Brazilians or Portuguese. They prefer to stay in the Bundesliga even when bigger foreign clubs come calling. In that way it's sort of like British players. There are very few plying there trade outside the isles. Fergie did try a few times to sign Bundesliga players. The few concrete interests I can think of are Hargreaves, Kahn, Ballack and Metzelder. Infact not a lot of German players have been successful in the Premier League. Unless I'm mistaken in recent times I can only think of the ones at Arsenal and Ballack at Chelsea. That might have had a bearing in Fergie's mind.
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Thats not true. During the 90s many Germans moved elsewhere. Mattheus, Brehme, Sammer and Klinsmann played for Inter. Hassler played for Roma, Moller, Kohler and Reuter for Juventus. Even to this day you find Gomez and Klose in Italy, Podolski, Schurrie Mertesacker, Hotby and Ozil in England and Khedira and Marin in Spain. We only signed 1 German player (at youth level) and 1 foreigner playing there (Kagawa). That doesnt seem right
 
devilish said:
Thats not true. During the 90s many Germans moved elsewhere. Mattheus, Brehme, Sammer and Klinsmann played for Inter. Hassler played for Roma, Moller, Kohler and Reuter for Juventus. Even to this day you find Gomez and Klose in Italy, Podolski, Schurrie Mertesacker, Hotby and Ozil in England and Khedira and Marin in Spain. We only signed 1 German player (at youth level) and 1 foreigner playing there (Kagawa). That doesnt seem right
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2.
 
SilentWitness said:
Does it mention a fee?
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No. It mentions Borussia Mönchengladbach is in advanced negotiations with the player and his agent but their ability to afford Ginter will strongly depend on SC Freiburg's future in the Bundesliga. In case they relegate Ginter will be of course a lot cheaper. I'd guess € 6-8m is the maximum for BMG.
 
Bazi said:
Seems like he's close to joining Borussia Mönchengladbach next summer. :confused:

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussba...iburg-transfer-wechsel-einigkeit-abstieg.html

I figured he'd be off to Dortmund to replace Sebastian Kehl in central defensive midfield.
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Ginter was never going to be the long term replacement for Kehl anyway, though. Ginter can play there, but his potential and performance level is only a fraction of what he can deliver on the CB position. He has actually failed to impress me in that role everytime I have seen him play for Freiburg this season. Like with many other CB (Hummels, Jones, etc.) or DM (Martinez, S. Bender, etc.), who could potentially play the other role, the difference in quality is appearant when used outside their primary role.

His ability to play as DM could have given him opportunities to actually play for Dortmund in his first year there, though, but with Kehl´s rise of form and likelyhood to stay another year, even that has become unlikely.

For him personally a transfer to Gladbach to replace the departing Brouwers would make more sense. At Dortmund he would be fourth in the pecking order of the CB and right now he needs game time to develop properly. From Dortmund´s perspective the only realisitc scenario for spending around ten Mil. € for him would be if one of their top 3 central defenders would be on the way out in the summer. Sokratis is out of the question and Hummels is very unlikely. That leaves Subotic, who could have contemplated a move towards the EPL until his knee injury put such plans to a halt.
 
Sphaero said:
Ginter was never going to be the long term replacement for Kehl anyway, though.
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I figured Ginter would replace Kehl in defensive midfield for the next 1-2 years, possibly rotating into central defense on occasion. Then when Subotic and / or Hummels want to leave the club, Ginter would be the already integrated in-house successor in central defense.
 
Bazi said:
I figured Ginter would replace Kehl in defensive midfield for the next 1-2 years, possibly rotating into central defense on occasion. Then when Subotic and / or Hummels want to leave the club, Ginter would be the already integrated in-house successor in central defense.
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I agree, but this scenario becomes unlikely with Kehl staying another year.
 
Bazi said:
Kehl's extension isn't official yet, is it?
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No, but both sides are willing to make it that way. They are right now in talks about the details of a new one year deal. Given his performances since being fully fit and the role in the team it would also be the right call to keep him in my eyes.
 
Sphaero said:
No, but both sides are willing to make it that way. They are right now in talks about the details of a new one year deal. Given his performances since being fully fit and the role in the team it would also be the right call to keep him in my eyes.
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I rather thought the delayed signature was a hint towards BVB trying to sign Ginter with Kehl as their fall-back plan in case they can't lure the 20 year old to the Signal-Iduna Park. I still think it's a risk to go into yet another season with two injury-prone central defensive midfielders, whatever Kehl's recent performances may justify or not.
 
Kicker reported that according to their sources a move abroad is not an option for Ginter. They are usually very reliable.
 
ricardinho said:
Hasnt he signed With Bayern?
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Nope. I doubt they are even interested. Ginter is not yet ready to join a club like Bayern. Dortmund and Borussia Mönchengladbach seem the most likely destinations.
 
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