Black Sheep Draft SF - oneniltoUnited vs. Joga Bonito

[antohan]

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-------------------------TeamOneNil---------------------------vs---------------------------------Team Joga Bonito-------------------------------

ONENIL'S TACTICS

Maradona and Djalma Santos enter the team which continues strengthening our side. Our attack is now a quartet of all-time attacking greats. While not the supreme facilitator that Socrates was, Maradona simply adds an extra dimension to the attack. Diego poses a different dilemma for the opponents midfield where one single mistake can be instantly deadly. The pace of this attack is as lightning. The speed of these attacking combinations are well equipped to unlock even the masterful defense Joga has assembled.

Djalma I feel strengthens the defense because he is familiar with playing in system similar to this. As last match Obdulio Varela offers the perfect counter to Cruyff when marshalling the defense. The master of tempo control Obdulio will constantly seek to disrupt Cruyff’s flow all match. He is the key to not allowing the opponent to dictate the tempo.

Our defense skill sets match very well against the opponents attackers. Meanwhile our attackers function as an incredibly potent unit that would fare well against even the strongest of defenses. We call upon the array of World Cup winning performances on the pitch with goals potentially from every string of passes. Didi, Obdulio, Nilton and Djalma will ensure the rhythm of the match is to our liking. Disrupting any consistent tempo of the opponent is the key to our victory here.


JOGA'S TACTICS

Both sides feature glorious and direct attacking-play with some-nuances - his being more flamboyant with more individual brilliance whilst mine is direct and exciting but within the parameters of the system with arguably more control.


1) Dynamic all-round side which squares up well against the flamboyant nature of onenil's side

The key would be to restrict his side from playing their fancy football without handing them the initiative (without being reckless). It starts off with the pressing ability of the front-line capable of reducing the effectiveness of build-up play at the back, whilst the midfield will put a chokehold on Didi with none better in the game than Matthäus, with Neeskens and Schweini in tandem.
The key would be to force his forwards deeper into the midfield scrap and make it as ugly as possible off the ball, with the dynamism, industry, tactical nous and physicality of my side

2) Triangles, triangles and more triangles

That being said, on the ball, I believe we can maintain better control here, with the side built around the pythagoric genius Cruyff who has a complementary, mobile and technical cast around him with 2 silky and deadly forwards; a classy-impenetrable defense; and a direct and multi-faceted midfield trio which provides Cruyff with the the ideal platform. Needless to say, it's symbiotic, with Cruyff amplifying his teammate's games too

Ultimately, it'd be a brilliant attacking direct game with a fair amount of turn-overs and I believe the more complete side which is in totality a more cohesive and holistic unit in both phases - better able to recover the ball, maintain control, hold out defensively and exploit the opposition's offense would win here

 

[antohan]

Good luck @oneniltothearsenal @Joga Bonito

 

[antohan]

Hello?

 

[mazhar13]

Hello?

Hi.

I currently can't decide on who to vote for, to be honest. Whilst Joga has a more balanced setup with quality all around, OneNil's team is still quite dangerous going forward, and with 4 playmakers in the team who offer other diverse qualities, I struggle to see how all of them can be contained.

 

[antohan]

Hi.

I currently can't decide on who to vote for, to be honest. Whilst Joga has a more balanced setup with quality all around, OneNil's team is still quite dangerous going forward, and with 4 playmakers in the team who offer other diverse qualities, I struggle to see how all of them can be contained.

Personally I think Joga's defence and defensive setup (MF) is better suited to deal with what is indeed a terrifying frontline.

Cruyff will run riot.

 

[mazhar13]

Personally I think Joga's defence and defensive setup (MF) is better suited to deal with what is indeed a terrifying frontline.

Cruyff will run riot.

That's what I'm thinking as well, but my concern is that, when OneNil's team gets the ball, Joga's team will start to go into their defensive mode and will struggle to get out of that.

Having said that, if Joga's team do get a break, they look the likelier to score.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Christ. Its hard to even get a handle on this when you're blinded by the sheer amount of quality in the two teams, and the lack of weaknesses. The reinforcements were a bit kinder for Joga, as he was able to both add a GOAT and upgrade his one relative weakness. Onenil got his GOAT too, whereas Djalma for Andrade seems a bit of a sideways step. Although that's mitigated by the fact that he didn't have any fecking weaknesses to address in the first place .

 

[Joga Bonito]

Further elaboration on tactical approach


DEFENSIVE STRATEGY

Setting up shop wouldn't be the way to go here, which would be akin to playing to their strengths. Instead we aim to potentially amplify and exploit the opposition's weaknesses and minimise their strengths as much as possible.

Their strengths lie in outrageous creativity (right from Didi, Messi, Rivaldo, Maradona/Socrates) and goalscoring potential whilst their incisive players are capable of unlocking just about any defense on their day. Inviting them onto the ball and ceding possession would be letting them be in their comfort zone and it would be a really tough ask for any defense to hold out against such attacking threat. Key in point being the glorious 1970 Brazilian side which breezed past the deep-lying and passive yet defensively solid Italy in the final but struggled against the proactive yet relatively defensively weaker Uruguayan side in the semis which was more hands on with it's defensive approach, trying to cut off the playmaking avenues from the back with pressure applied on C.Alberto and man-marking Gerson out of the game.

Whereas, I believe onenil's side's weaknesses lie in off the ball solidity, industry, ball winning capabilities etc. (only Varela is a proper defensive presence in midfield with Didi being more of an positionally well versed player, and the likes of Rivaldo, Messi, Ronaldo, Socrates/Maradona can't be expected to contribute to the defensive structure and solidity of the side).

Keep in mind that being an extremely adventurous side, with even their playmaking central midfielder being an relatively direct dribbler; and given the context of an extremely direct game (Imo it would be a fairly even game in terms of possession, given how the players in his side don't tend towards a possession styled game), with turn-overs being a critical part of the equation (more so than ever here), the more industrious side with more ball winning potential, tactical solidity and cohesiveness off the ball is potentially bound to have an edge here.

That's not to say the likes of Ronaldo, Messi, Rivaldo were brainless donkeys who gave away the ball a lot, no more than the likes of Cruyff, Baggio and Neeskens for example but our side wouldn't mind conceding the ball, given the ball winning capabilities of the entire side and the defense that we have at the back. Whereas, once the opposition loses the ball, there is relatively much higher pressure on Varela to win back the ball (and he isn't playing against a traditional #10/SS here but against a false 9 and 2 B2B attacking midfielders) and it'd be much harder for his side to regain possession imo. Mind you, I'm not underrating the partnership of Varela-Didi, and it is as good as it gets as a conventional midfield pairing but keep in mind that they aren't facing a 'conventional' set-up themselves here but a uber energetic midfield of an unique make and a side with a total-footballing approach.



As mentioned before, the key would be restrict service to the forwards and make them drop deeper to receive possession and drag them into the physical and ugly scrap-heap that is the midfield zone with 3 extremely physical, relentless and combative midfielders patrolling that area, ably aided by the forward-line and defense (ensuring that it's not just them sticking out like a sore thumb with their energetic approach, pressing and defending). It starts off with the forward line with Rep being an absolute pest and Cruyff's work off the ball ball being pivotal in decreasing the oppostion's defense's range of distribution routes from the back, and one would be hard-pressed to find a 'better' pair than Matthäus-Neeskens to apply resistance on Didi. Didi was arguably the greatest playmaking central midfielder ever but he is facing a liberated Matthäus here in a ferocious midfield trio, with both offensive and defensive freedom to boot.

Johan 'Kamikaze' Neeskens very much brought about the advent of pressing in the Ajax and Netherlands side of the 70s.

The pressing aspect stemmed largely from Johan Neeskens's aggression. He was usually deputed to pick up the opposing playmaker and the coach Bobby Haarms described him as being "like a kamikaze pilot" as he pursued him, often deep into opposition territory. At first other Ajax players hung back, but by the early 1970s they had become used to following him

He was worth two men in midfield

Lothar was pretty much the most complete midfielder to ever grace the pitch and the man who very much drove his side to a WC win and was rated by none other than Maradona as his greatest adversary ever

He is the best rival I've ever had. I guess that's enough to define him

Whilst Schweinsteiger's stock has naturally dipped on here, at his peak he was the best midfielder in the world, whilst being the driving force behind Bayern's 3 European Cup Finals appearances, being the talisman in Germany's WC victory with his introduction midway through the tournament transforming the German side and culminating in the supreme display in the WC final, whilst being the best midfielder alongside Xavi in the 2010 WC and to top it all off, being the lynch-pin of the treble winning Bayern vintage, being crowned the Footballer of the Year in Germany for his efforts.



OFFENSIVE STRATEGY

Defensively onenil's cast offers some excellent resistance, esp with the Santos duo being a rock solid and proven partnership, however I do believe I have some key weapons in my arsenal to unlock them. Offensively, there are some tasty routes to goal with the two Johans and Lothar combining (not all 3 at the same time obviously although they would be prominent in the build-up phase with their ability on the ball and link up play) with Rep or Baggio cutting in. Cruyff in particular will thrive in the hole, with rampaging midfielders and 2 smooth operators on the flank to operate with. Santamaria and Chumpitaz, both well-rounded yet fairly classical defenders, could find it relatively tougher playing against a spearhead-less side and trying to figure out Cruyff's unpredictable movement and sheer explosiveness, and the fluidity of the forward trio.

For those mistaking Cruyff as a pure facilitating false #9, I'd suggest a look at this video which contains a good portion of Cruyff's goals - you'd be surprised to see the number of 'conventional goals' there.

JOHAN CRUYFF GOALS (click here)

I sincerely believe Cruyff is very much a player who has an extra gear in him, relative to other attacking greats, if he's utilised in the ideal set-up (similar to Xavi in a Barca/Spain-esque set-up as opposed to a more conventional one), as he can not only shine brighter, which in itself is a great thing, but also enhance his entire team's play as well (provided its compatible with his), in a way that very few, if any playmakers can.

Agreed with you on that, for me he is the most complete #10/forward/talisman or whatever you'd want to call it. Capable of dictating from anywhere on the pitch, at ease being the focal point (occasionally) or equally so at receiving the ball from the goalie, on either flank both capable of crossing with either foot or cutting in, as two footed as they come, both a deadly goalscorer and a sublime creator etc. Better stop here before I face Cruyff again in the next round .

I think only di Stefano comes close to him in terms of all-roundedness but Cruyff had more facets to his game (pacier, better dribbling, more dynamic etc) whereas di Stefano was more of a winner and capable of leaving his mark on the defensive end as well - Cruyff was the more complete forward whereas di Stefano was the more complete player. The only drawback being that Cruyff needed quite a bit of tactical subservience - with most others of his ilk, you are looking at tailoring the midfield unit and forward lines around them, but with Cruyff it more or less starts from the very goalie itself.

OVERLOADING THE FLANKS WITH THE PERFECT INSTIGATOR

Cruyff was insanely brilliant at overloading the flanks, interchanging or combining with his fellow forwards and as good as the Santos combo is, it's going to have a tough time keeping up with those triangular wing overloads and exchanges, without much defensive support or cover with Varela having his hands full in midfield.

Key to it would be the combinations between Cruyff, the two brilliant attacking full backs, Neeskens and Schweinsteiger who were brilliant on the flanks at combination plays. The outside trios ; Brehme-Schweinsteiger-Baggio; Carlos Alberto-Neeskens-Rep complement each other perfectly and each bring something unique to the table, and throw one free roaming Cruyff into the equation and it promises to be something equally exciting and deadly in equal measure.

The wing-overloads could prove vital to stretching onenil's defense (which isn't protected by much outside cover or protection) with those interchanges, and create openings with the CB duo potentially being dragged out of their positions to provide cover on the channels/flanks (neither Santamaria and Chumpitaz were particularly renowned for it)

Mind you, this doesn't imply that the full backs are gung ho or unnecessarily aggressive here and both are arguably the most cultured, classy and technical attacking playmaking FBs to ever grace the pitch. They both are well-rounded full-backs who did not have to go to the byline to make an impact ala Cafu, R.Carlos etc.



Carlos Alberto is imo the greatest playmaking full-back of all time and his between the line passing and on the ball ability was unparalleled for a full-back, in fact he was the major build-up component of the Brazil 1970 side alongside Gerson, with both him and Gerson frequently combining with each other and setting the tone for Brazil from the back, with C.Alberto always providing an outlet on the right during possession.

CARLOS ALBERTO (click here)



Likewise, not much needs to be said about Brehme, who was had a man on him in the World Cup R16 by none other than Michels-inspired total footballing side featuring Rijkaard-van Basten-Gullit-Koeman, yet he came away from the game with a stunning goal which proved to be the winner, before going on to score Germany's only goal in the semi finals and capping it all off with the winner in the WC final.

ANDREAS BREHME (click here)

Giving Carlos Alberto and Brehme possession here, fairly un-pressured, could lead to major problems in this set-up for onenil's side, as both were exceptionally talented playmakers from the back and this is the ideal set-up which maximises their metronomic and creative faculties with a free flowing cast alongside them, esp with the onus on wing-overloads - which could prove to be a defining factor in this match-up.



tl dr: Constant and methodical direct probing and stretching to look for openings and exploit them with the deadliness of the forward trio and the goalscoring potential of the midfield, in combination with a combative and tactically disciplined display off the ball, with the forward line's vigour, midfield's dynamism and the resolute nature of the defense combining in a holistic manner, with Cruyff being the glue and the orchestrator of it all.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck @oneniltothearsenal . Have voted for myself to see the score.

 

[Joga Bonito]

That's what I'm thinking as well, but my concern is that, when OneNil's team gets the ball, Joga's team will start to go into their defensive mode and will struggle to get out of that.

Having said that, if Joga's team do get a break, they look the likelier to score.

I've expanded more on my tactics in the post above, esp on the perils of being overly passive or defensive, which should clarify my set-up and my defensive set-up further I hope.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Lovely stuff @Joga Bonito . You've got your tactics spot on here IMO.

 

[Joga Bonito]

As last match Obdulio Varela offers the perfect counter to Cruyff when marshalling the defense. The master of tempo control Obdulio will constantly seek to disrupt Cruyff’s flow all match. He is the key to not allowing the opponent to dictate the tempo.

Varela-Didi is a cracking midfield and I've alluded to that in my post above but I have to say Varela seeking to disrupt Cruyff 'all match' constantly won't neccessarily work imo. First of all Cruyff isn't a traditional #10/SS who would be primarily occupying the hole or even predominantly be in central areas, he'd reprise his usual role here and would be roaming all around the pitch, collecting balls from the goalie, venturing out to the left or right, being in the box, etc being the ubiquitous presence that he is.

So it has to be very much a team effort, to stop Cruyff unless you are man-marking him that is. That's not to say every player has to be hard-working here, but a bit of industry in midfield and attack wouldn't go amiss imo. Secondly, Varela will have his hands full with trying to contain my midfield and he'd have a tough time deciding whether to pay attention to Cruyff here when he drops deep or keep track of Matthäus's or Neeskens runs forward. Didi can be expected to contribute defensively here, with his apt positioning skills and decent work-rate but he's relatively ill-suited to dealing with the sheer dynamism of Matthäus-Neeskens duo and the explosiveness of Cruyff.

Lovely stuff @Joga Bonito . You've got your tactics spot on here IMO.

Cheers.

 

[antohan]

Varela-Didi is a cracking midfield and I've alluded to that in my post above but I have to say Varela seeking to disrupt Cruyff 'all match' constantly won't neccessarily work imo. First of all Cruyff isn't a traditional #10/SS who would be primarily occupying the hole or even predominantly be in central areas, he'd reprise his usual role here and would be roaming all around the pitch, collecting balls from the goalie, venturing out to the left or right, being in the box, etc being the ubiquitous presence that he is.

So it has to be very much a team effort, to stop Cruyff unless you are man-marking him that is. That's not to say every player has to be hard-working here, but a bit of industry in midfield and attack wouldn't go amiss imo. Secondly, Varela will have his hands full with trying to contain my midfield and he'd have a tough time deciding whether to pay attention to Cruyff here when he drops deep or keep track of Matthäus's or Neeskens runs forward. Didi can be expected to contribute defensively here, with his apt positioning skills and decent work-rate but he's relatively ill-suited to dealing with the sheer dynamism of Matthäus-Neeskens duo and the explosiveness of Cruyff.

I was wondering where the hell you got that quote from, then realised it was lazy OP reply-to.

I agree, what I meant earlier in terms of your defence being better suited. Almost the entire defensive setup from onenil consists of players used to a "referencia de marca". That is, a marking reference, not a tight man-marking brief but much closer to that than addressing the fluid movement your forwards would bring to the table.

That was the crux of the shock that the 1974 debut against Netherlands represented for Uruguay (which had a vastly experienced defence, probably the best from the South American teams), they were playing something completely different to anything they had seen before and didn't have the first clue what they were meant to be doing about it. It broke them, to this day I hear ex-players talk about it in disbelief at how suddenly all their certainties disappeared and their confidence got crushed. They were no more than toys.

 

[Raees]

Hard to decide but what I will say is that whenever a top South American side goes up against a top European side which roughly is what we see here.. the South American side usually wins.

For me the more I play this game in my head the more I have to hand the victory to One Nil because he has magicians all across the front line and if one is closed off.. another can fill in and grab a winner whereas Joga is heavily reliant on Cruyff to that what is a more industrious side into a threatening one.

Baggio is up against Djalma so that's a big worry for Joga on how to support Johan.

I also can't see how Joga full backs can be effective going forwards when they have to Marshall such an attack which leaves his midfield as having to do the heavy lifting going forwards.

His midfield is stronger as a great midfield three will generally beat a great midfield two if both are on form but not sure if it is enough to edge this game in his favour for me.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I was wondering where the hell you got that quote from, then realised it was lazy OP reply-to.

Ooops, forgot about that.

Almost the entire defensive setup from onenil consists of players used to a "referencia de marca". That is, a marking reference, not a tight man-marking brief but much closer to that than addressing the fluid movement your forwards would bring to the table.

That was the crux of the shock that the 1974 debut against Netherlands represented for Uruguay (which had a vastly experienced defence, probably the best from the South American teams), they were playing something completely different to anything they had seen before and didn't have the first clue what they were meant to be doing about it. It broke them, to this day I hear ex-players talk about it in disbelief at how suddenly all their certainties disappeared and their confidence got crushed. They were no more than toys.

Agreed, with that, also recall Enrique Wolff from Argentina saying something similar and he said that he believed they didn't defend badly but had no clue as to what to do or how to deal with that Netherlands side.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Maradona messi and Ronaldo in the same team. unfair and should be enough to sway anyone who can't quite make their mind up.

 

[Joga Bonito]

For me the more I play this game in my head the more I have to hand the victory to One Nil because he has magicians all across the front line and if one is closed off.. another can fill in and grab a winner whereas Joga is heavily reliant on Cruyff to that what is a more industrious side into a threatening one.

Naturally with the team being heavily built around Cruyff, I'm going to be reliant on him (as were the Ajax and Dutch sides) but I have fellow ballon d'Or winner in Baggio, Netherlands all time WC top-scorer in Rep who was an integral part of the Ajax and Dutch side with his goalscoring nous and all-round game. That being said, I can see Maradona, Messi, Rivaldo, Ronaldo etc not having an easy time against the likes of Matthäus, Baresi, Figueroa, C.Alberto etc but I don't see an effective measure from the opposition to stop Cruyff here.

Baggio is up against Djalma so that's a big worry for Joga on how to support Johan.

I also can't see how Joga full backs can be effective going forwards when they have to Marshall such an attack which leaves his midfield as having to do the heavy lifting going forwards.

His midfield is stronger as a great midfield three will generally beat a great midfield two if both are on form but not sure if it is enough to edge this game in his favour for me.

I'd link you to my post above (provided you haven't read it of course) where I've addressed your concerns and why it isn't so straight-forward as Baggio vs Djalma here.

Elaboration on Tactics

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Joga's midfield is hard to wrap my head around. Would have preferred is Schweini is the deepest man and both Matthaus and Neeskens up ahead. Don't really like Neeskens role here. Can understand Inter/Matthaus, but this doesn't get the best out of Neeskens-Cruyff dynamic.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Would have preferred is Schweini is the deepest man and both Matthaus and Neeskens up ahead.

He is the deepest player though, with Matthäus and Neeskens ahead. Just like how Wimmer and Haan etc were the deepest midfielders for both Germany and Netherlands/Ajax but weren't necessarily the central players. Have elaborated more on why I've went with such a midfield set-up and Matthäus has plenty of experience playing as an all-encompassing B2B in a midfield trio (for both German 1990 and Inter of course), whilst Neeskens still reprises his usual attacking B2B role, and his right sided tendencies would help a lot here afaic.

 

[harms]

Joga's midfield is hard to wrap my head around. Would have preferred is Schweini is the deepest man and both Matthaus and Neeskens up ahead. Don't really like Neeskens role here. Can understand Inter/Matthaus, but this doesn't get the best out of Neeskens-Cruyff dynamic.

Em?

Offensively, there are some tasty routes to goal with the two Johans and Lothar combining (not all 3 at the same time obviously although they would be prominent in the build-up phase with their ability on the ball and link up play) with Rep or Baggio cutting in

(and he isn't playing against a traditional #10/SS here but against a false 9 and 2 B2B attacking midfielders)

Secondly, Varela will have his hands full with trying to contain my midfield and he'd have a tough time deciding whether to pay attention to Cruyff here when he drops deep or keep track of Matthäus's or Neeskens runs forward. Didi can be expected to contribute defensively here, with his apt positioning skills and decent work-rate but he's relatively ill-suited to dealing with the sheer dynamism of Matthäus-Neeskens duo and the explosiveness of Cruyff.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Varela-Didi is a cracking midfield and I've alluded to that in my post above but I have to say Varela seeking to disrupt Cruyff 'all match' constantly won't neccessarily work imo. First of all Cruyff isn't a traditional #10/SS who would be primarily occupying the hole or even predominantly be in central areas, he'd reprise his usual role here and would be roaming all around the pitch, collecting balls from the goalie, venturing out to the left or right, being in the box, etc being the ubiquitous presence that he is.

So it has to be very much a team effort, to stop Cruyff unless you are man-marking him that is. That's not to say every player has to be hard-working here, but a bit of industry in midfield and attack wouldn't go amiss imo. Secondly, Varela will have his hands full with trying to contain my midfield and he'd have a tough time deciding whether to pay attention to Cruyff here when he drops deep or keep track of Matthäus's or Neeskens runs forward. Didi can be expected to contribute defensively here, with his apt positioning skills and decent work-rate but he's relatively ill-suited to dealing with the sheer dynamism of Matthäus-Neeskens duo and the explosiveness of Cruyff.

Don't have time to read your novel of player profiles but I hope they aren't like this where you completely miss the point about Varela and Cruyff.

Its about tempo control which the team you assembled is absolutely reliant on. Its not about Varela following Cruyff around man marking him ffs, but about Varela being the genius of counter attacking who will know exactly how and when to disrupt your tempo. The key is not allowing Cruyff and Xavi to dictate the tempo which my team is well suited to stopping. Varela famously disrupted the rhythm like this in 1950 World Cup final but was also known to be expert at this in other key matches

In the course of a match, an opponent commits a brutal attack against one of his teammates, the referee called the infraction, but instead left unwarned, Obdulio takes the ball and is situated opposite the school and rebuked as follows: "If you give the event that any member of my team act in a similar manner I urge you to send him to the locker room because I, as captain, no could tolerate acts of this magnitude. "

It is in this sense that Obdulio subverts and nullifies Cruyff's influence on the match. No idea why you bring up only having Varela as "proper DM" when you have no proper DMs yourself which is a massive weakness against the elegance, pace and power of my attackers. Maradona and Messi will gain much joy with only Schweinstaeger trying to hold for you.

And with Cruyff as a false 9 you can't underestimate how strong my center backs are and how well suited they are to dealing with Cruyff. They both are excellent readers of the match and offer solid physical characteristics along with quickness and positional sense. The entire backline would function as a unit and provide the type of resistance that you simply do not have the firepower to overcome more often than Maradona, Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Messi.

Oh and Ill also point out you have the worst player on the pitch in Rep. In this company Rep does stand out as not at the absolute top elite level of my attackers.

@antohan

btw I didn't give you guys smaller versions of my tactic so Joga's would be much larger but rather so both could be the same size since others have complained when my tactic was larger

 

[mazhar13]

OVERLOADING THE FLANKS WITH THE PERFECT INSTIGATOR

This is a crucial point that can possibly put the match into Joga's favour. Whilst Djalma was great at stifling attacks before they developed, excellent at covering for his central defenders, and a strong man marker, he was still human, and like any human full back, he struggled to deal with the overloads on his side (most famously against Skoglund and Sweden in the 1958 World Cup final). Varela has lots to deal with already in terms of dealing with Cruyff in a free role as well as supporting Didi defensively in the midfield, and given the fact that the wide players won't really track back that far, I'm not sure if OneNil's team can handle those flank overloads.

 

[harms]

I would've probably preferred the 5-3-2 that Joga had in the last round with Cruyff instead of Baggio. First, it gives you a tactical advantage over onenil's front 4, and second, you retain Brehme-Kocsis link up which would be great against onenil's center backs. With the additional bonus of not fielding Rep, who is, by far, the weakest player on the pitch, like onenil rightfully noticed.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

That's what I'm thinking as well, but my concern is that, when OneNil's team gets the ball, Joga's team will start to go into their defensive mode and will struggle to get out of that.

Having said that, if Joga's team do get a break, they look the likelier to score.

How do you figure Cruyff is more likely to score than Maradona? I find Joga's midfield to be particularly ill-suited to trying to stop Diego in his pomp. Schweiny might have worked against a slower Socrates but Maradona is a nightmare for Scheiny to try to control. He's going to need a lot of help from Neeskens and Matthaus to even slow down Diego let alone stop him. And then thats without taking into account the interactions of Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Messi.

This is a crucial point that can possibly put the match into Joga's favour. Whilst Djalma was great at stifling attacks before they developed, excellent at covering for his central defenders, and a strong man marker, he was still human, and like any human full back, he struggled to deal with the overloads on his side (most famously against Skoglund and Sweden in the 1958 World Cup final). Varela has lots to deal with already in terms of dealing with Cruyff in a free role as well as supporting Didi defensively in the midfield, and given the fact that the wide players won't really track back that far, I'm not sure if OneNil's team can handle those flank overloads.

You are forgetting that you haven't even mentioned two defending players yet in these alleged "overloads" - Santamaria and Chumpitaz. If Varela is dealing with Cruyff then both my center backs are free and both are brilliant at positional awareness and reading the game. and Its not like Rep is going to influence much this match compared with Messi and Rivaldo on the other side. If Cruyff is over on the flank trying to overload with Rep then there is no one in the center to worry about.

It feel like Joga is trying to portray Cruyff as super powers capable of being in multiple places at the same time.

How exactly do you envision Joga's defense trying to stop Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Its about tempo control which the team you assembled is absolutely reliant on. Its not about Varela following Cruyff around man marking him ffs, but about Varela being the genius of counter attacking who will know exactly how and when to disrupt your tempo. The key is not allowing Cruyff and Xavi to dictate the tempo which my team is well suited to stopping. Varela famously disrupted the rhythm like this in 1950 World Cup final but was also known to be expert at this in other key matches

You are still going around in circles, and quoting that same quote whilst not exactly explaining how it is that you plan on not allowing Cruyff to dictate the tempo here.

No idea why you bring up only having Varela as "proper DM"

That is not what I said

Santamaria and Chumpitaz.

Neither of whom were noted for their ease down the channels or flanks iirc.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You are still going around in circles, and quoting that same quote whilst not exactly explaining how it is that you plan on not allowing Cruyff to dictate the tempo.

Ive given you two examples of exactly what that means so Im not playing your little red herring game.

Also if your false 9 is over on the flank tryinh to create "overloads" then you have no threat in the center and the danger is easy for my defense to contain.

This contrasts where you have no viable way of defending Maradona without double and tripling up

 

[antohan]

Ooops, forgot about that.



Agreed, with that, also recall Enrique Wolff from Argentina saying something similar and he said that he believed they didn't defend badly but had no clue as to what to do or how to deal with that Netherlands side.

Yups, the Argies suffered too, but at least they had seen the Uruguay game already.

We just got on a plane thinking we were the mighty Uruguay, four times world champions, fourth in the last after a semi with the eventual winners, with the most decorated club sides in South America...

Then after 90 mins we knew football had changed and we were probably not going to beat anyone ever again.

Funny that, exactly 50 years earlier it was Uruguay that elicited the same reaction in Europe at the 1924 Olympics.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Ive given you two examples

One of which was a game against the overconfident Brazilians with a hard-working Uruguayan cast alongside him, playing a fairly defensive set-up with a counter-attacking mentality. The other being an interesting anecdote but does zilch in explaining how he'll stop Cruyff.

It is in this sense that Obdulio subverts and nullifies Cruyff's influence on the match.

Ok...


Mind you, I rate Varela as one of the greatest DMs of all time and love your midfield duo, but with your top-heavy side with minimal support for Varela, I don't see how you can so confidently state this, esp against that midfield and the number of passsengers you have defensively in your side.

"As last match Obdulio Varela offers the perfect counter to Cruyff when marshalling the defense."
"Disrupting any consistent tempo of the opponent is the key to our victory here."

esp without backing up that statement whatsover.

Also if your false 9 is over on the flank tryinh to create "overloads" then you have no threat in the center and the danger is easy for my defense to contain.

That's precisely how overloads work innit? Neeskens, Cruyff, C.Alberto, Rep cuddling together in front of the corner flag.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

One of which was a game against the overconfident Brazilians with a hard-working Uruguayan cast alongside him, playing a fairly defensive set-up with a counter-attacking mentality. The other being an interesting anecdote but does zilch in explaining how he'll stop Cruyff.
Ok...

Mind you, I rate Varela as one of the greatest DMs of all time and love your midfield duo, but with your top-heavy side with minimal support for Varela, I don't see how you can so confidently state this, esp against that midfield and the number of passsengers you have defensively in your side.

"As last match Obdulio Varela offers the perfect counter to Cruyff when marshalling the defense."
"Disrupting any consistent tempo of the opponent is the key to our victory here."

esp without backing up that statement whatsover.

Its simple tempo negation. Cruyff is key piece to your team and he is at his best controlling possession and dictating tempo. Not going to be able to do either this match. Not sure if you are being intentionally disingenuous or you truly do not understand how relevant the Varela quotes are. If your team starts to get into a rhythm and controlling the tempo then we will do things to disrupt that and switch it up to retake the initiative. Like picking up the ball to argue an offside that doesn't exist just to wind up your players and take them out of their rhythm. Then on the other end my attack is lightning quick which does not suit your midfield well at all. Maradona is going to cause tremendous trouble for that midfield set up that is weak to pace which my attack has in abundance.

That's precisely how overloads work innit? Neeskens, Cruyff, C.Alberto, Rep cuddling together in front of the corner flag.

And then your "overload" is contained within a quartet of my defenders so the danger is negated.

Also I doubt your full backs would get forward much or else Rivaldo and Messi are going to get easy goals.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Not sure if you are being intentionally disingenuous or you truly do not understand how relevant the Varela quotes are. If your team starts to get into a rhythm and controlling the tempo then we will do things to disrupt that

Like picking up the ball to argue an offside that doesn't exist just to wind up your players and take them out of their rhythm.

You'd have to be quite the manager to coax that out of the likes of Rivaldo, Didi, Ronaldo, Messi and Maradona. If anything it's my side which is capable of doing that (and I don't need or want them to do that btw), and yours is literally the last side I can see doing that apart from Varela.

Then on the other end my attack is lightning quick which does not suit your midfield well at all. Maradona is going to cause tremendous trouble for that midfield set up that is weak to pace which my attack has in abundance.

I don't see how the likes of Matthäus-Neeskens and Schweinsteiger aren't suited to your attack. If anything it's the other way around with just one heavy hitter in Varela in your midfield and one competent defensive presence in Didi and other defensive passengers in your attack; they are going to struggle to offer stiff resistance off the ball to my midfield and Cruyff. Esp with neither of your CBs being comfortable of dealing with the fluid forward trio or Cruyff, despite being fairly complete defenders themselves - stylistic clash, not so much as to their lack of attributes.

Anyway, we are just going around in circles, and it's not really enjoyable, so I'm just going to drop 'whatever it is that we are having' here.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Here are some important points:

• Cruyff cannot be in two places at once.
• Brehme cannot handle Messi 1v1 and is going to need help.
• Schweiny cannot handle Maradona 1v1 and is going to need help.
• Neither Baresi nor Figeuroa have the pace to keep up with Ronaldo all match and will need to cover for each other.

Together these all lead to giving my side the advantage in attack and not allowing Cruyff to set the rhythm for his side to get going.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You'd have to be quite the manager to coax that out of the likes of Rivaldo, Didi, Ronaldo, Messi and Maradona. If anything it's my side which is capable of doing that (and I don't need or want them to do that btw), and yours is literally the last side I can see doing that apart from Varela.

My defenders are all capable of disrupting the tempo. My attackers switch the tempo on your side in a different fashion. Varela, Chumpitaz and Santamaria even Djalma could all be gamers when they wanted.

Anyway, we are just going around in circles, and it's not really enjoyable, so I'm just going to drop 'whatever it is that we are having' here.

Its not really enjoyable to me to wake up to a match already going for a while packed with long posts you already wrote that I feel misrepresent my side but it is what it is.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Its not really enjoyable to me to wake up to a match already going for a while packed with long posts you already wrote that I feel misrepresent my side but it is what it is.

Felt the 250 words weren't enough so decided to write a longer write-up to elaborate my tactics and posted them seperately in the thread post-OP, nothing against that as the main intention was not to clog up the OP or the page with videos or gifs. Voters can choose to read it or just bypass it, as per their wish.

And if you feel your side was misrepresented, you can quote and respond to those points anyway. I've mentioned a couple of basic facts, one - your side has a fair few number of defensive passengers off the ball, second that your defenders were very much used to the conventional set-up whereby they faced a traditional centre-forward and won't necessarily be at ease here against a fluid forward trio with Cruyff at the helm (which anto and a few others have agreed with), and you are more than welcome to argue the second point (as I myself think that your defenders are fairly complete and intelligent ones myself but do think they could be overtasked), instead of taking offense

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Felt the 250 words weren't enough so decided to write a longer write-up to elaborate my tactics and posted them seperately in the thread post-OP, nothing against that as the main intention was not to clog up the OP or the page with videos or gifs. Voters can choose to read it or just bypass it, as per their wish.

And if you feel your side was misrepresented, you can quote and respond to those points anyway. I've mentioned a couple of basic facts, one - your side has a fair few number of defensive passengers off the ball, second that your defenders were very much used to the conventional set-up whereby they faced a traditional centre-forward and won't necessarily be at ease here against a fluid forward trio with Cruyff at the helm (which anto and a few others have agreed with), and you are more than welcome to argue the second point (as I myself think that your defenders are fairly complete and intelligent ones myself but do think they could be overtasked), instead of taking offense

I am just going to summarize my main points again to clarify

• Cruyff cannot be in two places at once.
• Brehme cannot handle Messi 1v1 and is going to need help.
• Schweiny cannot handle Maradona 1v1 and is going to need help.
• Neither Baresi nor Figeuroa have the pace to keep up with Ronaldo all match and will need to cover for each other.
• Your defense needs an awful lot of support to stop the constant goal threat from all angles and speeds that I possess
• Because of the support your defense needs, you will be unable to impose any numerical advantage that your narrative keeps insisting you have especially since Rep is by far the worst player on the pitch
• Your attack does not offer much goal threat in comparison. Not even close really
• Baggio is not in his best role at all and is not optimized

This is why this match would go nothing like you have presented, even if you ended up winning it in a real match.

I need to underline the bold part because your presentation has Cruyff seemingly everywhere at once. Helping out the midfield, overload the flanks, presenting a goal threat in the center. Sure, he might do all of those things over the course of the entire match but that is not hard to control for the caliber of tactical awareness and reading the game my squad has.

 

[antohan]

One of which was a game against the overconfident Brazilians with a hard-working Uruguayan cast alongside him, playing a fairly defensive set-up with a counter-attacking mentality. The other being an interesting anecdote but does zilch in explaining how he'll stop Cruyff.

I think the point is the importance of a calm cool head that knows how to manage the tempo and temperature of a game. He was an absolute genius at that. What he is doing in that quote is confronting the referee and telling him in no uncertain terms he is about to lose control of the game, part warning, part veiled threat, and he is doing it in such a way that the ref WILL act upon it.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Helping out the midfield, overload the flanks, presenting a goal threat in the center. Sure, he might do all of those things over the course of the entire match but that is not hard to control for the caliber of tactical awareness and reading the game my squad has.

Cruyff cannot be in two places at once.

Obviously he can't but what he is is a free roaming false 9 who had command over the entire side and anyone's who's watched him play will know that claiming him to pick up the ball from the goalie, being in the box scoring goals or venturing over to the flanks over the course of a match, is hardly an inaccurate assessment of his playing style. And where have I said he is doing all these things at once, but like you said it's over the course of the match, naturally.

but that is not hard to control for the caliber of tactical awareness and reading the game my squad has.

Would have to disagree with that but I've already made my points on that matter, as to why Cruyff in combination with my B2B midfielder will be hard to stop, so will just leave it at that.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Schweiny cannot handle Maradona 1v1 and is going to need help.

He isn't one on with Maradona though nor is he a holding midfielder, unlike Varela or your set-up.

Neither Baresi nor Figeuroa have the pace to keep up with Ronaldo all match and will need to cover for each other.

Neither Chumpitaz and Santamaria are suited to Cruyff's game and they badly need cover with only Varela to count for, who is fairly occupied in midfield.

Your defense needs an awful lot of support to stop the constant goal threat from all angles and speeds that I possess

Varela needs an awful lot of support against that industrious midfield and he has zilch from his fellow forwards and just a decent amount from Didi, who was more of a positonal player as opposed to a hard working player putting the yards in relatively

Your attack does not offer much goal threat in comparison. Not even close really

Your midfield and attack does not offer much protection against my midfield and Cruyff in comparison, nah not even a comparison to be had.

Baggio is not in his best role at all and is not optimized

Rivaldo is not in his best role, nor is Didi with Maradona ahead of him or Rivaldo for that matter.


Am I doing this right?

EDIT: Damn forgot those damned bullet-points

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

He isn't one on with Maradona though nor is he a holding midfielder, unlike Varela or your set-up.
EDIT: Damn forgot those damned bullet-points

Maybe I should add some really cool color coded sub-headers in a SUPER LARGE FONT right when thread begins! Wait, am I doing your bit right now?

-----------------------------------

Joga is definitely a master at filling up threads with his posts to re-iterate his narrative that best suits his agenda and hides his weaknesses.
This match, he is well done to keep harping on Cruyff as Cruyff is his best player. What Joga seeks to hide though is that I have three attackers that are arguably better than Cruyff or at the least on par.

Joga's primary three attack consists of:
• Rep - worst player on the pitch
• Baggio - out of his best position and not natural at stretching the space as Rensenbrink was to maximize Cruyff, he'll want to cut inside much more which suits me well
• Cruyff - Joga's one Goat attacker

assisted by box to boxers like Neeskens and Matthaus

My primary attack consists of:
• Maradona - arguably greatest player of all time
• Messi - arguably greatest player of all time
• Ronaldo - arguably best no.9 of all time and most unplayable player in his peak

assisted by Ballon winner Rivaldo in the position he won the Ballon playing, Player of the 1958 world cup Didi and two of the best full backs of all time.
My attack is simply another level higher than Joga's as a unit with pace, technique, unpredictability and goals from everywhere.

 

[Moby]

Why does it have Onenil's name wrong in the title?

 

[harms]

Why does it have Onenil's name wrong in the title?

forum's autocorrect