Black Sheep Draft QF - onenil vs Pat

With players at peak, who wins?

  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .
harms said:
I always thought that Santamaria was great in the air, must've read it somewhere, wasn't he? His height is a little suspect (1,79m), with Chumpitaz also being quite short (and not having Cannavaro-esque leap, despite not being particularly weak in the air)
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Chumpitaz was 1.71 or so? Both of them definitely a leap way beyond their height like Vidic as well. But for an all time draft, against the wrong side, that would be a weakness in my eyes. Not in every game by any means of course. But with the delivery of Matthews and the fact that he'd constantly get balls in and Spencers ability in the air - I'd have felt more safe if he had centre backs who were more dominant in the air.

I like seeing them picked but, Chumpitaz, should probably be partnered with an absolute GOAT in that regard to compensate for it. One thing to consider could be to let the duo play against sides that lack an aerial threat as I can see them being great apart from that.

Then you bring on the big man for Chumpitaz in games like these.
 
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Moby said:
Was literally waiting for you to come here and argue for Barnes above Cruyff. :lol:
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Not Barnes over Cruyff but the counter-attacking setup with Tardelli in it.

Once (if) you agree that's a better option, Barnes is naturally suited to it while Cruyff in a wide left role seems to me as banking on his genius and brilliance despite the setup not at all being ideal for him, let alone built to get the best out of him.

It does seem bonkers to me to have Cruyff and bench him. But then, he benched Laudrup against AC (I know, that didn't end well :lol:)
 
Annahnomoss said:
Chumpitaz was 1.71 or so? Both of them definitely a leap way beyond their height like Vidic as well. But for an all time draft, against the wrong side, that would be a weakness in my eyes. Not in every game by any means of course. But with the delivery of Matthews and the fact that he'd constantly get balls in and Spencers ability in the air - I'd have felt more safe if he had centre backs who were more dominant in the air.
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Yeah, good point.
 
harms said:
I always thought that Santamaria was great in the air, must've read it somewhere, wasn't he? His height is a little suspect (1,79m), with Chumpitaz also being quite short (and not having Cannavaro-esque leap, despite not being particularly weak in the air)
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I think Spencer would have a field day, but he would be better off if Pat invited Onenil to come out at him (which he would, the players would, it's their natural game).
 
antohan said:
Not Barnes over Cruyff but the counter-attacking setup with Tardelli in it.

Once (if) you agree that's a better option, Barnes is naturally suited to it while Cruyff in a wide left role seems to me as banking on his genius and brilliance despite the setup not at all being ideal for him, let alone built to get the best out of him.

It does seem bonkers to me to have Cruyff and bench him. But then, he benched Laudrup against AC (I know, that didn't end well :lol:)
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Perhaps it would be a great fit for the younger late 60s Cruyff in his more forward-ish and explosive role behind Spencer in a free roaming wing-forward role?
 
harms said:
Yeah, good point.
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I like seeing them picked but, Chumpitaz, should probably be partnered with an absolute GOAT in that regard to compensate for it. One thing to consider could be to let the duo play against sides that lack an aerial threat as I can see them being great apart from that.

Then you bring on the big man for Chumpitaz in games like these.
 
antohan said:
Not Barnes over Cruyff but the counter-attacking setup with Tardelli in it.

Once (if) you agree that's a better option, Barnes is naturally suited to it while Cruyff in a wide left role seems to me as banking on his genius and brilliance despite the setup not at all being ideal for him, let alone built to get the best out of him.

It does seem bonkers to me to have Cruyff and bench him. But then, he benched Laudrup against AC (I know, that didn't end well :lol:)
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Joga Bonito said:
Perhaps it would be a great fit for the younger late 60s Cruyff in his more forward-ish and explosive role behind Spencer in a free roaming wing-forward role?
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I think Matthews in a Garrincha '62 role, with almost all the balls going through him would be great here. Not sure what Nilton could do to counter that, i.e does he try to influence the game going forward and give even more room for Matthews. Or does he try to stay defensive and on the right side of him, either way that route is worth a lot of goals. "The occasion distinguished by Matthews, provocatively aged 41, having a creative hand in all England goals in a 4-2 victory."
 
Joga Bonito said:
Perhaps it would be a great fit for the younger late 60s Cruyff in his more forward-ish and explosive role behind Spencer in a free roaming wing-forward role?
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That would make sense, but you know how it is with GOATs... It would be a bit weird to specifically state that for Cruyff you aren't playing the peak GOAT.
 
Moby said:
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Well, I just happen to think in a counterattacking side the stars would be Matthews and Spencer, not Cruyff. Barnes fits that like a glove, while Cruyff doesn't really.

Team >>>> Individuals. Particularly when facing a team like ONTTAs.
 
antohan said:
Well, I just happen to think in a counterattacking side the stars would be Matthews and Spencer, not Cruyff. Barnes fits that like a glove, while Cruyff doesn't really.

Team >>>> Individuals. Particularly when facing a team like ONTTAs.
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You're not fooling anyone here, anto.
 
antohan said:
Well, I just happen to think in a counterattacking side the stars would be Matthews and Spencer, not Cruyff. Barnes fits that like a glove, while Cruyff doesn't really.

Team >>>> Individuals. Particularly when facing a team like ONTTAs.
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If ONTTA is the abbreviation of your name you know you have to change. Let's decide his new name. I suggest Oneannahmoss, catchy and elegant.
 
Moby said:
You're not fooling anyone here, anto.
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I have no idea what you are on about. It's an all-time draft packed with GOATs and tight games, the difference won't be one individual being really good at football, it's what the team sets out to do and whether it has the right men to accomplish it. There's no question in my mind @Pat_Mustard would be better off adding Tardelli to that midfield, sitting deep, and hitting ONTTA on the break. It's the only way he can conceivably win this game.

Is it Barnes or Cruyff on the left? It's a bit potato/potatoe really when he isn't even setting up that way. If he did, we could all have a discussion on that.

For the record, I haven't voted and have no idea what the scoreline looks like, so I'm not sure what sort of agenda you have in mind here.
 
Classic point: Midget central defenders who were uncomfortable in the air - do they exist? Yep. Do people know who they are? Not in general, no.

So, yeah - Chumpitaz isn't an asset against aerial threats, but you can't count him as a liability either. It will have to come down to particular circumstances. I can certainly see Matthews-to-Spencer (who was hell in the air) being dangerous, but the latter isn't up against defenders who were poor aerially.
 
I'd have preferred Rivaldo there, btw, as others have said. But I'm not a great Henry fan, to be honest. Onenil is, of course, which is more than understandable - and Henry obviously isn't some kind of tactical misfit here.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I'd have preferred Rivaldo there, btw, as others have said. But I'm not a great Henry fan, to be honest. Onenil is, of course, which is more than understandable - and Henry obviously isn't some kind of tactical misfit here.
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I agree with the notion that his attack is a bit more central oriented tho with Messi and Henry likely to cut in with only one full back (Nilton) providing width, but in the same time Nilton is a bit occupied with Matthews.

IMO Pat team tactically is really good fit, just seems onenil overall quality nicks it.
 
antohan said:
Well, I just happen to think in a counterattacking side the stars would be Matthews and Spencer, not Cruyff. Barnes fits that like a glove, while Cruyff doesn't really.
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Cruyff was absolutely amazing in transition though and Ajax/Netherlands created plenty of chances on the counter. Could his ego handle it to give away possession for a game? Maybe. He certainly wouldn't allow a side to build around that style for good, but as a change in tactics for a game? Well, I still have my doubts, but nevertheless, abilitywise he'd destroy teams on the counter for fun.
 
Balu said:
Cruyff was absolutely amazing in transition though and Ajax/Netherlands created plenty of chances on the counter. Could his ego handle it to give away possession for a game? Maybe. He certainly wouldn't allow a side to build around that style for good, but as a change in tactics for a game? Well, I still have my doubts, but nevertheless, abilitywise he'd destroy teams on the counter for fun.
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I agree with that. As you say, he obviously was superb in transitions. It's the playing second fiddle in a 90-minutes long negative approach I'm not sure about.

I can see him getting very frustrated not playing on the front foot, and an unhappy/frustrated Cruyff is not what I would want on the pitch.
 
antohan said:
I agree with that. As you say, he obviously was superb in transitions. It's the playing second fiddle in a 90-minutes long negative approach I'm not sure about.

I can see him getting very frustrated not playing on the front foot, and an unhappy/frustrated Cruyff is not what I would want on the pitch.
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To be honest, I don't see how the opponent could actually dominate possession in a crazy way here. The way both teams are built, it screams open game going back and forth to me. Even if you add Tardelli and make it a midfield 3. One nil doesn't have patient players in his side who would build up in a slow pace and force Pat into extremely negative tactics.
 
Balu said:
To be honest, I don't see how the opponent could actually dominate possession in a crazy way here. The way both teams are built, it screams open game going back and forth to me. Even if you add Tardelli and make it a midfield 3. One nil doesn't have patient players in his side who would build up in a slow pace and force Pat into extremely negative tactics.
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Yeah, it's an even game if you want to trade blows, but I'd expect the same outcome 4 out of 5 times with ONTTA ultimately winning given the firepower across his frontline.

I'm actually focusing on the flipside to what you are saying here: the difficulty if you tried to soak and play on the counter would be if you played a patient team, but (as I said from the off) that's not what you'd expect from ONTTAs players. It's not in their nature to be patient and controlling. That in turn is what makes the counter-attacking strategy more viable and, with Pat's defence, I would expect the tables to be turned. He would be relying on his greatest asset (the resilient back four and protection for it) to negate ONTTAs, and next thing you know it's all about Matthews, Cruyff/Barnes and Spencer vs. a defence that looks more vulnerable and is getting caught on the backfoot in open spaces.
 
Both managers have built fantastic teams.

So many great players here -- :drool:




 
Desailly is the right man to destroy the game of Socrates. Kohler will be in charge of the marking on Ronaldo.

You need these tough players to break these South-American artists.

Nice cultural confrontation.
 
Isotope said:
@Pat_Mustard Maybe if you go with midfield 3, with Desailly at the base, would give the team a better grip of the game. With Desailly can go to center defence when needed.

Tardelli --- Scholes
-------Desailly--
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I did consider playing all 3 midfielders but TBH I love that Barnes/Matthews wing pairing and I really didn't want to bench either of them, and I never seriously considered benching Cruyff. I was very close to keeping the same formation and starting Tardelli ahead of Scholes though and I somewhat regret not trying that, but Tardelli doesn't seem to be particularly highly rated in drafts. I'm not sure if anything would have made much of a difference against Onenil's freaky attack :lol:.
 
Raees said:
Unlucky @Pat_Mustard - brutal scoreline but undeserved. Would be a tight game in reality.
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Thanks mate. I'm not too bothered as I wasn't expecting to win here against absurdly good opposition, and I've enjoyed discussing Barnes and Matthews. I did mean to put in alot more effort with Spencer, but there'll be other drafts for that :)
 
I would have preferred

-------- Cruyjff
---------------- Tardelli
---------Desailly

Pat_Mustard said:
I did consider playing all 3 midfielders but TBH I love that Barnes/Matthews wing pairing and I really didn't want to bench either of them, and I never seriously considered benching Cruyff. I was very close to keeping the same formation and starting Tardelli ahead of Scholes though and I somewhat regret not trying that, but Tardelli doesn't seem to be particularly highly rated in drafts. I'm not sure if anything would have made much of a difference against Onenil's freaky attack :lol:.
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I'm not sure.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
I did consider playing all 3 midfielders but TBH I love that Barnes/Matthews wing pairing and I really didn't want to bench either of them, and I never seriously considered benching Cruyff. I was very close to keeping the same formation and starting Tardelli ahead of Scholes though and I somewhat regret not trying that, but Tardelli doesn't seem to be particularly highly rated in drafts. I'm not sure if anything would have made much of a difference against Onenil's freaky attack :lol:.
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Don't get me started on hard Italian cheese.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
That's probably how I should have lined up, although its a difficult call indeed to leave Scholes out on a Utd forum.
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I thought Scholes was the right man for the quick counters with his long passing. Cruyff really had to play centrally in this system and the wingers were definitely needed. IMO you played your best team and got Desailly and Hierro the right way round
 
Pat_Mustard said:
That's probably how I should have lined up, although its a difficult call indeed to leave Scholes out on a Utd forum.
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Actually, that would have been a good way around the Barnes/Cruyff conundrum. With Hierro back there you had the distribution from deep and Cruyff could have hovered around, getting stuck in and ready to start the transition ala Platini.

He would likely enjoy that, he would be the fulcrum he wasn't in some non-descript bitpart role out wide. Yeah, it was Scholes that had to go there.
 
Moby said:
It's not Henry or Messi, but that man up front tearing it apart. With the amount of service in behind him he can't really be stopped. Also Henry's runs towards goal will invite a lot of Messi's trademark lobs. It's rather well constructed not to mention Henry and Messi actually played on the left and right of a front three and along with Eto'o the three of them scored a century of goals, or close to it as far as I remember. Now there's Ronaldo in there.
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Yep that sums it up pretty perfectly, and as much as it's not a formation Henry or messi have really played in, it's hard to see them not thriving. So much emphasis would be placed on Ronaldo that Henry could get in behind at will and messi is one of the best in hosted at the behind the defence pass, he'd have a field day.
 
Onenil looks brilliant.

Voted for Pat though. I've got a soft spot for a very clear defend and counter set-up with a couple of very exploitable routes to goal.
 
@Pat_Mustard, great job building the side around Spencer's talents. Tough to then have someone like Cruyff available so late because you can't not pick him up. At least it was better match than our No Mates match where we both got it wrong
 
Enigma_87 said:
Nah IMO Cruyff is better where it is so that he's more influential to the game.

What I'd change is probably swap Hierro with Desailly. Desailly/Kohler IMO is a better fit to handle onenil forwards while Hierro is a good fit to Socrates, while with his technical ability gives more control to the middle with Scholes and Cruyff there.
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antohan said:
I figured right after I wrote that :lol:

I probably rate Barnes higher than most. Back then I didn't have tinted glasses, he was just a fecking great player.
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Yeh. I did suggest Desailly-Kohler as CB duo in the main draft thread. Maldini - Kohler - Desailly - Burgnich, with Schmeichel guarding the goal. How do you penetrate that?

Then get Hierro - Tardelli protecting defence, and then you can have Cruyff on the tip. So Anto can still fulfill his hard-on on Barnes. Hehehehee..
 
Isotope said:
Yeh. I did suggest Desailly-Kohler as CB duo in the main draft thread. Maldini - Kohler - Desailly - Burgnich, with Schmeichel guarding the goal. How do you penetrate that?

Then get Hierro - Tardelli protecting defence, and then you can have Cruyff on the tip. So Anto can still fulfill his hard-on on Barnes. Hehehehee..
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Yeah, that would have worked best as Hierro has this reputation for being slow which would be an issue vs. Ronaldo but not Socrates. He would also be a superb option for the defenders to distribute from the back.

-----------------Spencer
Barnes----------------------------Matthews
----------------Cruyff--Tardelli
----------------------Hierro
Maldini---Kohler----Desailly----Burgnich
--------------------Schmeichel

Was the optimal setup, and I sure would have voted for that. Cruyff in a Zidane type role as the transition dynamo.

I guess @Moby was right. You don't bench Cruyff but tinker to find him the key role he deserves.
 
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