Blanc still a first teamer?

I BELIEVE THAT WITH THE CURRENT CROP WE CAN WIN THE EPL. (Read it again if you cannot believe it)

But we need to exploit our talent well.

Many slated me when I said that SAF should give a good Ear bashing to the entire team and if threaten their job if needed. Oh God I was critised by both those who loved SAF and those who wanted his head, but then I was proved right.

On Blanc I have showed all my cards on the table. No matter how experienced and good the Frenchman is HE DOES NOT HAVE THE PACE TO PLAY IN A 4 FLAT DEFENSE WHERE THE OFFSIDE TRAP IS OPERATED.
My words are backed from great managers and also backed from experience ( I have seen great players like Mattheus, Bergomi and Baresi suffering from this not suitable tactic)

The conclusion is either we change the defense tactic to exploit Blanc’s talent (ex 5-4-1, Blanc in a deeper role etc)
Or we have to sacrifice Blanc.
 
R United you are probably one of the most enjoyable and intelligent persons inside here.

I am not against SAF quite contrary. I was with him when many wanted his head and I would be with him not because I love him ( I Do) but because I RATE HIM A LOT.

But that doesnt mean that I agree on him 100%.

Yes I agree the 5-4-1 is not feasable ( I am a 4-4-2 lover and u know that) but this tactic would be perfect when we are 1-0 up against a club like liverpool ( and Blanc is perfect for that sweeper role)

What I really want is not a change of tactic but a change of mentality. The defense should play deeper and the offside trap should be twarted. I am not against Blanc's play but against his constantly moving up front, which is making it difficult for him when caught in counter attack.

If Blanc could stay at the back possibly as a sweeper in a 4-4-2 defense ( France had won the world cup by doing so!!!) then its allright for me.

About Brown and Barthez, you are wrong. I have issued a topic about our defense lacking of communication and had Highlighted Barthez and Brown a lot. Barthez is a good keeper but HE NEEDS TO COMMUNICATE MORE WITH HIS DEFENSE. That is the missing piece between him and Schmicke, and an important factor if we want a solid defense.
 
A bit of a broken record hey? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
To maintain the glory of the past ten years we eed to look at developing players rather than short term.

Rio is already a great defender although prone to occasional mistakes. With an experienced player alongside he can eliminate these from his game. Wes and John are highly promising. An experienced player can help them further. Laurent can help these three. It could give us the best central defence in the world - for the next ten years. Mickey and Gary are (I think) 25 and 27.

Twelve months ago our defence was a joke to non United fans. It is much improved and will continue to get better because five of the six regulars still have there peak years ahead.


We are obviously in the top three in England. I don't think Liverpool will win the league so I think it is between us and Arsenal. The Champions League is harder to win for several reasons, including the knockout rounds and the fact that there are more good teams. We are not losing much (if anything ) by playing Laurent this season but the future benefits will be enormous.
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>I BELIEVE THAT WITH THE CURRENT CROP WE CAN WIN THE EPL. (Read it again if you cannot believe it) </strong> <hr></blockquote>

hard to believe considering the number of names you have suggested since i've joined, but i'll take your word for it anyway.

<strong>

But we need to exploit our talent well.

Many slated me when I said that SAF should give a good Ear bashing to the entire team and if threaten their job if needed. Oh God I was critised by both those who loved SAF and those who wanted his head, but then I was proved right.

</strong> <hr></blockquote>

This I agree.

<strong>

On Blanc I have showed all my cards on the table. No matter how experienced and good the Frenchman is HE DOES NOT HAVE THE PACE TO PLAY IN A 4 FLAT DEFENSE WHERE THE OFFSIDE TRAP IS OPERATED.
My words are backed from great managers and also backed from experience ( I have seen great players like Mattheus, Bergomi and Baresi suffering from this not suitable tactic)

The conclusion is either we change the defense tactic to exploit Blanc’s talent (ex 5-4-1, Blanc in a deeper role etc)
Or we have to sacrifice Blanc.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with the other managers' comments of him, but obviously your suggestion of ridding Blanc is not feasible. We have too many injuries in the defence and our players tend to go off form a lot recently so we'll need as many first team players as possible. He is leaving at the end of this season anyway so you'll get your wish.

I don't think SAF will go with 5-4-1 for the following reasons:

1. He brought in Veron so we could control midfield. If he was looking to strengthen the defence Veron would not be here. SAF has a vision to rule the midfield and create games from there - not from the defence.

2. Taking a team from 4-4-2 to 5-4-1 would be a major risk. It's already hard going to 4-5-1 with wings pushed inside, with 5-4-1 we could struggle from lack of attacking game altogether.

3. we didn't have a proper playmaker until Veron arrived. Scholes is a hard man, but he's a quiet lad. Keane takes up the game, but ultimately he's a DM. Becks' best ability is on the right side, while giggs on the left. So with 5-4-1 i think we'd have had more problems scoring goals. In 5-4-1 you need a commanding playmaker in midfield who can hold the ball and create games. Since there are limited number in the attacking team we'll only limit ourselves to counter attacking once every 10 minutes. You need a manager who knows this tactic through and through, and you need players who can operate with this tactic. With our team and SAF's limited exeprience of operating with 4-4-2 for 30 years we could easily get thrashed by the likes of Arsenal who would pound on us non-stop. Because as i said in my article, we only know 4-4-2. SAF only knows 4-4-2 with maybe the forward dropped back. I won't disagree that if SAF's successor is someone like Hitzfeld we may see this formation coming to OT. But not while SAF is still in charge.

Ultimately we should go with a tactic everyone in the team knows best to get the most out of it. 5-4-1 is out of the question. 4-5-1 seems to be giving us a new dimension in the CL and 4-4-2 is the solution for the EPL as we have seen for the past 2 games.
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Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>R United you are probably one of the most enjoyable and intelligent persons inside here.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

is that sarcasm? you have to be clear with comments like this, i've been fooled once too many times. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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It is the first time I have read this thread today and it has surely piqued my curiosity. And I think I have something I would like to contribute. Great start, Devilish...

I am a great admirer of the "Libero" or sweeper position of play that is inherent to a 5-4-1 formation, or that matter, one which is more practised by the nation which has shown the world how to use an attacking sweeper - Germany - the 5-3-2 formation. The epitome of a sweeper surely must have been Franz Beckenbauer and others have followed in his footsteps including a certain Lothar Matthaeus and Matthias Sammer - sad for Germany that they had to lose him when he was at his peak.

But, to get back to the discussion, here, I think Germany and Bayern Munich have both used the 5 guys in the back very effectively, marshalled by a sweeper, a good defender with the heart and ability to go forward in attack to thrust his team. I have to support Devilish in his claim that Manchester United would do really great with a 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 formation. I don't think it reduces our attacking ability by any means. Germany have never been short of attacking options when they needed it. They have always been the come back kings of the game. And they have always done with a 5-3-2. This system can work. At this time, Laurent Blanc, obviously fits the bill as a sweeper, without letting his defence caught when he moves forward.

Question at this stage that could be posed would be maybe - OK, in case we adopt the 5-3-2 now, what happens when Laurent retires at the end of the season, presumably??? Do we need to go work on a system that will die with his going away???

And well, the simple answer to this is that we have in our team a great player in the mould of a Franz Beckenbauer, or more accurately, a Lothar Matthaeus. I hope this player's name jumps at you as it does to me - Roy Keane. A midfield engine in his heyday, that engine loses its ability to some extent in the 30's, as Roy is now. And a sweeper role like Matthaeus adopted at Bayern Munich and for Germany would work admirably for him. And, if Roy Keane works, Manchester United works.

This is a thought that can be worked on. The midfield will have one reduced player in a very competitive department of the squad, yes. But, next season, the problem will be somewhat alleviated pushing Keane into a sweeper role. And Keane will move forward. So too will Laurent. And effectively too.

Your thoughts. And it will be appreciated if discussions can be done in a civil way, disciplined and logical. We don't need slandering amongst we folks who want the betterment of our club... Keep the ideas coming guys. :)
 
I really admire you R United and that comes from a stubborn guy like me

The 4-5-1 would be perfect if we had scored a goal against a big team and we really need to defend. It could be utilised for 10 - 20 min in the second half, but with our young defense it would do the trick

Its not my invention, SAF had always pulled out a forward to put in a defender. But the 5-4-1 would enhance this defending change

For the FIRST time we have a world class ( possibly the best) sweeper. Let start using it.

My conclusion is 4-4-2 which ( against big teams) would change in a 5-4-1 once we are up and suffering.

It will add Blanc's career span, and Manutd would exploit the frenchman to the full
 
BTW I totally agree with Vinay. It may be mad (Altough it proved successfully against Juventus a couple of years ago)but let us try Keano as defender next year.

We would add life to his career span and it may give us an experienced defender needed after Blanc
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>I really admire you R United and that comes from a stubborn guy like me </strong> <hr></blockquote>

thank you. i also admire you for your insistence on breaking new grounds in terms of team formation for United. :D

<strong>
The 4-5-1 would be perfect if we had scored a goal against a big team and we really need to defend. It could be utilised for 10 - 20 min in the second half, but with our young defense it would do the trick

Its not my invention, SAF had always pulled out a forward to put in a defender. But the 5-4-1 would enhance this defending change

For the FIRST time we have a world class ( possibly the best) sweeper. Let start using it.

My conclusion is 4-4-2 which ( against big teams) would change in a 5-4-1 once we are up and suffering.

It will add Blanc's career span, and Manutd would exploit the frenchman to the full</strong><hr></blockquote>

The problem ultimately i think are:

1. Ridding ourselves of some of the attacking team and replace them with appropriate ones. We currently have 5 midfielders and 3 forwards. With 5-4-1, i think some of the players will be very annoyed at the less given game time.

2. We need a couple of more defenders. Surely wingbacks who will be needed to push our football up front.

3. A new manager surely. I don't think SAF is at an age to start a new formation. He will need 2-3 more years of experience before being able to employ this tactic successfully.

These three points will take atleast 2-3 years to complete. It will be a whole new ball game for United. This will also eliminate the possibility of using Blanc or Keane at that time as they will both be too old. By that time it will be very difficult to find a new libero to replace them also.

This problem has dampened situations at both Bayern and the National side when Matthues left the scene. Dortmund and Effenberg also went through the same problem if i'm not wrong. Bayern and Germany didn't go on with 5-3-2 did they? they had to come back to 4-4-2 and it became another transition period for them. It's very hard to replace libero's IMO. You need somone who knows the club through and through and have to have been with the club for a very long time. Who do you see as possible replacements for Keane?

You're looking at a revolution which will not help us win more trophies in the near future.

Personally i don't think it's a bad idea, but because of the work involved in the transformation i'd rather go with new players replacing old ones and keeping the same tactics. There are many players in the world who can come in to United and continue our tradional 4-4-2. But there aren't many to come in to a libero job.

We will also need world class wingbacks to do the job, be it 5-4-1 or 3-5-2 or 5-3-2. Silvestre and Gaz maybe capable, but ultimately they are fullbacks and not wingers. It could even deepen our scoring abilities.

Overall, i don't disagree with you, i just think it's too much work to even get into.

And i think the 5-4-1 will be very effective with 10 minutes to go while we're holding a lead. This i do not doubt will be a good holding plan when playing away from home.

This comment also goes to Vinay who suggested pretty much the same thing Devil has been over the past month or so.
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You took me completely wrong

Imagine we are on 2-1 against a big team 20 min to go. We are on a 4-4-2 but our rivals are constantly attacking.

My plan would be this. Pull off a forward and bring in (either a defender or Blanc) THE 5-4-1 formation takes place. With Blanc as a sweeper leading our backline, it would be difficult for our opponents to break through

What do you think
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>You took me completely wrong

Imagine we are on 2-1 against a big team 20 min to go. We are on a 4-4-2 but our rivals are constantly attacking.

My plan would be this. Pull off a forward and bring in (either a defender or Blanc) THE 5-4-1 formation takes place. With Blanc as a sweeper leading our backline, it would be difficult for our opponents to break through

What do you think</strong><hr></blockquote>

this i can agree with and i think SAF has done this before too, just not with Blanc.

problem is Devil, we haven't led anyone comfortably enough this season to pull off a striker - it's always been adding another striker onto the field.

in CL games so far we have been very comfortable with 4-5-1 so there's really no real need in using 5-4-1 in the last 20 minutes.
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Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>
3. we didn't have a proper playmaker until Veron arrived. Scholes is a hard man, but he's a quiet lad. Keane takes up the game, but ultimately he's a DM. Becks' best ability is on the right side, while giggs on the left. So with 5-4-1 i think we'd have had more problems scoring goals. In 5-4-1 you need a commanding playmaker in midfield who can hold the ball and create games. Since there are limited number in the attacking team we'll only limit ourselves to counter attacking once every 10 minutes. You need a manager who knows this tactic through and through, and you need players who can operate with this tactic. </strong><hr></blockquote>

RUnited so do you think the ginger one is still not a fist class playmaker or do you think he has progressed and adapted, like my onion ? :confused:
i woudnt swap him for any playmaker in the world right now and for the foreseeable.
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Here I will get angry so prepare your guns PPPL

Look my friend, I am NOT SLATING (READ IT AGAIN) veron. He was brilliant in Italy and I respect him on this. But He came in the wrong time at the wrong place. Why? I explain.

As stated Veron is world class but unfortunately to him he had to compete with the best ever (and most underated) attacking midfielder at OT since Bobby Charlton. His name Paul Scholes

Scholes is the perfect midfielder. Elegant, commited with an eye to goal and pacey but also hardworking, a born tackler and always in the thick of the action, Paul is the BEST ( YES EVEN BETTER THAN ZIDANE because more consistant) attacking midfielder in modern football

Pulling him out or playing him out of position IS AN INSULT TO HIS CLASS ( YES I DISAGREE WITH SAF ON THAT ISSUE)
 
a born tackler


I too am a big fan of Scholesey, but i am the first to admit he can't tackle to save his life!!
 
Originally posted by bav:
<strong>a born tackler


I too am a big fan of Scholesey, but i am the first to admit he can't tackle to save his life!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not anymore.. he seems to improve this part of his game much better now. Look at how he play against Fulham or the way he took the ball of Hamman from our penalty box and run all the way to the Liverpool half, great stuff!!
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Originally posted by LenSharkey:
<strong>
i woudnt swap him for any playmaker in the world right now and for the foreseeable.</strong><hr></blockquote>

yap I think so too..
The way Scholes took the responsibility in midfield have improved his game greatly.
Scholes of the old, IMO rarely dominated a game the way an attacking midfielder should be. But this is sometimes got overlooked because of his incredible scoring rate from midfield. Sometimes he would go missing for much of the game but still contribute a goal or two.
But this season, he's been able to stamp his authority in midfield and controlled the game.
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OPTA Player of the Month in November is Scholes:
For a second successive month, the flame-haired maestro they call Paul Scholes has been recognised by Opta as United’s Player of the Month for November.

The fact that the England international just pipped the free-scoring Ruud van Nistelrooy to this honour is testament to his consistent form; something which has played no small part in helping the Reds dramatically re-enter a title race that looked all but gone at the start of November.

The month began with a narrow win over Southampton at Old Trafford, and it was Scholes himself who set the wheels in motion with an assist for Phil Neville’s early goal. Remarkably, that was the first goal the Reds had managed in the opening 45 minutes of a Premiership match at Old Trafford this season. Although the visitors were to equalise shortly after, Diego Forlan’s brilliant strike ensured that United were to start the month with a vital win.

Despite being curiously confused with Juan Sebastian Veron by the public announcer, Scholes was also on hand to help steer United past Leicester City in the League Cup as the Reds warmed up for the Manchester Derby.

Unfortunately, City inflicted United’s only defeat during November, despite the efforts of Scholes who, according to Opta, was the Reds’ most efficient player on the day.

In Europe, United continued to fire on all cylinders however, and Scholes’ delightful touch into the path of van Nistelrooy against Leverkusen gave the Englishman his second assist of the month. Having completed an average of 81% of his passes in the Champions League during November, no other player in the Reds’ engine room could match the accuracy of his distribution.

After being pegged back by a late equaliser at West Ham, United put in what was perhaps their most impressive domestic performance of the campaign so far at home to Newcastle. Scholes’ typically spectacular effort on 25 minutes set the tone for a match, which the Reds eventually won by a 5-3 margin.

With December already underway with a win at Anfield, and Arsenal paying a visit at the weekend, Alex Ferguson must be hoping that Scholes’ scintillating form continues into a third month.


Its a myth that he can't tackle, if you still believe it after watching him against Newcastle and Liverpool then you need your eyes examining. He is though a dirty tackler, and doesn't mind giving fouls if it stops the play, or getting booked if disturbs their players.

He's looking more dominant now because its only Fortune beside him, if it was Keane then he would have less to do himself and of course have to live in the shadow while Keane gets the limelight. He's always been that good, which is partly why we were so fecking wicked in 99, 2000 amongnst many other seasons.
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Paul is the BEST ( YES EVEN BETTER THAN ZIDANE because more consistant) attacking midfielder in modern football

Pulling him out or playing him out of position IS AN INSULT TO HIS CLASS ( YES I DISAGREE WITH SAF ON THAT ISSUE)</strong><hr></blockquote>

I mostly agree with you here (as much as it sounds wierd). Not on all though...

Zidane is the maestro. The one who every one else gets compared to. I don't really think Scholes is more consistent - or better.

And putting Scholsey out of his position is no personal insult, it's just what the manager things is right for the team. Beckham believes his position his midfield. Does that mean putting him right wing is an insult? Or Ole at right wing? Giggs upfront? Fortune in midfield?
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As usual Amir is against me in every word I say

Well you think Zidane is better than Scholes but I don’t

Why? Simple

I have been watching Zidane since his early days, but I focused on him more when he used to play in the Serie A with Juventus. Altough no one doubts Zidane’s creativity, it is also a fact that the Frenchman had to great weaknesses, Weaknesses which as a package (your words Amir) makes him worse that our Scholesky.

The first one was that he rarely fought for the ball. Zidane could do magic, but he ALWAYS needed a world class defensive midfielder winning him the ball, something Juventus ( first Deshamps and then Davids) had always delivered.

But his greatest weakness was his lack of consistency. Lippi and later Ancelloti had described Zidane as a Dr jeckhll and Mr Hyde, brilliant with France (and in certain games) but absolutely ordinary on the rest. In fact Zidane himself had confessed once that he is cut only to play a limited amount of games.

Zidane may eclipse Scholes in technique and leadership but the English lion compensates that with hardwork, goal instinct and consistancy. He is the complete player and certainly I wouldn’t swap him with no one neither with the higher profile star Zinedine Zidane.

About changing positions, yes you are right, there are players who can play a countless amount of positions, but not Paul Scholes. Scholesky is born to play in the thick of the action, were his passion and hardwork can be majorly exploited and not in the forward line.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

The problem ultimately i think are:

1. Ridding ourselves of some of the attacking team and replace them with appropriate ones. We currently have 5 midfielders and 3 forwards. With 5-4-1, i think some of the players will be very annoyed at the less given game time.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Valid point. However, what with the kind of injuries we have in our team, it is surely an option that can be practised in this kind of situation, surely. Half the midfield is out injured. We have to be 'flexible' and accomodating for these kind of situations.

<strong>
2. We need a couple of more defenders. Surely wingbacks who will be needed to push our football up front.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The wing backs we have will be more than effective in Mikael Silvestre, Gary Neville and even John O'Shea, we have capable wing backs. The libero, as mentioned, too, need not strictly be a defender by trade, like Keane. So, I think, the team will not be much different in a 5-3-2 than it is in a 4-4-2 with Keane marshalling the midfield, in terms of player satisfaction situation.

<strong>
3. A new manager surely. I don't think SAF is at an age to start a new formation. He will need 2-3 more years of experience before being able to employ this tactic successfully.
<hr></blockquote></strong>

This kind of new formation start does not require a tactical mindset. It will require a bunch of games of trial for the players to get set to it. But, I know that Blanc and Keane are both capable of adapting to the situation. Our wing backs have more than the instinct to move forward in support of attack. So, it will not be much different from a 4-4-2 situation, in truth. So, it surely will not need a length of 2-3 years for adopting the new system.

<strong>
These three points will take atleast 2-3 years to complete. It will be a whole new ball game for United. This will also eliminate the possibility of using Blanc or Keane at that time as they will both be too old. By that time it will be very difficult to find a new libero to replace them also.
<hr></blockquote></strong>

A libero is a defender/defensive midfielder with a running engine that never stops. We have always had that kind of player in our midst. Robson, Ince, Keane and even Butt will fit the bill perfectly for that kind of player. We do have in the same mould, Michael Stewart in the offing. So, really, it is not a dearth of good liberos that is lacking, but, I think it is more a lack of practising the style, and thereby not using someone suited for the style in that role.
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Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Pulling him out or playing him out of position IS AN INSULT TO HIS CLASS ( YES I DISAGREE WITH SAF ON THAT ISSUE)</strong><hr></blockquote>

You say playing Scholes out of position is an insult to his class. 6 hours 20 minutes earlier in this thread you agree with playing our best player (Keano) out of position. Why is it an insult to Scholes but not Keane?
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Arse,woof woof Aarghse! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Every player has his own qualities, ppl may have flair ( Johnsen and OSHEA HAVE) others dont

Scholes wasnt brilliant (to his own standards) as a forward and we all agree that. He is better in the midfield in the thick of the action

On the other hand on the moving of Keane it was a sign of respect. At 31 Keano is at the wrong side of his career and it will be hard for him to reach Manutd standards ( in 2 or 3 yrs time)

I have watched Keane changing from an attacking to one of the best defensive midfielders in the world. I would bet my money that he will adapt as a defender because he is strong, defensive minded and charismatic.

Its just an experiment(WHICH WORKED AGAINST JUVENTUS).Sorry if I may look unpatriotic but I would do ANYHING to lenghten Keano's career at OT
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Its just an experiment(WHICH WORKED AGAINST JUVENTUS).Sorry if I may look unpatriotic but I would do ANYHING to lenghten Keano's career at OT</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yep, it succeeded in a match SIX years ago and totally failed last year against Chelsea. Not much of an example this.

I actually think Keano would be a fantastic centerhalf. But not just yet. We still need him in midfield.
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Its true mate Keano is important in our midfield.

But I also want to remind you that on his 30s ( altough I havent seen weaknesses in Keano's yet) a defensive midfielder's performance is bound to decline.

With Nicky Butt and maybe Diao Manutd are very strong even without Keano in midfield.

I have witnessed it With Beckenbaur, Mattheus and Sammer, its an experiment but I think it will work

Worth A try
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>But I also want to remind you that on his 30s ( altough I havent seen weaknesses in Keano's yet) a defensive midfielder's performance is bound to decline.

With Nicky Butt and maybe Diao Manutd are very strong even without Keano in midfield.

I have witnessed it With Beckenbaur, Mattheus and Sammer, its an experiment but I think it will work

Worth A try</strong><hr></blockquote>

Diao? I think you mean Diop... and whether we actually want him or not is opened to questions. I've no doubt Keane at centerhalf will work, but we don't need to do it yet.

I don't see Rio and Keane as a great partnership either.
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Dioup sorry a misprint

Rio - Keane would work. Rio is an elegant defender while Keano is powerful, more athletic and a better leader. Agressivness and technique, the perfect dream for a manager
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Dioup sorry a misprint

Rio - Keane would work. Rio is an elegant defender while Keano is powerful, more athletic and a better leader. Agressivness and technique, the perfect dream for a manager</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought you wanted Keane as a sweeper. Now you have him in a back four. John O'Shea and Wes Brown miss out. Much as I rate Keane I think it is better to stick to two of the most promising defenders rather than experiment with a 31 year old midfielder.

You come up with interesting ideas but there are usually as many minuses as plusses.
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what all this nonsense about 5 at the back, were an attacking team, why copy a munich type style when there feckin shit to watch...cant believe its actually been discussed on here...

id faze blanc out thru the season so we adjust to not having him, keep him fresh,and dont play him against the pacier teams, but 4 at the back feck all this 5 bollox....
 
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