British + Irish draft: Raees vs Annah (Group B)

[Annahnomoss]

This is the second time I read this stuff about how he forced the change of the offfside rule. How exactly? How did it work before and after and what did he do to force such a change?

I get it with throw-ins, that's pretty bleeding obvious, you could pretty much run all the way up the pitch and wind up with the guy taking the throw-in needing to Rory Delap it into his own box, which is clearly flawed.

In 1866, the law was liberalised so that a player was considered to be onside if there were three defensive players between him and the goal (or was behind the ball, which has remained a constant); this was the variant to which Queen's Park committed when they joined the FA four years later. In 1873 that law was modified so that offside was judged when the ball was played, rather than when the player received the ball.

Since then, the process has been of increasing liberalisation. In 1903, the notion of interfering with play was introduced: "It is not a breach of Law for a player simply to be in an off-side position, but only when in that position, he causes the play to be affected." Four years later it was decided a player could only be offside in the opposition's half, and in 1921 that it was impossible to be offside from a throw-in.

It wasn't an easy task to force somebody offside as the opponents forwards knew about it as well, you needed someone with brilliant reading of the game and nearly all teams failed to do this themselves.

When Newcastle drew 0-0 at Bury in February 1925, it came as the final straw. It was Newcastle's sixth goalless draw of a season that produced what at the time was an unthinkably low average of 2.58 goals per game. The football was boring, attendances were falling and the FA, for once, not only recognised that something needed to be done, but set about doing it.

The 1925 change
The FA came up with two possible solutions: either to require only two defending players to be in advance of the forward for him to be onside, or to add a line in each half 40 yards from goal behind which a forward could not be offside. After an exhibition match in which one alternative was trialled in each half, the FA plumped for the former. It was recommended to the International Board, and introduced ahead of the 1925-26 season.

Goals shot up to 3.69 per game in that season, but the ultimate impact was to usher in a radical change in tactics. Previously a side looking to play the offside trap had been able to retain one full-back as cover as his partner stepped up to try to catch the forward; the new legislation meant that a misjudgment risked leaving the forward through one-on-one with the goalkeeper.

 

[Raees]

Some great posts in this thread. Its hard for me to feel like I've formed a credible opinion with some of the more obscure players, but both of the managers are doing a good job in filling in the blanks.

I keep on being on the verge of voting for Annah on the strength of his formidable attack serviced by Blanchflower, but this Reaney as Best's kryptonite angle has me intrigued. I love the combativeness and workrate in Raees' midfield, and McNeill and Campbell in a back four looks great to me.

One question for @Raees though, out of McNeill, Mackay and Campbell, who have you awarded the captaincy too?

Definitely not Campbell and it isn't based on race. For me my captain was McNeill, great organiser of a defence and needs the captaincy to elevate his performance. Mackay is a leader regardless of wearingthe armband.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Some great posts in this thread. Its hard for me to feel like I've formed a credible opinion with some of the more obscure players, but both of the managers are doing a good job in filling in the blanks.

I keep on being on the verge of voting for Annah on the strength of his formidable attack serviced by Blanchflower, but this Reaney as Best's kryptonite angle has me intrigued. I love the combativeness and workrate in Raees' midfield, and McNeill and Campbell in a back four looks great to me.

One question for @Raees though, out of McNeill, Mackay and Campbell, who have you awarded the captaincy too?

He has Raich Carter a striker, second striker or attacking midfielder - next to Mackay and Bremner who are central/defensive midfielders.

I have Danny Blanchflower a Right Half/holding midfielder who brings a lot more to the midfield battle in terms of defensive abilities and work rate than Raich Carter - while Ron Burgess and Bill Slater are of the similar mold as Mackay/Bremner.

Basically a three man midfield against two midfielders and an attacking midfielder who wasn't either known for his incredible work rate in the defense.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

He has Raich Carter a striker, second striker or attacking midfielder - next to Mackay and Bremner who are central/defensive midfielders.

I have Danny Blanchflower a Right Half/holding midfielder who brings a lot more to the midfield battle in terms of defensive abilities and work rate than Raich Carter - while Ron Burgess and Bill Slater are of the similar mold as Mackay/Bremner.

Basically a three man midfield against two midfielders and an attacking midfielder who wasn't either known for his incredible work rate in the defense.

Fair point mate and I'll consider it of course but I more meant the quality of Mackay and especially Bremner (who I've seen more of and rate very highly) rather than numbers in that area.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Burgess being forgotten once more!

In the case of Ron Burgess, mining's loss was football's immeasurable gain.

People who knew him as a boy joked that, with his boundless vitality, immense strength and readiness to toil until he dropped, he might single-handedly have emptied the South Wales coalfield in which he grew up expecting to spend his working life. Instead he hewed out a glorious niche as one of the most influential performers in the history of Tottenham Hotspur, emerging as a titanic presence at the heart of the team which took English club football by storm midway through the 20th century.

Burgess was both skipper and midfield inspiration as the north Londoners topped the Second Division table in 1949/50, then lifted the League championship a year later, and, if one man embodied the ethos of the visionary manager Arthur Rowe's exhilarating combination, it was the genial, prematurely balding Welshman.

His perpetual motion and irrepressible enthusiasm, melding potently with the wily passing game of the inside- forward Eddie Baily, facilitated the side's fluid push-and-run style, which highlighted Rowe's credentials as one of the game's most progressive thinkers.

Not that Burgess was merely a workhorse, his characteristic dynamism and resilience being gilded by comprehensive all-round ability; his ball control was neat, his distribution assured, he was positionally astute, formidable in the air and quick over the ground.

 

[Annahnomoss]

"I was in the privileged position as chief football reporter with the Daily Express to be able to ask the principle people -Arthur Rowe, Alf Ramsay and Bill Nicholson- who was the most influential player in that push and run team. Each answered without hesitation, "Ron Burgess."
Bill Nick even went so far as to add; Ronnie was the greatest player to ever pull on a Tottenham shirt. Yes, with a gun to my head I would even have to put him ahead of Dave Mackay."

 

[Annahnomoss]

Bill Slater, FWA player of the year 1959-60; He was the man-marker that "Bill Nick" and "Sir Walt" used to keep Brazilian legend Didi fairly quiet in England's v. Brazil in the '58 WC match.

Slater also did an excellent job of marking Ferenc Puskas in Wolves victory over Honved in one of those not-so-friendly club "friendlies" in Dec. of '54 - the year they came second in the WC.

Tough but fair signified Slater, never picking up a yellow/"caution" - a player you love in your own team and hate in the opponents. "The Brazilian match observer Eduardo Santos named him the most "perverse player" he had ever seen. Slater's game basically consisted of stamping his opponents heels and pulling them to the ground. This caused Brazil to renounce the use of their right attacker Garrincha to protect him in the group match against England, which ended 0-0."

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Burgess wasn't so much forgotten as barely known by me Annah, but again you've given me something to think about. That's high praise from Nicholson!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Raees has gone too defensive. Considering Best/Matthews I can understand, but no one is going to buy any player who can 'neutralize' them. He should play to his strengths and just try to outscore Annah, rather than try to contain him.

Who does Raees has in the bench?

 

[Raees]

Raees has gone too defensive. Considering Best/Matthews I can understand, but no one is going to buy any player who can 'neutralize' them. He should play to his strengths and just try to outscore Annah, rather than try to contain him.

Who does Raees has in the bench?

I changed it pal, playing lorimer and jones now. Ball and Bob on the bench.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Raees has gone too defensive. Considering Best/Matthews I can understand, but no one is going to buy any player who can 'neutralize' them. He should play to his strengths and just try to outscore Annah, rather than try to contain him.

Who does Raees has in the bench?

Do you mean his current formation or the 5-4-1 he started with? The current one is quite attacking really. Law up front, two attackers flanking him, and Carter (basically an attacking player) in a 3 man midfield.

 

[Joga Bonito]

He has Raich Carter a striker, second striker or attacking midfielder - next to Mackay and Bremner who are central/defensive midfielders.

I have Danny Blanchflower a Right Half/holding midfielder who brings a lot more to the midfield battle in terms of defensive abilities and work rate than Raich Carter - while Ron Burgess and Bill Slater are of the similar mold as Mackay/Bremner.

Basically a three man midfield against two midfielders and an attacking midfielder who wasn't either known for his incredible work rate in the defense.

Agreed. Carter shouldn't be used in a midfield trio. He was a creative genius and a luxury player of sorts. He was an attacking midfielder or an inside forward back in those days. If your team is looking to dominate the game and needs a goalscoring playmaker dictating the game, then Carter would be your man. This isn't the type of game which is calling out for Carter, esp in a defensive set up.

If Carter is pushed up into an attacking midfield slot (like how Gio used James), with Bremner and McKay being defensive midfielders more or less, then it would make sense. Which was what I meant in my earlier post about him playing alongside wingers.

For my money, I would go with McKay, Bremner and Ball as the midfield trio which was already perfect imo. It will be hard to drop Carter and I can understand why Raees is persisting with him but against Annah's midfield trio it would be Ball who would be the better fit.

He was not on the level of Carter when it came to technique or creativity but he was a fine ball player and a good passer with goals as well. More importantly, he also has tremendous work rate and would complement Bremner and McKay by being the link between midfield and attack. A fine attacking box to box imo. Leaving McKay and Bremner to dominate the middle and also giving them the freedom to drive forward occasionally, something they won't have with Carter in midfield.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Agreed. Carter shouldn't be used in a midfield trio. He was a creative genius and a luxury player of sorts. He was an attacking midfielder or an inside forward back in those days. If your team is looking to dominate the game and needs a goalscoring playmaker dictating the game, then Carter would be your man. This isn't the type of game which is calling out for Carter, esp in a defensive set up.

If Carter is pushed up into an attacking midfield slot (like how Gio used James), with Bremner and McKay being defensive midfielders more or less, then it would make sense. Which was what I meant in my earlier post about him playing alongside wingers.

For my money, I would go with McKay, Bremner and Ball as the midfield trio which was already perfect imo. It will be hard to drop Carter and I can understand why Raees is persisting with him but against Annah's midfield trio it would be Ball who would be the better fit.

He was not on the level of Carter when it came to technique or creativity but he was a fine ball player and a good passer with goals as well. More importantly, he also has tremendous work rate and would complement Bremner and McKay by being the link between midfield and attack. A fine attacking box to box imo. Leaving McKay and Bremner to dominate the middle and also giving them the freedom to drive forward occasionally, something they won't have with Carter in midfield.

Unfortunately right now he made a double substitution to get both Crompton and Ball out - leaving him with no more substitutions on the bench. Very radical to use Carter like that and he will definitely struggle in comparison to the rest of the central midfielders and defensive midfielders who are in their peak roles.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Damn, voting through phone with bad connection sucks!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Agreed. Carter shouldn't be used in a midfield trio. He was a creative genius and a luxury player of sorts. He was an attacking midfielder or an inside forward back in those days. If your team is looking to dominate the game and needs a goalscoring playmaker dictating the game, then Carter would be your man. This isn't the type of game which is calling out for Carter, esp in a defensive set up.

If Carter is pushed up into an attacking midfield slot (like how Gio used James), with Bremner and McKay being defensive midfielders more or less, then it would make sense. Which was what I meant in my earlier post about him playing alongside wingers.

For my money, I would go with McKay, Bremner and Ball as the midfield trio which was already perfect imo. It will be hard to drop Carter and I can understand why Raees is persisting with him but against Annah's midfield trio it would be Ball who would be the better fit.

He was not on the level of Carter when it came to technique or creativity but he was a fine ball player and a good passer with goals as well. More importantly, he also has tremendous work rate and would complement Bremner and McKay by being the link between midfield and attack. A fine attacking box to box imo. Leaving McKay and Bremner to dominate the middle and also giving them the freedom to drive forward occasionally, something they won't have with Carter in midfield.

I'd deleted a line off my last post saying his formation looked more a 4-2-3-1 than a 4-3-3 as it looked harsh on his team whatever way I'd phrased it. To my shame, I hadn't even noticed the dropping of Ball, which largely negates anything I said against Annah's midfield. I'm going to vite for Annah here, but I may well change it as I'm drunk and still love Raees' defence.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I'd deleted a line off my last post saying his formation looked more a 4-2-3-1 than a 4-3-3 as it looked harsh on his team whatever way I'd phrased it. To my shame, I hadn't even noticed the dropping of Ball, which largely negates anything I said against Annah's midfield. I'm going to vite for Annah here, but I may well change it as I'm drunk and still love Raees' defence.

Tbf I was a bit over critical and perhaps focused too much on the negatives instead of the positives in his change.

The inclusion of Cliff Jones is a great move and he was a brilliant left winger who could score goals and was an excellent technical and creative wing forward. He was one of the best wingers of his era and he could even be underrated here.

If it just had been Ball instead of Carter, I might have even voted for his team. That's how highly I rate his defense (considering Annah's fantastic forward trio) and just about every player there with the exception of Lorimer perhaps, who I don't know much about other than his fierce shot and that he was a decent goalscorer.

Playing Carter has its own merits as well. If Bremner and McKay manage to win the midfield battle (by being 2 purely defensive players) and service him enough he will run the show and provide chance after chance for his fellow forwards. He had an approximately 1 in 2 goalscoring record as well.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Well played @Raees and I hope it was a good read for everybody.

 

[Fergus' son]

Some great players and write ups all round but what a front four @Annahnomoss assembled. I don't know much about how the reinforcements work but I think the teams towards the latter stages of this draft are going to be unbelievable.

 

[antohan]

Some great players and write ups all round but what a front four @Annahnomoss assembled. I don't know much about how the reinforcements work but I think the teams towards the latter stages of this draft are going to be unbelievable.

Indeed, I couldn't look past that front four, which I guess was the idea when Annah blew his budget banking on 7 others being landed for 10M a piece.

Writeups are brilliant, I'm quite enjoying this as I actually don't know a truckload of players.

 

[antohan]

In 1866, the law was liberalised so that a player was considered to be onside if there were three defensive players between him and the goal (or was behind the ball, which has remained a constant); this was the variant to which Queen's Park committed when they joined the FA four years later. In 1873 that law was modified so that offside was judged when the ball was played, rather than when the player received the ball.

Since then, the process has been of increasing liberalisation. In 1903, the notion of interfering with play was introduced: "It is not a breach of Law for a player simply to be in an off-side position, but only when in that position, he causes the play to be affected." Four years later it was decided a player could only be offside in the opposition's half, and in 1921 that it was impossible to be offside from a throw-in.

It wasn't an easy task to force somebody offside as the opponents forwards knew about it as well, you needed someone with brilliant reading of the game and nearly all teams failed to do this themselves.

When Newcastle drew 0-0 at Bury in February 1925, it came as the final straw. It was Newcastle's sixth goalless draw of a season that produced what at the time was an unthinkably low average of 2.58 goals per game. The football was boring, attendances were falling and the FA, for once, not only recognised that something needed to be done, but set about doing it.

The 1925 change
The FA came up with two possible solutions: either to require only two defending players to be in advance of the forward for him to be onside, or to add a line in each half 40 yards from goal behind which a forward could not be offside. After an exhibition match in which one alternative was trialled in each half, the FA plumped for the former. It was recommended to the International Board, and introduced ahead of the 1925-26 season.

Goals shot up to 3.69 per game in that season, but the ultimate impact was to usher in a radical change in tactics. Previously a side looking to play the offside trap had been able to retain one full-back as cover as his partner stepped up to try to catch the forward; the new legislation meant that a misjudgment risked leaving the forward through one-on-one with the goalkeeper.

Good stuff. It doesn't really explain in what way he "took advantage" or "played the rule and forced it being changed". Sounds to me it was simply a matter of defending within the rules and not defending like retards, and the FA just wanting more goals, as was the case with goalposts, the backpass, etc.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Good stuff. It doesn't really explain in what way he "took advantage" or "played the rule and forced it being changed". Sounds to me it was simply a matter of defending within the rules and not defending like retards, and the FA just wanting more goals, as was the case with goalposts, the backpass, etc.

Think that is a good summary of it all.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Some great players and write ups all round but what a front four @Annahnomoss assembled. I don't know much about how the reinforcements work but I think the teams towards the latter stages of this draft are going to be unbelievable.

Indeed, I couldn't look past that front four, which I guess was the idea when Annah blew his budget banking on 7 others being landed for 10M a piece.

Writeups are brilliant, I'm quite enjoying this as I actually don't know a truckload of players.

Cheers guys! There are a lot of stuff saved up for new matches as well - especially about the Tottenham/Blackpool players as there are some brilliant books on those lads that I am getting through.

I didn't want to go too much in to Mortensen as his all round abilities and actual performances sounds a bit overhyped if explained. But the man wasn't just bullet, with an eye for finding his wingers with through balls. The man scored 30 goals in the league alone for Blackpool, the same amount as Law's record as well. Also a monster of a big game player, doing incredibly well in the FA cup which was highly competitive back then - Between 1945 and 1950, Mortensen scored in twelve consecutive rounds of the FA Cup, including the Final in 1948. - and he is still today the only player to score a hat-trick in the FA Cup final.

Playing for the NT has always been a different thing all together from playing for a club where you are comfortable with your teammates, your role and the manager. Mortensen really shined in that area as well with his 23 goals in 25 matches.

Mortensen had a better goals per game ratio than Jimmy Greaves for the English NT and Dixie Dean scored 18 in 16 games which isn't in a "different tier" than Mortensen.

 

[Raees]

Well played @Raees and I hope it was a good read for everybody.

Pleasure debating with you my friend. Some great reads provided by you during the game.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Pleasure debating with you my friend. Some great reads provided by you during the game.

By you as well mate!

 

[Annahnomoss]

I was a bit surprised how lowly rated Bill Slater was to be honest, I can't honestly think of any better actual defensive midfielders. Duncan, Keane, Mackay and Souness are midfield generals rather who'd burst up and down the pitch.

Had top performances in defensive roles against both Puskas and Didi, which is as big a challenge as you can face as well.

Slater was himself as good in the "midfield general role" but he was arguably as good in the pure DM role he played in big games often and for England consistently. If you play Duncan, Keane etc in a pure defensive midfield role you lose out on some great abilities they had as offensive wing halfs.

 

[antohan]

I was a bit surprised how lowly rated Bill Slater was to be honest, I can't honestly think of any better actual defensive midfielders. Duncan, Keane, Mackay and Souness are midfield generals rather who'd burst up and down the pitch.

Had top performances in defensive roles against both Puskas and Didi, which is as big a challenge as you can face as well.

Slater was himself as good in the "midfield general role" but he was arguably as good in the pure DM role he played in big games often and for England consistently. If you play Duncan, Keane etc in a pure defensive midfield role you lose out on some great abilities they had as offensive wing halfs.

I had never, ever, heard of him. Had no idea he even existed and, tbh, I'll probably forget him by about this time next week.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I had never, ever, heard of him. Had no idea he even existed and, tbh, I'll probably forget him by about this time next week.

Think that applies to loads of players in this draft, for us all!

 

[Annahnomoss]

Burgess wasn't so much forgotten as barely known by me Annah, but again you've given me something to think about. That's high praise from Nicholson!

Had missed this message! Yeah, as well as from Arthur Rowe. Putting him above Mackay isn't shocking - the quality difference was splitting hairs, they were nearly carbon copies as well, but considering how highly Rowe rated Blanchflower I was very surprised to see Burgess named ahead of him.