British + Irish Draft (Gio vs crappy) Group A

Who will win with players at their peaks?


  • Total voters
    20
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

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........................................... Team Gio ......................................................................................... Team crappy ...........................................




Team Gio

TEAM

Every player in the team was either best-in-the-world-in-their-position calibre or were strong performers when their national teams were the best in the world (see England in the 1960s and 1990, Scotland in the late-1920s and 1930s). In Banks, Cole, Finney and Greaves, we have four who would qualify for an all-time Britain and Ireland select. That's over a third of the starting XI. The defence combines sheer pace in Walker and Cole (perfect against Rush and Gallacher) with Scottish steel in Miller and Young (perfect against Rooney and Bale). The great all-round leader Meiklejohn and the gritty Mullery combine to hold the midfield. Together they will do the dirty work and cancel out any threat from Baxter. They will support an exceptionally talented front four. Alex James, the passing master, will link midfield and attack, feeding the elusive trio up top. Morton is the wing wizard on the left, one of the very best these Isles have produced. On the right but with freedom to roam is the great Tom Finney who will surely get the better of many, if not all, the full-backs in the draft. The predator up front is Greaves, the foremost goalscorer in the draft, who will thrive on the service provided by Finney, Morton and the assist king James.

THE WAY IT WILL GO
Crappy's fundamental weakness is the absence of any genuine defensive presence in midfield. It's too top-heavy, Baxter was the archetypal lazy genius and we should over-run them in midfield. With Davie Meiklejohn and Alan Mullery anchoring, Alex James is going to have a field day. That should afford Tom Finney, Jimmy Greaves and Alan Morton the service they will surely exploit.

Team crappy

Defense -
  • Ferdinand is the second best defender in this draft after Moore. Bruce is the ideal partner for him and remains perhaps the best English player never to earn a NT cap.
  • Phil Neal, one of the most successful English footballer of all time (he played in all 4 European cup wins), was a mainstay for Liverpool in their glory run. Nicknamed Zico due to his penchant for scoring crucial goals.
  • Irwin himself needs no introduction , as reliable as they come and an asset while attacking too.
  • Final wall in front of the goal is Andy Goram, regarded as the best Rangers' keeper of all time.
Attack -
  • Two young stars in Bale and Rooney need no introduction. Both remain somewhat underrated for different reasons even though they are easily one of the most talented players to come out of their respective countries.
  • Ian Rush, Liverpool's and Wales' all time top scorer, is perfect to lead the line and go up against any defense in the draft. Rooney is the perfect player to establish a similar partnership with him ala Dalglish.
  • Patsy "Mighty Atom" Gallacher, an unknown to all here would be ramping it up on the right. Any doubts about his prowess can be quelled by the fact that he had a scottish cup final named after him
in the 1925 Scottish Cup final, a match since dubbed 'The Patsy Gallacher Final'. Getting the ball just inside the Dundee half, he rolled past challenge after challenge, sometimes appearing in danger of toppling over as he swerved and swayed dangerously close to the ground. No Dundee boot or body could stop him completely as he veered, sure foot as a young deer, towards their goalmouth. Finally a heavy, desperate tackle grounded him inside the six-yard box. Patsy hit the ground and for an instant his brave effort seemed to be at an end. But Patsy had not yet parted company with the ball, which remained between his feet. A quick somersault and both Patsy and the ball ended up entangled in the Dundee net for the most unorthodox goal in a Scottish Cup Final. It was one magical moment.

Even an opposition player is a fan -

Alan Morton: Within 20 yards of goal Patsy Gallacher was the most dangerous forward I have ever seen. You never knew what he would do. Often he would wriggle through, past man after man, with defenders reluctant to tackle in case they gave away a penalty kick

Patsy Gallacher
played 464 times for Celtic and scored 192 goals. He also won international caps for both Eire and Northern Ireland. He became the highest paid international player at the time, and over 50,000 turned up at Windsor Park (N Ireland) to see him in his debut. Even after over 50 years after his death his name is revered like few others by Celtic fans, most of whom were not even born when he was still alive. Read more about his legend here
Midfield -
  • Jim Baxter would be the lynchpin of the midfield. 'Slim' Jim Baxter is best remembered for his performance at Wembley in 1967 when, as Scotland defeated world champions England 3-2, he engaged in a bout of keepie-uppies for the amusement of the Tartan Army. It was the perfect encapsulation of an arrogant, self-destructive player who, for many, remains the most gifted Scotland has seen. In his prime, Baxter was known for his ability to raise a team's morale, his good tactical vision, precise passing and ability to send opponents the wrong way and also was good in slide tackle. Baxter played for Rangers from 1960 to 1965 and during this period the team won the Scottish League Championship in 1961, 1963 and 1964,and the Scottish Cup in 1964. In 18 "Old Firm" games against local rivals Celtic – 10 Scottish League, five Scottish League Cup and three Scottish Cup matches – he was only twice on the losing side. Read more about his genius here
  • WC 66 Winner Martin Peters would be his partner. UK's first 200k footballer, he was known as "the complete midfielder" as he could pass the ball well with either foot, was good in the air and difficult to mark because of his movement. A FK specialist to boot. Read more about him here
Summary

The team will be playing an attacking game with the goal of scoring more than the opposition. Individually all 4 defenders are solid and can hold their own against any player. Baxter and Peters are complete midfielders who will aid in both attacking and defensive phase. Baxter and Rooney primarily will be lynchpins who will dictate the play when the team has the all. Bale and Gallacher both possess the ability to take on any defender on their own and also provide a presence out wide to stretch the play and create space for others. All 4 attacking players are also capable of converting any chance.
 
I struggle to see this as anything other than a draw. Why was that option removed?

Gio has more oomph going forward, but I really rate crappy's defence there.
 
Here are the player profiles I forgot to link in the OP.

PLAYER PROFILES

GEORGE BANKS

The best keeper in the draft by a country mile.

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ASHLEY COLE
The most defensively astute left-back since Paolo Maldini. Provides plenty of pace and positioning to shackle the finest wingers while his nippy and incisive give-and-go game makes him a productive outlet on the left flank.

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GEORGE YOUNG
A man mountain who stood 6'2 and weighed in at 15 stone of bristing Scottish muscle. A natural leader who captained Scotland 48 times in his 53 national appearances, impressing directly against the likes of Tom Finney and Duncan Edwards. Young was also the captain of Rangers and its famous Iron Curtain defence that was widely regarded as the best in Britain during the post-war period.

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DES WALKER
Electric centre-half who was impeccable in the tackle and ruthlessly efficient in his man-marking. Walker had few if any peers from 1988-1992, starring at both the 1990 World Cup (where his job on Van Basten is well remembered) and Euro 1992.




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WILLIE MILLER
Arguably Scotland’s greatest ever centre-back, Miller captained his country in an era where Scotland enjoyed an abundance of riches in talent, his consistent excellence keeping the higher profile Alan Hansen out of the starting eleven. At club level, Miller dedicated his entire career to Aberdeen, leading them with great distinction as they broke the Old Firm monopoly and achieved success on the continental stage. In Aberdeen’s conquest of the 1983 Cup Winners Cup overcoming the likes of Bayern Munich and Real Madrid, Miller was their best player as he nullified the attacking threats of opponents. His mastery of the fundamentals of defending – his first-rate anticipation, impeccable positioning and the cleanest tackling - attracted the highest praise.



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DAVID MEIKLEJOHN
A strong contender for the greatest ever Rangers player, Born and raised in the shadow of Ibrox, Meiklejohn was comfortable at centre-half, right back and in midfield. Regarded by the old timers as John Greig with skill. An inspirational leader who won 12 league titles with Rangers and was famous for his shackling of Dixie Dean in a 2-0 win over England in 1931.



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ALAN MULLERY
Proper, all-round midfielder who contributed all over the park. An important part of England's 1970 vintage which was for many an even better outfit than 1966. Mullery replaced Stiles in the heart of midfield and was a tough and energetic midfield general capable of scoring goals like this.

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DAVID PLATT
Another all-round midfielder whose graft, use of the ball but above all exceptional goalscoring ability made him one of the most sought after players in European football in the early 1990s. Amassed 27 goals in 62 caps - boasting a near 1 in 2 record - impressive for a striker, extraordinary for a midfielder.

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ALEX JAMES

The Wee Wizard was one of the finest players in the world during the 1930s whose unique passing and vision provided countless assists for Herbert Chapman's all-conquering Arsenal side.


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ALAN MORTON

The Wee Blue Devil is most famous for his part in the Wembley Wizards' 5-1 demolition of England in 1928 where Morton laid on three goals. Classic winger, diminutive in stature standing at just 5'4, but whose low centre of gravity enabled him to twist and speed away from defenders. Morton's own record against England over the course of 11 games reads 7 wins and 3 defeats (2 of them at the tail-end of his career). Has a strong argument to be considered the greatest left-winger in the entire draft (bar Best) and, along with James and Dean, would have been contending for Ballon D'Ors had such an award existed between the two wars.


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TOM FINNEY
Wing wizard and goalscorer rolled into one whose all-round game saw him considered by many of his peers as the standout of a richly talented era in English football. Two-footed, "a surging, swerving dribbler" who was comfortable across the front line.





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JIMMY GREAVES
The top scorer in the English top tier a record six times and England's fourth highest international goalscorer with 44 goals in just 57 games. Tottenham Hotspur's highest ever goalscorer (268 goals), the highest goalscorer in the history of English top-flight football (357 goals), and has also scored more hat-tricks (six) for England than anyone else. Supreme finisher, likely the best the British game has ever seen, who was quick, always found space and always made the right decision.



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I need Gio and Chester to decide which one of them actually had the 2nd best defender in the Draft. I can't read it in every thread :p

agree with anto so far that this is looking like a score draw
 
I need Gio and Chester to decide which one of them actually had the 2nd best defender in the Draft. I can't read it in every thread :p

agree with anto so far that this is looking like a score draw
That was Crappy and Ferdinand there. Although I'd probably rate Ferdinand even higher, alongside Moore. It's Steve Bruce who looks a wee bit out of place in this rarefied company.
 
That was Crappy and Ferdinand there. Although I'd probably rate Ferdinand even higher, alongside Moore. It's Steve Bruce who looks a wee bit out of place in this rarefied company.


Ahh... that's my fantastic job of reading properly :lol:

I agree on Bruce though. Think he might be a little out of his depth. .. especially against some of those attacking players.
 
@Gio, you really did get Gordon Banks for 10M. Not Mary Poppins' George, Gordon feckin Banks.

Here are the player profiles I forgot to link in the OP.

PLAYER PROFILES

GEORGE BANKS

The best keeper in the draft by a country mile.

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Bobby Robson, at the front desk of an England hotel abroad, calls Bryan Robson's room to tell him everyone else is on the coach to go to the match, saying: 'Let's go, Bobby.' Captain Marvel comes out of the lift a minute or two later and says: 'Ready boss... but I'm Bryan... you're Bobby.'
 
Ferdinand is the second best defender in this draft. NQAT IMO. If I remember correctly, @peterstorey who saw both Rio and Moore, reckons Rio was better actually.

Bruce is being underrated as I thought he would be. He was one half of United team's CD that won multiple league titles and cups and yet people would have him down as a passenger. Non sense. Bruce as a part of that back 4 is no where near being a liability. It is not as if Rio is going to run 50 yards upfield, leaving him alone at the back.
 
Gio's assertion that my midfield lacks a traditional defensive destroyer seems correct. But it is too simplistic to declare that every team needs certain player of some kind. Look at the current Real Madrid 11, who are one of the best 2 teams in Europe right now, their CM of Kroos and Modric also lack a traditional DM. I have already betrayed my intention of playing an attacking game and winning the game by out scoring the opponent. I intend to play this game on front foot and believe I have the attacking players to score and the defense to soak up the opposition's attacks.
 
Gio's assertion that my midfield lacks a traditional defensive destroyer seems correct. But it is too simplistic to declare that every team needs certain player of some kind. Look at the current Real Madrid 11, who are one of the best 2 teams in Europe right now, their CM of Kroos and Modric also lack a traditional DM. I have already betrayed my intention of playing an attacking game and winning the game by out scoring the opponent. I intend to play this game on front foot and believe I have the attacking players to score and the defense to soak up the opposition's attacks.
That approach is valid when you are guaranteed 75% of the ball. In the nip-and-tuck world of the draft, where we all have the same budget and player resources, it's fatal. Especially with an attack as multi-talented as my own.
 
That approach is valid when you are guaranteed 75% of the ball. In the nip-and-tuck world of the draft, where we all have the same budget and player resources, it's fatal. Especially with an attack as multi-talented as my own.

I don't agree that unless you have 75% of possession you need a destroyer in there. That is true for teams like Barca, who commit both of their full backs forward at the same time and have one of the central defenders running with the ball forward many a times as well.

My back 4 is a traditional british back 4 where the two central defenders will stick to their job of defending (with Rio being the defender who will play the ball from the back), and two full backs while making requite forward runs are not going to over commit like modern full backs such as Evra, Alves etc.

Then it is not as if both of my CMs are purely attacking midfielders, just that not of them is a pure DM who will sit in the front of the defense. Will I concede in this match? May be. Do I think I will score more than yourself? Yes.
 
He's no George Banks, but Goram was a class act and, at his peak, one of the best around.

Ever the gentleman Gio, unlike that gollum antohan who will play any trick in the book to win a match up :D
 
I don't agree that unless you have 75% of possession you need a destroyer in there. That is true for teams like Barca, who commit both of their full backs forward at the same time and have one of the central defenders running with the ball forward many a times as well.

My back 4 is a traditional british back 4 where the two central defenders will stick to their job of defending (with Rio being the defender who will play the ball from the back), and two full backs while making requite forward runs are not going to over commit like modern full backs such as Evra, Alves etc.

Then it is not as if both of my CMs are purely attacking midfielders, just that not of them is a pure DM who will sit in the front of the defense. Will I concede in this match? May be. Do I think I will score more than yourself? Yes.
Well there is Jim Baxter, a gifted but lazy inside-left / left-half, and Martin Peters, a talented, auxillary attacking midfielder. To bring it into the modern day, it's much like having Juan Roman Riquelme and Frank Lampard as your central midfield duo.
 
Well there is Jim Baxter, a gifted but lazy inside-left / left-half, and Martin Peters, a talented, auxillary attacking midfielder. To bring it into the modern day, it's much like having Juan Roman Riquelme and Frank Lampard as your central midfield duo.

I would concede that perhaps you know more of Baxter than me but I definitely disagree that his modern equivalent is Riquelme. Nothing I have read or seen of Baxter suggests that he was a no.10. He is probably not the type to man mark someone one but definitely someone who will tackle about to win the ball back and once he has the ball, none better on the park to make it work.

And this is what wiki says about Peters defensive ethic in England team -

"The England coach had been toying with using a system which allowed narrow play through the centre, not operating with conventional wingers but instead with fitter, centralised players who could show willing in defence as well as spread the ball and their runs in attack. Peters therefore had become an ideal player for this 4–1-3-2 system, elegant in his distribution and strong in his forward running, yet showing the stamina, discipline and pace to get back and help the defence when required. This system was dubbed "the wingless wonders"

Your assertion that I am playing with 2 CMs who will be passengers when it comes to defensive play is simply wrong.
 
Ever the gentleman Gio, unlike that gollum antohan who will play any trick in the book to win a match up :D

Bear in mind he said Goram was no George Banks, let alone Gordon...

The funny thing is a three hour difference determined the outcome, you could have each others' keepers right now :lol:
 
Peters is going to work back which is fine and good. But asking him to ensure the midfield is anchored is a big ask for a predominantly attack-minded player. He'll be up against it when set alongside Baxter. After all if Keane and Scholes didn't quite cut it at the business end of Europe, then it's hard to imagine how Baxter and Peters will effectively anchor a midfield in an all-time draft.

This may be controversial but IMO Scholes in a 2 man CM pre 2002 was one of the reasons we never repeated our 99 success. Infact as much as we would want to big up our 99 team, I am not sure if we were the best team in Europe then. It was the will power of Keane in semis and the astonishing injury time in final that saw us win the CL final not us being decidedly better than Juve or Bayern. After that we got schooled by Redondo in Europe and Fergie decided to add Veron in our CM, sidelining Scholes. That did not work out well but there after Scholes had the best season of his career in 2002 playing behind Ruud as no.10. Some dull seasons followed and then a renaissance as a deep lying CM in 2006 when he was one of our best 3 players. That was when he was at his world class best IMO, when he truly got to run the show.
 
I don't agree that unless you have 75% of possession you need a destroyer in there. That is true for teams like Barca, who commit both of their full backs forward at the same time and have one of the central defenders running with the ball forward many a times as well.
It' a fair point about a traditional back four. But I'd really struggle to conceive of a team without the advantage of the massive resource gulf that Barca/Real/etc can command that really succeeded with such a lightweight and attack-minded central midfield area.
 
Peters is going to work back which is fine and good. But asking him to ensure the midfield is anchored is a big ask for a predominantly attack-minded player. He'll be up against it when set alongside Baxter. After all if Keane and Scholes didn't quite cut it at the business end of Europe, then it's hard to imagine how Baxter and Peters will effectively anchor a midfield in an all-time draft.

haha. I am hardly up against a midfield that has a player of caliber of Redondo in it. Don't know much about Miklejohn but information on net seems to be contradictory if his best role was as a defender or DM. Keane-Scholes CM also became an issue against a defense where our 99 attack could not score easily, here I would back my front 4 to score at least a couple against your back 4. Infact your whole set up suits my strategy of basically outscoring you rather than play a cautious game of trying to secure a 1-0 win.

In any case, I reject your assertion that Baxter would not be helping out defensively at all. What is also not to be forgotten is that work rate of Rooney in the midfield battle. In your write up, you mention that your 2 DMs would cancel out Baxter, ignoring that Rooney would often be operating in similar area.
 
The only interest Baxter is going to have in tracking back is if Alex James has a bottle of malt in those long shorts of his.
 
It' a fair point about a traditional back four. But I'd really struggle to conceive of a team without the advantage of the massive resource gulf that Barca/Real/etc can command that really succeeded with such a lightweight and attack-minded central midfield area.

Personally I would discount Barca all together here. Their playing tactics and strategy has no bearing on this match up as I see it. Madrid never play a game that requires them to dominate possession. I do think their current CM duo could land them in trouble if they come up against a team like Bayern who would dominate the proceedings. Here, do you have the 11 to dominate my team throughout the match? No. I back my 11 to see enough of the ball and my CMs to aid the attacking 4 when I have it to do the required damage.

In any case, I have made my thoughts clear about the midfield battle, its for the voters to decide now if they agree with your assertion or my argument.
 
The only interest Baxter is going to have in tracking back is if Alex James has a bottle of malt in those long shorts of his.

:lol:

http://inbedwithmaradona.com/journal/2011/11/7/slim-jim-baxter-and-a-game-of-three-card-brag.html

A fantastic article on a true midfield genius.

Crappy's team looks good but I'm not too enamoured by that midfield duo. Baxter was a talented left half who frequently played with hard working defensive midfielders(Bremner for Scotland and Greig for his club if I'm not mistaken). He doesn't seem suited to a midfield duo role esp with Peters at his side.

Both are attacking players who really can't hold a midfield on their own imo. Peters was hardworking but wasn't that great defensively to play in a midfield duo esp alongside Baxter. It just seems like a midfield which won't be able to function defensively.

@crappycraperson who are your subs?
 
:lol:

http://inbedwithmaradona.com/journal/2011/11/7/slim-jim-baxter-and-a-game-of-three-card-brag.html

A fantastic article on a true midfield genius.

Crappy's team looks good but I'm not too enamoured by that midfield duo. Baxter was a talented left half who frequently played with hard working defensive midfielders(Bremner for Scotland and Greig for his club if I'm not mistaken). He doesn't seem suited to a midfield duo role esp with Peters at his side.

Both are attacking players who really can't hold a midfield on their own imo. Peters was hardworking but wasn't that great defensively to play in a midfield duo esp alongside Baxter. It just seems like a midfield which won't be able to function defensively.

@crappycraperson who are your subs?

As said above, i have said enough about my CM. My midfield could be an issue against some sides but not this opposition. Here it will be more of a case of his 2 DMs trying to shackle my midfielders plus Rooney. My 11 will play this on front foot rather than back foot.

I see you see it the other way and have voted accordingly which is fair and I would leave it at that.
 
As said above, i have said enough about my CM. My midfield could be an issue against some sides but not this opposition. Here it will be more of a case of his 2 DMs trying to shackle my midfielders plus Rooney. My 11 will play this on front foot rather than back foot.

I see you see it the other way and have voted accordingly which is fair and I would leave it at that.
The beauty of Meiklejohn and Mullery is that they're both proper all-round central midfielders who can contribute at both ends of the park. Not only will they have the defensive nous to shackle Baxter and Peters, they can ensure effective transition when possession is recovered, feeding James, Finney, Morton and Greaves with little resistance from the opposing midfield.
 
The beauty of Meiklejohn and Mullery is that they're both proper all-round central midfielders who can contribute at both ends of the park. Not only will they have the defensive nous to shackle Baxter and Peters, they can ensure effective transition when possession is recovered, feeding James, Finney, Morton and Greaves with little resistance from the opposing midfield.

Yes. Baxter and Peters would standy whole your CMs skate through the area :wenger: I don't agree that your two DMs would be much cop offensively at all. Your own write up pretty much owns up to this fact since you have James to link up the attack with midfield. You are giving the impression that your CM is composed of Redondo + Falcao which is false. In fact having read your players' profiles again, it seems that you believe this 11 is good enough to play the final in this draft. I don't even agree that your 2 DMs are enough to cope with my midfield plus Rooney.
 
Anyway I am off to bed.

My fundamental take on this match is that my front 4 with the aid of my 2 CMs at times (and someone like Irwin), is plenty for the opposition defense. Both the wingers are good enough to take on their men and attack the box/stretch the play out wide. Rooney will be his usual workhorse self, making life difficult for both his midfielders and defenders. My back 4 as a unit is better but my attacking approach will probably see the opposition score once, regardless if that happens or not, I am confident to score twice at least.

I will any question Gio raises or anyone else for that matter when I am up tomorrow.
 
Yes. Baxter and Peters would standy whole your CMs skate through the area :wenger: I don't agree that your two DMs would be much cop offensively at all. Your own write up pretty much owns up to this fact since you have James to link up the attack with midfield. You are giving the impression that your CM is composed of Redondo + Falcao which is false. In fact having read your players' profiles again, it seems that you believe this 11 is good enough to play the final in this draft.
Well a player as hugely talented as Baxter needs a midfield to be built around him. It's the only way to get the best out of his abilities. Ask him to hold and do the dirty work is a waste of his ability and a bad fit given his lack of appetite for hard work and defensive discipline. That's why his signature performances, the wins over England in 1963 and 1967, had Dave Mackay and Billy Bremner working their bollocks off in midfield.
 
Well a player as hugely talented as Baxter needs a midfield to be built around him. It's the only way to get the best out of his abilities. Ask him to hold and do the dirty work is a waste of his ability and a bad fit given his lack of appetite for hard work and defensive discipline. That's why his signature performances, the wins over England in 1963 and 1967, had Dave Mackay and Billy Bremner working their bollocks off in midfield.

Who is asking him to change his game? I have just mentioned that he won't be a defensive passenger just like he won't be marking anyone, which IMO is true.

I have made my team's philosophy pretty clear, it is a very much a 'we will score more than you' type of set ups. The front 4, the two CMs and the solid back 4 are all a part of that setup. It is not a perfect team but it can not be at round 1 of a draft. The CM argument of Keane-Scholes you brought up is valid against better teams that will spring up in later rounds, not the 11 you have out there right now.

I reject the monotonous 'tactics' that have come to dominate the draft games here. The notion that every CM must have a destroyer is very much a part of that. My CM fits in with how I will approach and win this game.