@robinamicrowave I'm delaying a response to your excellent post until I watch the last episodes and learn what punishment the writers have subjected Bojack to
Television BoJack Horseman
- Thread starter Scrumpet
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I stopped watching somewhere in the beginning of the 6th season. It stopped being funny and became too full of itself of it's self-loathing and depressing drama that I frankly didn't care about anymore.
Binged the final season in one night. The penultimate episode is amazing. The finale takes an arguably softer stance than it could have, but feck it, for a show that never dwelled on happiness i can understand it trying to end on something not completely depressing, something more about life itself. Life is shit yes but it carries on. Amen.
it’s one of the best shows of all time frankly. Don’t listen to @Snow. How the feck could you make it to the beginning of season 6 and then tune out? Youre either fully invested by then or not. If you made it to the final season, ultimately, it doesn’t disappoint.
it’s one of the best shows of all time frankly. Don’t listen to @Snow. How the feck could you make it to the beginning of season 6 and then tune out? Youre either fully invested by then or not. If you made it to the final season, ultimately, it doesn’t disappoint.
I watched s1e01 and never went further. Didn't seem very clever or funny.
First six episodes are very inconsistent.
Watched all eight final episodes in one sitting yesterday. Very pleased with what they did.
Now re-watching season 6 in its entirety.
Now re-watching season 6 in its entirety.
you should keep watching. it’s brilliant.it takes a few episodes to get going though.
I don't see a point in keeping on watching a show if I don't like it anymore. I stopped watching How I Met Your Mother with like 2 seasons left. Finished with Game of Thrones after 5 seasons. Didn't enjoy the 5th season of Bojack all to much and thought the first two episodes of the 6th were bad so I stopped. Just weren't many laughs left and I had enough of the dreary points about alcoholism and addiction by then that I didn't feel the need to be preached too if I wasn't getting any laughs out of it.
I liked the first 4 seasons and it's a show I'd recommend.
Liked 6B much more than 6A. I am not sure how I feel about the ending.
Overall, loved the show, definitely one of my fav of all time. It did peak with S 2/3/4 with S1 or 5 being the weakest seasons. A lot of iconic episodes though that you can enjoy as standalone ones so very easy to rewatch.
wish they had actually gone through with the ending of penultimate episode and the last episode was just about rest of the cast moving on with their lives
Anyone have rivers for season 6 part 2? Still can't find it anywhere
I think the fact it was a cartoon people naturally assumed ,atleast at first, that it would be a joke-a-minute South Park-esq cold satire on Hollywood. That's not what we got and it was far better for it,not that I dislike South Park.
The fact Bojack went down so many interesting and thought provoking avenues,such as mental illness,alcoholism, and effectively pulling it off without it looking silly or crass is a huge credit to the creators working on the show.
The fact Bojack went down so many interesting and thought provoking avenues,such as mental illness,alcoholism, and effectively pulling it off without it looking silly or crass is a huge credit to the creators working on the show.
Sad it ended. Havent seen any show potray mental illness, depression and addiction the way Bojack Horseman did. Almost cried after watching the 2nd last episode. Never connected this much with any show or movie before.
One of the GOAT shows IMO. After first half of season ones, there was minimal quality drop and it ended on a perfect note..
Leaving Bojack alive but without the people he cares about (Diane said she "knew" him, PC said she would find him an agent rather than do it himself, and he really doesn't "like" Mr PB) is incredible. Sometimes living is harder than dying
If I'd read that spoilered bit immediately I finished watching the last episode I would have agreed with you, but with some reflection I've come to the conclusion that it stopped being that kind of show after season 4. Killing him would have undermined the ethos of the show.
In the end, it's revealed itself to be a show about working out where the lines of forgiveness and self-improvement can be drawn. I think giving BoJack a harrowing death would have allowed him to be forgiven to some degree, to be romanticised and remembered as someone who "Yeah, made mistakes, but was ultimately just trying to do the right thing". That wouldn't be a true picture of him as a person. He has far too many skeletons in his closet to have a legacy.
Sometimes, living is the hardest thing to do, and BoJack has been forced to do just that. Only, while he might have been given a second chance after seeing the view from halfway down, he now has to work on himself entirely by himself. There's nobody to really rely on. Diane and Todd are gone having moved onto new lives, Princess Carolyn won't work with him anymore, and Hollyhock clearly told him she had no interest in knowing him. His only remaining friend is Mr. Peanutbutter.
Hell, he's even been edited out of Horsin' Around, the only piece of media he's properly, genuinely, actually remembered for.
This way, by being made to live out his life quietly, BoJack doesn't get to be the centre of attention, which he absolutely would have been in death. He's going to go back to prison, he's going to complete the rest of his sentence, and then he's going to set about fixing himself in the real world. Out of the spotlight, away from the media, mostly alone. An ordinary citizen. He hasn't gotten off scot-free here, but there's a degree of hope that he might do something useful now.
In the end, it's revealed itself to be a show about working out where the lines of forgiveness and self-improvement can be drawn. I think giving BoJack a harrowing death would have allowed him to be forgiven to some degree, to be romanticised and remembered as someone who "Yeah, made mistakes, but was ultimately just trying to do the right thing". That wouldn't be a true picture of him as a person. He has far too many skeletons in his closet to have a legacy.
Sometimes, living is the hardest thing to do, and BoJack has been forced to do just that. Only, while he might have been given a second chance after seeing the view from halfway down, he now has to work on himself entirely by himself. There's nobody to really rely on. Diane and Todd are gone having moved onto new lives, Princess Carolyn won't work with him anymore, and Hollyhock clearly told him she had no interest in knowing him. His only remaining friend is Mr. Peanutbutter.
Hell, he's even been edited out of Horsin' Around, the only piece of media he's properly, genuinely, actually remembered for.
This way, by being made to live out his life quietly, BoJack doesn't get to be the centre of attention, which he absolutely would have been in death. He's going to go back to prison, he's going to complete the rest of his sentence, and then he's going to set about fixing himself in the real world. Out of the spotlight, away from the media, mostly alone. An ordinary citizen. He hasn't gotten off scot-free here, but there's a degree of hope that he might do something useful now.
BOJACK: Okay, you got me! My parents gave me an internalized self-hatred of horses. So my horse body is a prison that I can never escape. This manifests in rotten behaviour because I subconsciously believe I deserve to be punished, but, being famous, I'm never punished, so I act out even more. And since this pattern is so woven into my identity, it is unfathomable to me that it can ever be curbed, so instead, I drink! So, the only way I can progress is to return to my life as a sober man and finally hold myself accountable for my actions, past and future. Oh my God, is this what therapy is?
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Also, a line from s6e6:If I'd read that spoilered bit immediately I finished watching the last episode I would have agreed with you, but with some reflection I've come to the conclusion that it stopped being that kind of show after season 4. Killing him would have undermined the ethos of the show.
In the end, it's revealed itself to be a show about working out where the lines of forgiveness and self-improvement can be drawn. I think giving BoJack a harrowing death would have allowed him to be forgiven to some degree, to be romanticised and remembered as someone who "Yeah, made mistakes, but was ultimately just trying to do the right thing". That wouldn't be a true picture of him as a person. He has far too many skeletons in his closet to have a legacy.
Sometimes, living is the hardest thing to do, and BoJack has been forced to do just that. Only, while he might have been given a second chance after seeing the view from halfway down, he now has to work on himself entirely by himself. There's nobody to really rely on. Diane and Todd are gone having moved onto new lives, Princess Carolyn won't work with him anymore, and Hollyhock clearly told him she had no interest in knowing him. His only remaining friend is Mr. Peanutbutter.
Hell, he's even been edited out of Horsin' Around, the only piece of media he's properly, genuinely, actually remembered for.
This way, by being made to live out his life quietly, BoJack doesn't get to be the centre of attention, which he absolutely would have been in death. He's going to go back to prison, he's going to complete the rest of his sentence, and then he's going to set about fixing himself in the real world. Out of the spotlight, away from the media, mostly alone. An ordinary citizen. He hasn't gotten off scot-free here, but there's a degree of hope that he might do something useful now.
BOJACK: Okay, you got me! My parents gave me an internalized self-hatred of horses. So my horse body is a prison that I can never escape. This manifests in rotten behaviour because I subconsciously believe I deserve to be punished, but, being famous, I'm never punished, so I act out even more. And since this pattern is so woven into my identity, it is unfathomable to me that it can ever be curbed, so instead, I drink! So, the only way I can progress is to return to my life as a sober man and finally hold myself accountable for my actions, past and future. Oh my God, is this what therapy is?
My biggest problem with the ending was
him going to the prison. Reminded me of when House jumped the shark with House going to prison after crashing his car for no reason. I guess they wanted to make the statement that BoJack literally has to go to prison to remain sober for a lengthy period of time? Still it does nothing for me. Thematically the ending of course was about BoJack losing all of his friends or support system. I don't know how I feel about that either since it doubles down on the abandonment Bojack already went through in latter half of S6. Regardless, same could have been better achieved by showing his friends helping him post his over dose and then having the hard convo of cutting ties with him. The way it was delivered instead with a time jump was jarring firstly since they used it as a device to troll audience about him being dead. The same is now going to lead to hundreds of blogs about how he is really dead and the last episode was also in his mind or some other explanation. Second the jump was too jarring in terms of other characters' arcs. It felt like the a season had ended with previous episode and then the show got cancelled so the show runners just created a series finale. I don't have a problem with ambiguous or open ended endings but did not like this one.
I think the purpose of sending BoJack to prison was part of the argument about whether he deserves redemption, or what he has to do to be redeemed. The show's answer seems to be "Yes, he deserves redemption, but not on his own terms". Not sending BoJack to prison would raise all sorts of questions about the moral centre of the writers. Regardless of the moral crimes he committed like sleeping with Emily, or ruining Todd's chance at fame, or turning his back on Herb, he also committed a series of actual crimes. He supplied alcohol to minors and nearly caused death by negligence, he deliberately staged a car crash and almost caused death by dangerous driving, he assaulted a co-worker, he dealt drugs and caused Sarah Lynn's death, he then wasted police time and lied about the circumstances of Sarah Lynn's death, he broke into several peoples' houses, the incident with Penny was dodgy at best etc. For him to commit all of those crimes and not be sent to prison could easily be seen as the show shirking from confronting itself, which it'd done such a good job of up to then. BoJack's asked why he's being sent to prison and his answer is simple and all-encompassing: "Well, a bit of everything really". I think, by doing this, the show has made the point that the likes of Kevin Spacey, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby (or Hank Hippopopalous) etc. don't deserve death, but they should at least be properly, actually punished and made to realise the error of their ways, instead of being protected by their status and wealth. BoJack's hardly as bad as any of those guys, but he doesn't deserve to get away with his actions either.
What I will say, though, is that it seems to be coming clear in the aftermath of the season that these final 16 episodes were supposed to be 24, and that Netflix's decision to cancel the show changed things somewhere along the way. Apparently season 6 would have followed BoJack's time in rehab and his journey to self-healing, only for the reporters to start digging into Sarah Lynn's death and for Hollyhock to find out what happened with Penny. Then season 7 would have picked up where 6B did - BoJack an acting teacher, the reporters getting closer and closer to the truth he's tried to keep hidden. I think that's why, instead of writing their way through a year with BoJack in prison, the show just skipped ahead to him being given time out for PC and Judah's wedding. I wouldn't be surprised if we were supposed to see more of Mr. Peanutbutter's reaction to Pickles leaving him for Joey Pogo, or Penny & Charlotte's reaction to BoJack being put on trial, or Diane and Guy deciding to get together, or Todd moving in with his girlfriend, etc. Netflix's decision to cancel the show probably resulted in these storylines being shortened and stated rather than explored and analysed. Emotionally, though, and logically, everything still tracked. I think if I can come away from a TV show understanding what it was trying to say then it's done its job. I suppose I view it similarly to how I view the end of Game of Thrones: Did they take as much time as I wanted them to? No. But did I understand the point the creators were trying to make? Absolutely. It's the same with this.
I think there's a difference between an ambiguous ending and an open ending, and we got the latter. If people want to come up with stupid theories about whether he died in the penultimate episode then let them - it won't change anything about your personal reading of the show. Heck, I'm a big part of the Game of Thrones fanbase and you'd be surprised how many people think Daenerys is still alive, or who thought that one character was another character in a mask all along. Stupid theories are just part of watching TV.
What I will say, though, is that it seems to be coming clear in the aftermath of the season that these final 16 episodes were supposed to be 24, and that Netflix's decision to cancel the show changed things somewhere along the way. Apparently season 6 would have followed BoJack's time in rehab and his journey to self-healing, only for the reporters to start digging into Sarah Lynn's death and for Hollyhock to find out what happened with Penny. Then season 7 would have picked up where 6B did - BoJack an acting teacher, the reporters getting closer and closer to the truth he's tried to keep hidden. I think that's why, instead of writing their way through a year with BoJack in prison, the show just skipped ahead to him being given time out for PC and Judah's wedding. I wouldn't be surprised if we were supposed to see more of Mr. Peanutbutter's reaction to Pickles leaving him for Joey Pogo, or Penny & Charlotte's reaction to BoJack being put on trial, or Diane and Guy deciding to get together, or Todd moving in with his girlfriend, etc. Netflix's decision to cancel the show probably resulted in these storylines being shortened and stated rather than explored and analysed. Emotionally, though, and logically, everything still tracked. I think if I can come away from a TV show understanding what it was trying to say then it's done its job. I suppose I view it similarly to how I view the end of Game of Thrones: Did they take as much time as I wanted them to? No. But did I understand the point the creators were trying to make? Absolutely. It's the same with this.
I think there's a difference between an ambiguous ending and an open ending, and we got the latter. If people want to come up with stupid theories about whether he died in the penultimate episode then let them - it won't change anything about your personal reading of the show. Heck, I'm a big part of the Game of Thrones fanbase and you'd be surprised how many people think Daenerys is still alive, or who thought that one character was another character in a mask all along. Stupid theories are just part of watching TV.
Loved the penultimate episode, one of the best I have ever seen.
I do want to know though
I do want to know though
What was in the letter that Hollyhock sent him. Was it a "I'm moving on" letter that began his bender?
"Jesus Christ. What's the point of working on myself and getting sober and getting better if no matter what they're are people out there waiting to tear me down"
Sums up the latter part of this show.
Sums up the latter part of this show.
Yeah, he didn't even read past the first line. He just opened it, read that she wanted nothing to do with him anymore, and went back into the party.
I love this show. One of the best I've watched.
I don't know anyone else who's watched it I don't think. I regularly recommend it to people but still no one seems to watch it. Is it because it's a dead serious show masquerading as a cartoon comedy with talking animals?
I don't know anyone else who's watched it I don't think. I regularly recommend it to people but still no one seems to watch it. Is it because it's a dead serious show masquerading as a cartoon comedy with talking animals?
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Missed a trick not finishing it with the penultimate episode. Still very good, and one of the best shows ever.
Bojack is such a cnut.
The show has done a good job of making it painfully clear. The whole "power dynamics" thing was a fecking reach
The prison sentence felt like such a cop out.
"Oh yeah, I suppose he deserves some legitimate punishment for killing a young girl."
Sarah Lynn was a 30 something year old addict who willingly took heroin
Wasn't the prison sentence for lying to police?
Same here. Didn't find it funny.
But people are obsessed with it. Might give it another try at some point.
I mean, people aren't obsessed with the comedy of it. If you think it's gonna be a funny show, then you'll be disappointed.
I tried watching it and the first few episodes really give that impression and I gave up on it. Everyone seems to love it though, i might just skip the 1st season and watch from there.
The prison sentence was for breaking into the house that wasn't his anymore, but as pointed out by BoJack, also pretty much "for everything".
Just stick with it. It's 12 episodes of 20 odd minutes.
Ah right
Again, the second half of this season was a big vindictive circlejerk
I think that would have sent the wrong message.
Obviously we all have different readings of the entertainment we watch, but to kill BoJack would have said (to me at least) that people who believe they're broken or damaged, and so try to make amends and heal themselves, are marked for death no matter what. There's nothing they can do - once they're broken, there's no fixing them. Goodbye, the end. So as much as I was initially cool with the idea of them going down that road, and felt like they'd backed out of it when the beeps started again during the credits of 'The View from Halfway Down', the final episode (and final scene) made a really strong case for itself. "Life's a bitch and then you keep on living" seems to be the message it's asking us to take away, which aligns nicely with the "It gets easier, but you've got to do it every day" advice from the end of season 2. I'm not sure how BoJack could make things easier if he's not allowed to do it every day, being dead and all.
Yeah I don't agree. It wouldn't have been a universal message. It would have been an outcome for BoJack specifically, which would have made sense - without any notion of him "deserving" it or not.
But TV shows like BoJack Horseman that deal with mental health issues, toxic behaviour, and forgiveness - they have a level of responsibility that they're acutely aware of. I know a lot of people, and have seen a lot of reaction from people online, who became so addicted to the show because they saw themselves in BoJack and panicked about what that meant. They were after answers. If this show gets to those people, gives them a detailed understanding of mental illness that they've never seen before on TV, and then it tells them that they're not doomed and incapable of healing... I think that's pretty dangerous.
Not going to respond to the rest, cos this is absolutely bollocks.
I quite liked the recent Rick & Morty episode when they had Rick to understand that his attempts to control everything around him — or even anything in the universe like his personal toilet-planet, are pointless and, more so, toxic. It was done through a side-character who had understood that himself, quit his job to finally enjoy his life... and when Rick came to visit him to tell him that he was right about the control thing, he found out that the recently enlightened character had died in a tragic accident. Because life is fecking unpredictable and you can't control it and you understanding that you can't control it doesn't magically give you a control over your life, like many movies with the same plot imply.
The theme is slightly different, yet the decision to kill off that character was a great way of escaping the boring and cliched plot. And I think that BoJack had missed that chance when they've backed down. As for the social responsibility, I'm with @Rooney in Paris on this one.
See, this is why I always make longer posts when I'm talking about TV shows and films what have you - I always like to fully explain myself. I cut myself short today so we could keep the chat going and, inevitably, something like this happens.
I'm not saying shows like BoJack Horseman have a responsibility from the get go, but it's something that just comes about naturally as they go on. As more and more people look to the show for answers or solutions to their own problems - which isn't advisable at all but absolutely happens - it becomes the writers' responsibility to make sure they keep everything carefully balanced. They have to stay self-aware and in tune with what they're creating. It's sadly an inevitable consequence that entertainment/art willing to explore darker subject matter with its main characters will eventually write itself into a corner if certain steps aren't taken to challenge the institution. That's why shows like The Sopranos, or It's Always Sunny, or Seinfeld, are celebrated as much as they are - eventually (or just regularly) they tear down their protagonists to maintain a balanced moral centre. It's either that or you get shows like Friends that don't ever recognise the monsters they've created - it just ends up enabling their bad behaviour in the end. And like, look at Joker - this very long piece explains pretty clearly why it's a catastrophic failure of narrative framing. It's something that many critics have praised the writers of BoJack Horseman for as it's gone on because they've understood the limits of their own creation. If BoJack had been enabled they'd have created a monster. They didn't enable him, so the monster was never born.
But at the same time, there's a line between enabling a monster and simply punishing a broken individual, which is what BoJack was. Killing him, as I said, would have been a step too far in keeping things in check. After this point you could just copy and paste what I said earlier about why their decision not to kill him was the correct one.
I'm not saying shows like BoJack Horseman have a responsibility from the get go, but it's something that just comes about naturally as they go on. As more and more people look to the show for answers or solutions to their own problems - which isn't advisable at all but absolutely happens - it becomes the writers' responsibility to make sure they keep everything carefully balanced. They have to stay self-aware and in tune with what they're creating. It's sadly an inevitable consequence that entertainment/art willing to explore darker subject matter with its main characters will eventually write itself into a corner if certain steps aren't taken to challenge the institution. That's why shows like The Sopranos, or It's Always Sunny, or Seinfeld, are celebrated as much as they are - eventually (or just regularly) they tear down their protagonists to maintain a balanced moral centre. It's either that or you get shows like Friends that don't ever recognise the monsters they've created - it just ends up enabling their bad behaviour in the end. And like, look at Joker - this very long piece explains pretty clearly why it's a catastrophic failure of narrative framing. It's something that many critics have praised the writers of BoJack Horseman for as it's gone on because they've understood the limits of their own creation. If BoJack had been enabled they'd have created a monster. They didn't enable him, so the monster was never born.
But at the same time, there's a line between enabling a monster and simply punishing a broken individual, which is what BoJack was. Killing him, as I said, would have been a step too far in keeping things in check. After this point you could just copy and paste what I said earlier about why their decision not to kill him was the correct one.
Loved this series. Sad it's gone.
I didn't love this season, it was kind of hard work. Its was well written and very clever but not many laughs
i was pretty glad about the last episode. In lots of ways i think him dieing and being eulogised for the last episode would have been a far easier fate that he didn't particularly deserve. Its funny watching every other character kind of sort their lives out and find happiness and it still feel like a pretty grim season of tv. He kind of remained a cartoon character drinking silly amounts of booze and pills and getting up to hi-jinks like stealing the hollwoo D, or teaching a class of cooky acting students and meeting his long lost sister and it shows fairly explicitly the damage and harm his actions create for his drastically more sympathetic friends. Having to face people after making the choice he made in the penultimate episode and deal with the fall out just felt like following through with the tone of this last season.
Don't think the final season was meant to be funny honestly.It was much more emotional than funny