Billy No Mates Draft: SF - Tuppet vs Enigma_87/MJJ

[Enigma_87]

Sometimes these asymmetrical formations are just confusing. Is Enigma playing a 4-2-4, a la Brazil 1970? or is it a 4-2-3-1?

It's closer to 4-2-3-1 rather to 4-2-4.

More likely 4-1-1-3-1

The difference is here that Keane is having more defensive minded functions and shielding the defence also having instructions to neutralize Di Stefano when in his zone, while Effenberg is with more box to box, similarly to Matthaus in Tuppet's formation.

Henry is more of a inside forward than a winger, but surely he will also track back, while Cruyff is playing in his favorite in the hole role.

Tuppet's formation is a bit the same however he's having Neeskens/Matthaus as box to box from what I see.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Di Stefano + Muller = Cryuff + Pele. Like Enigma's better purely due to personal preference.

Maldini can capably handle Figo, whereas Garrincha will get the better of Camacho at least a couple of times. On the flip side, I tend to give Pele the advantage over Nasazzi. Very little to read on Nasazzi, but then this is Pele. Supported by Cryuff, don't think they can keep Enigma out. And Nasazzi will not be happy to be dropped in earlier match

I'm leaning towards Tuppet simple because of his superior player quality in rest of the midfield.

Matthaus + Neeskens > Effenberg + Keane
Boniek + Garrincha > Henry + Figo

 

[mazhar13]

For me, I don't like Enigma/MJJ having too many centrally-oriented players in the team. Cruyff, Pelé, and Henry all like to play in the middle. Henry was always at his best as a more central forward for Monaco, Arsenal, and France, and him being in this more inside-left forward role will not be easy for him unless he has a left winger to exchange positions with. Henry was always at his best running into space. He wasn't that much of a dribbler, more of a ball carrier into space. He was more of a pass-and-move player; I don't see him taking on Victor Andrade that much, and if he does, Henry will struggle to get the better of him.

With Henry in this more inside-forward role, he needed someone to provide width on the left side who he can exchange with. At Barcelona, when he played on the left side, he had Eto'o creating lots of space for him as well as Messi with their lateral movement, something that he won't really get here with Pelé and Cruyff in this team.

Also, putting Keane back as a defensive shield isn't the best way to use him. He was never an anchor man ever in his career, and when he was deployed as one (albeit later in his career), he struggled in that role.

Compare Enigma/MJJ's to Tuppet's team, which is much better-balanced with players clearly complementing each other. Neeskens and Matthäus in a double-pivot setup is , with Boniek, di Stefano, and Garrincha causing havoc and Gerd Müller ahead of them...

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

You can consider dropping Figo and bringing on Cerezo in a 4-3-3.

Henry...Pele...Cryuff is a potent front 3.

 

[mazhar13]

You can consider dropping Figo and bringing on Cerezo in a 4-3-3.

Henry...Pele...Cryuff is a potent front 3.

Nah, I think they need to set up a double-pivot with Keane and Effenberg (similar to Ince-Keane), with Effenberg given more license to go forward (like Keane had). They then need to put Henry up front ahead of Pelé with Cruyff on a free role on the left similar to Pires. That way, Henry is in his perfect role, and Cruyff is in a comfortable role. Pelé being more of a second-striker sort of a #10 will suit Cruyff as well, who likes to dictate the game more in deeper areas. Figo will also be perfect here, combining with Henry/Pelé and being allowed to cut inside á la Ljungberg.

Now that team will give Tuppet's team a run for the money.

 

[Enigma_87]

Nah, I think they need to set up a double-pivot with Keane and Effenberg (similar to Ince-Keane), with Effenberg given more license to go forward (like Keane had). They then need to put Henry up front ahead of Pelé with Cruyff on a free role on the left similar to Pires. That way, Henry is in his perfect role, and Cruyff is in a comfortable role. Pelé being more of a second-striker sort of a #10 will suit Cruyff as well, who likes to dictate the game more in deeper areas. Figo will also be perfect here, combining with Henry/Pelé and being allowed to cut inside á la Ljungberg.

Now that team will give Tuppet's team a run for the money.

To be fair I was considering this and I think that might work better in depicting the players roles also bring a bit more balance.

@Physiocrat can you update the OP please.

 

[Enigma_87]

You can consider dropping Figo and bringing on Cerezo in a 4-3-3.

Henry...Pele...Cryuff is a potent front 3.

as a front 3 won't be up to par IMO.

With this personal we have similar formation so I think it will be more of what people prefer better. Tuppet has an edge in midfield, while we have in central defence.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Nah, I think they need to set up a double-pivot with Keane and Effenberg (similar to Ince-Keane), with Effenberg given more license to go forward (like Keane had). They then need to put Henry up front ahead of Pelé with Cruyff on a free role on the left similar to Pires. That way, Henry is in his perfect role, and Cruyff is in a comfortable role. Pelé being more of a second-striker sort of a #10 will suit Cruyff as well, who likes to dictate the game more in deeper areas. Figo will also be perfect here, combining with Henry/Pelé and being allowed to cut inside á la Ljungberg.

Now that team will give Tuppet's team a run for the money.

I think Tuppet has clear advantage of players in the wings and it's not be optimal to try and match them.
Enigma's players are better centrally, so a diamond or 4-3-3 is much better than the 4-2-3-1


....Henry......Pele......
...........Cryuff...........
..Effenberg...Keane....
..........Cerezo...........

Would give him the dominance in the middle and better ability to handle Di Stefano.

Tuppet has an edge in midfield

You really don't want to give AdS that edge, tbh!

 

[Enigma_87]

As Mazhar mentioned Cryuff here will be very similar to Pires role that can cut inside, he's also familiar on the left(and pretty much everywhere in attack as he is in fact the total footballer).

Pele will be in the hole combining with Pires and also Figo on the right.

Effenberg and Keane is a combo that is pretty much familiar to each other and I think as a CM is solid both in the defensive and offensive part. They should be able to hold their own in midfield and I believe Keane is the best defensive player out of the 4 CM's.

 

[Enigma_87]

I think Tuppet has clear advantage of players in the wings and it's not be optimal to try and match them.
Enigma's players are better centrally, so a diamond or 4-3-3 is much better than the 4-2-3-1


....Henry......Pele......
...........Cryuff...........
..Effenberg...Keane....
..........Cerezo...........

Would give him the dominance in the middle and better ability to handle Di Stefano.



You really don't want to give AdS that edge, tbh!

That would be too narrow mate, considering we are dropping Figo.

We still have 2 defensively excellent midfielders and a CB pair of Nesta/Baresi. I know that defense is often overlooked in terms of offense but I think both Nesta and Baresi can give an outstanding performance here.

 

[mazhar13]

Once that change becomes official, I do definitely see this being a draw or a slight win for Enigma/MJJ. Both teams will score goals as their midfields are more attack-oriented with very well-balanced attacks. Now, with Cruyff on the left, Andrade will have a tougher time keeping his side strong, particularly as he can cut inside and create space for Henry to run into.

Looking at Tuppet's defence, Passarella and Nasazzi will struggle with their more aggressive defensive approach. Whilst Passarella was a great attacking outlet from the defence, defensively, he was different from der Kaiser, Scirea, and Moore in that he was a more aggressive defender who picked his spots and tried to unsettle opponents quickly. Of course, he had the energy to recover if he did screw up, but I'm not sure Nasazzi is the best partner for him in slowing down opposition attacks enough to help him recover. With Enigma/MJJ's new setup, I certainly do see that central defence pairing getting stretched, and without anyone to really fill the gaps, Tuppet's aggressive defenders will get punished.

 

[mazhar13]

I think Tuppet has clear advantage of players in the wings and it's not be optimal to try and match them.
Enigma's players are better centrally, so a diamond or 4-3-3 is much better than the 4-2-3-1


....Henry......Pele......
...........Cryuff...........
..Effenberg...Keane....
..........Cerezo...........

Would give him the dominance in the middle and better ability to handle Di Stefano.

With that setup, Garrincha will have a field day as well as Boniek. Offensively, the same issue will remain: where's the width coming from to stretch Tuppet's defence? Cruyff and Henry would clearly clash there. Pelé's too central as a striker in a diamond (unlike someone like Sheva or Savićević), and whilst Keane and Effenberg will provide the energy to choke out Tuppet's midfield, he still has a very strong wide threat in Boniek and Garrincha.

What was needed here was for Enigma/MJJ to exploit the weaknesses of Tuppet's ultra-aggressive defence, which the new setup does perfectly.

 

[mazhar13]

I'll make my vote change official once @Physiocrat makes the changes.

 

[Enigma_87]

Once that change becomes official, I do definitely see this being a draw or a slight win for Enigma/MJJ. Both teams will score goals as their midfields are more attack-oriented with very well-balanced attacks. Now, with Cruyff on the left, Andrade will have a tougher time keeping his side strong, particularly as he can cut inside and create space for Henry to run into.

Looking at Tuppet's defence, Passarella and Nasazzi will struggle with their more aggressive defensive approach. Whilst Passarella was a great attacking outlet from the defence, defensively, he was different from der Kaiser, Scirea, and Moore in that he was a more aggressive defender who picked his spots and tried to unsettle opponents quickly. Of course, he had the energy to recover if he did screw up, but I'm not sure Nasazzi is the best partner for him in slowing down opposition attacks enough to help him recover. With Enigma/MJJ's new setup, I certainly do see that central defence pairing getting stretched, and without anyone to really fill the gaps, Tuppet's aggressive defenders will get punished.

I agree with you. Passarella and Nasazzi won't keep up the pace with our front four IMO.

Cruyff is fluent on the left as well and will have the freedom to pull back to receive the ball. In this way we have him against Andrade and to me we should have the slight advantage over the comparison Cruyff/Andrade to Garrincha/Camacho.

I'll make my vote change official once @Physiocrat makes the changes.

Thanks mate. I see that for the better as it will be more appealing to the eye as well, given EAP comments on the asymetrical 4-2-3-1.

We will have pretty similar formation(Boniek also tends to cut in from the left) and IMO our attack will give a greater run for the money centrally with wings in this formation(Cruyff there) would turn things up a bit(if we compare Cruyff/Figo to Boniek/Garrincha).

 

[Tuppet]

OOhhh thats a nice turn of events. So right off the bat, I was assuming the Pele you were playing was the goalscoring forward of 1958 ilk. Is it still the case ? or is it the more aristocratic game controlling 1970s Pele here ?

 

[Tuppet]

I'll make my vote change official once @Physiocrat makes the changes.

What !!

 

[mazhar13]

OOhhh thats a nice turn of events. So right off the bat, I was assuming the Pele you were playing was the goalscoring forward of 1958 ilk. Is it still the case ? or is it the more aristocratic game controlling 1970s Pele here ?

Pelé's role really didn't change that much throughout his career. As he got older, he did become slightly less direct, but he was still the same old second-striker that he always was. I mean, he played as a false 9 in the 1970 World Cup, being the perfect foil for Jairzinho's more direct, powerful approach. He's doing nothing different as a second striker for Enigma/MJJ, but I do find him better as a second striker than as a false 9/proper striker sort of player.

 

[mazhar13]

What !!

Convince me that your defence can really keep out Enigma/MJJ's attack more than theirs can, and I will make a vote change that won't negatively impact you.

 

[Enigma_87]

OOhhh thats a nice turn of events. So right off the bat, I was assuming the Pele you were playing was the goalscoring forward of 1958 ilk. Is it still the case ? or is it the more aristocratic game controlling 1970s Pele here ?

Pele played as a central forward(or striker whatever you call it), SS, to AM. Here he'll be in the hole off Henry.

Here's a bit of highlights to see how ambidextrous he was - both with both feet, passing, heading - he got it all.


Freekicks


Dribbling skills


Left (weak) footed goals


Headers


edit: credit to @Loublaze for providing the links.

 

[Tuppet]

Pelé's role really didn't change that much throughout his career. As he got older, he did become slightly less direct, but he was still the same old second-striker that he always was. I mean, he played as a false 9 in the 1970 World Cup, being the perfect foil for Jairzinho's more direct, powerful approach. He's doing nothing different as a second striker for Enigma/MJJ, but I do find him better as a second striker than as a false 9/proper striker sort of player.

Well I guess I kind of disagree, I think the 1970s Pele was a much more controlling player and its going to be hard to see Cruyff stacking well with him, who needs ball pretty much all the time. It also does not give you anywhere close to the peak Cruyff.

But there is another issue, if Cruyff to moved left, then its pretty much a 4-2-4, and the control of the midfield is completely conceded here. I don't see Keane-Effenberg keeping up with Di-Stefano - Matthaus - Neeskens at all. I pretty much control the game and will have a major share of possession. With Cruyff's energy I could see them keeping up with my midfield somewhat, but Pele is not going to help out at all.

 

[Tuppet]

Pele played as a central forward(or striker whatever you call it), SS, to AM. Here he'll be in the hole off Henry.

Here's a bit of highlights to see how ambidextrous he was - both with both feet, passing, heading - he got it all.

I don't think I dispute Pele's greatness at all, its just the fit between your two best player that I question.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well I guess I kind of disagree, I think the 1970s Pele was a much more controlling player and its going to be hard to see Cruyff stacking well with him, who needs ball pretty much all the time. It also does not give you anywhere close to the peak Cruyff.

But there is another issue, if Cruyff to moved left, then its pretty much a 4-2-4, and the control of the midfield is completely conceded here. I don't see Keane-Effenberg keeping up with Di-Stefano - Matthaus - Neeskens at all. I pretty much control the game and will have a major share of possession. With Cruyff's energy I could see them keeping up with my midfield somewhat, but Pele is not going to help out at all.

Cruyff can play all around the attack and even the midfield. For the game in 1971 for example against Pana he started as a CM with Rijnders and Muhren. Cruyff can help the midfield I think that's indisputable which should balance things out as I don't see Garrincha helping out.

He's in a free role coming from the left and also cutting inside.

Cruyff main asset and the one that he always have said was his passing/vision and reading of the game. He played all over the attack and you can easily see him on the left, in the center and in his own half. I don't think we will take anything from his game having him wide.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

But there is another issue, if Cruyff to moved left, then its pretty much a 4-2-4, and the control of the midfield is completely conceded here. I don't see Keane-Effenberg keeping up with Di-Stefano - Matthaus - Neeskens at all.

Hard to disagree with this.

 

[Enigma_87]

But there is another issue, if Cruyff to moved left, then its pretty much a 4-2-4, and the control of the midfield is completely conceded here. I don't see Keane-Effenberg keeping up with Di-Stefano - Matthaus - Neeskens at all. I pretty much control the game and will have a major share of possession. With Cruyff's energy I could see them keeping up with my midfield somewhat, but Pele is not going to help out at all.

It's similar with your formation mate. Both Figo and Cruyff are perfectly capable aiding the midfield. You have AdS in the #10 role I don't think you are playing a 4-3-3 with him in midfield either.

out of the midfield four I think Keane is the best one defensively and Effenberg is as well a great support. Sure Matthaus is better, but I'd rank Keane ahead of Neeskens and with Cruyff/Figo helping out I think that would balance it a bit.

Hard to disagree with this.

there are still 11 players on the pitch. If we compare 3 vs 2 it's always a disadvantage somewhere else.

If we put it like this then how about Pele/Cruyff/Henry against Passarella/Nasazzi?

I'd argue that AdS defensive contribution is better than Cruyff's. Both are quite similar in that sense.

 

[mazhar13]

But there is another issue, if Cruyff to moved left, then its pretty much a 4-2-4, and the control of the midfield is completely conceded here. I don't see Keane-Effenberg keeping up with Di-Stefano - Matthaus - Neeskens at all. I pretty much control the game and will have a major share of possession. With Cruyff's energy I could see them keeping up with my midfield somewhat, but Pele is not going to help out at all.

When Enigma/MJJ have the ball, it'll be a similar problem for you to deal with as well. di Stefano didn't have that much of a defensive contribution to help out Real Madrid, and he won't have it in this team either. Neeskens and Matthäus, whilst they were beastly midfielders, were both quite aggressive off the ball, and I can see your team getting dragged around whilst trying to unsettle Pelé or whoever else drifts inside.

That's why, for me, it's a draw, but if I was forced to pick a winner, it'll be Enigma/MJJ just because Passarella/Nasazzi is a weak point in your team.

 

[Tuppet]

When Enigma/MJJ have the ball, it'll be a similar problem for you to deal with as well. di Stefano didn't have that much of a defensive contribution to help out Real Madrid, and he won't have it in this team either. Neeskens and Matthäus, whilst they were beastly midfielders, were both quite aggressive off the ball, and I can see your team getting dragged around whilst trying to unsettle Pelé or whoever else drifts inside.

That's why, for me, it's a draw, but if I was forced to pick a winner, it'll be Enigma/MJJ just because Passarella/Nasazzi is a weak point in your team.

Well safe to say that I completely disagree with the bolded part. Di Stefano's influence in defensive phase of the game is of different level to Pele.

I think without a doubt I have better control I middle. Both with or without the ball my midfield is on a much higher level.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

there are still 11 players on the pitch. If we compare 3 vs 2 it's always a disadvantage somewhere else.

It's Effenberg, mainly. I don't think he's all that at this stage. Very good player, obviously - some sort of complete beast of the Neeskens ilk, however, he clearly isn't. A bit too slow, a bit too weak defensively - in short, not quite up to scratch given what you're asking him to do here.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well safe to say that I completely disagree with the bolded part. Di Stefano's influence in defensive phase of the game is of different level to Pele.

I think without a doubt I have better control I middle. Both with or without the ball my midfield is on a much higher level.

I think you are overrating Di Stefano's contribution to midfield in a way. Out of all attacking options in both team besides the back 5 and our CM, the best player defensively has to be Cruyff. As I said he used to play as a CM as well in a lot of games and his defensive side is not to be underestimated. Pele also stuck in and even you can see Henry tracking back and getting a sliding tackle. I think off the ball we can balance the things out in midfield. Our players are not static and pinned to their positions they can contribute in the 2 phases. One thing for sure is that I can't see Garrincha helping on the right side regardless of you are with or without the ball. You can single out Effenberg but still he was arguably Bayern Munich best player in 99-01, winning 3 Bundesliga's, and making it to 2 CL finals, winning one of them as a captain.

I don't think we would have an issue having Keane/Effenberg midfield as both of them match IMO excellently in their respective games. As Mazhar said as dynamic and excellent they were I'd rather see a more defensive minded midfielder next to Matthaus to give him a more free box to box role.

It's Effenberg, mainly. I don't think he's all that at this stage. Very good player, obviously - some sort of complete beast of the Neeskens ilk, however, he clearly isn't. A bit too slow, a bit too weak defensively - in short, not quite up to scratch given what you're asking him to do here.

As I said, I don't consider Effenberg to be on par with Matthaus or Neeskens, however I do think that we have an edge in Keane vs Neeskens. In their respective roles(Keane/Neeskens, Matthaus/Effenberg) everyone contributes to the team in a different way. For example in ours Effenberg with his playmaking skills and passing range from the deep. He's still tough in tackle, he's a leader and born winner, won't wane under pressure and on top I think they compliment pretty well with Keane.

Of course Tuppet will have advantage in some places and we will have in others, it's a fair matchup.

For me the edge he has in midfield we have in defence(mainly due to our CB pair) and up front I can see Pele/Cruyf/Henry doing a bit more damage against Tuppet's CB pair.

as for Cruyff and the way he can help out the midfield(even defence) if someone is thinking it's overrated should see the 74 WC - he was pretty much everywhere, every move started with him, he dropped back to receive the ball and with one-two's made his way up the pitch, you can see him combining with Krol and Suurbuer and next with Rensenbrink. He defended in his own half as well, sometimes even near the penalty area. His positional sense and reading of the game really helped him to be as complete he truly was.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Two surreal teams without any weaknesses bar maybe a slightly compromised role for the central midfielders here. Looks pretty natural for me if Effenberg takes the slightly deeper playmaking role with his great vision and passing while Keane does his regular box to box job instead of a sort of DM hybrid job. At the same time Matthäus and Neeskens are also a bit handcuffed if they aren't allowed to just go havoc.

Would prefer both teams just letting the central midfielders play their natural game to the fullest. Can't see beyond a draw though, hard to justify one team being significantly stronger here.

 

[MJJ]

Bump

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 Change made. Sorry I was asleep.

 

[Enigma_87]

OK, seems this one is out of our reach at this point.

That Beckenbauer/Pele block did it for us in the SF. Congratulations @Tuppet and good luck in the final

 

[Gio]

OK, seems this one is out of our reach at this point.

That Beckenbauer/Pele block did it for us in the SF. Congratulations @Tuppet and good luck in the final

That was a bit unfortunate. The Baresi-Nesta-Beckenbauer-Cruyff-Pele spine was becoming exceptional.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I think Tuppet has clear advantage of players in the wings and it's not be optimal to try and match them.
Enigma's players are better centrally, so a diamond or 4-3-3 is much better than the 4-2-3-1


....Henry......Pele......
...........Cryuff...........
..Effenberg...Keane....
..........Cerezo...........

Would give him the dominance in the middle and better ability to handle Di Stefano.



You really don't want to give AdS that edge, tbh!

The king of diamonds. Edgar Allan Pillow.

 

[Tuppet]

OK, seems this one is out of our reach at this point.

That Beckenbauer/Pele block did it for us in the SF. Congratulations @Tuppet and good luck in the final

That was really unfortunate mate, I have no doubt you would have won otherwise. It was a good game nonetheless.

 

[harms]

Yep, Beckenbauer would've been a difference between losing and winning in this game for Enigma. Unfortunate feck-up

 

[RedTiger]

Sorry @Enigma_87 and @MJJ I didn't see the thread. I would have voted for your team though.

 

[mazhar13]

I just thought of this, but I honestly think that Enigma/MJJ could have been better-off with Beckenbauer instead of Pelé starting the match. Cruyff could have been in his favourite false 9 role, and then you have Henry and Figo up front dovetailing off of him. Beckenbauer, Effenberg, and Keane is one proper midfield in itself, and that really could have turned the game on its head for Enigma/MJJ.

 

[Enigma_87]

That was a bit unfortunate. The Baresi-Nesta-Beckenbauer-Cruyff-Pele spine was becoming exceptional.

Yeah it would've been hard to beat that one.

That was really unfortunate mate, I have no doubt you would have won otherwise. It was a good game nonetheless.

Thanks, mate. You have also compiled a very good team yourself. You only need a class CB to partner Passarella and I think you are set.

Sorry @Enigma_87 and @MJJ I didn't see the thread. I would have voted for your team though.

No worries, I think the feck up set us back with a pick which is crucial for the final as well. We would still had to fill 2 positions instead of 1 to make the final competitive, so I think at the end Tuppet can give a better fight in it, so good luck to him.

I just thought of this, but I honestly think that Enigma/MJJ could have been better-off with Beckenbauer instead of Pelé starting the match. Cruyff could have been in his favourite false 9 role, and then you have Henry and Figo up front dovetailing off of him. Beckenbauer, Effenberg, and Keane is one proper midfield in itself, and that really could have turned the game on its head for Enigma/MJJ.

Nah, we would've been seen light in attack and IMO this is more important for the voters than the defence/midfield.