Younger giggs was very capable of cutting in and did so to great success. Given that there is no left winger(Gios), I don't see space being that much of an issue. I ideally wanted someone like boniek in that flank as I do share your concern but can see it working well with giggs as well given gio's formation.
Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - Enigma_87/MJJ vs Gio
- Thread starter Physiocrat
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Younger giggs was very capable of cutting in and did so to great success. Given that there is no left winger(Gios), I don't see space being that much of an issue. I ideally wanted someone like boniek in that flank as I do share your concern but can see it working well with giggs as well given gio's formation.
Another point that hasn't been raised so far is that normally when a side employs a wingback, they either have an extra defender or a dedicated DM. Here whenever facchetti goes on a run it will leave gio a man short at the back. nesta will go out left to cover and it will break any defensive shape that you have.
Nesta-Chumpitaz-Andrade-Souness (?) Against Giggs-Henry-Cruyff and Figo? Yes please .
Nesta-Chumpitaz-Andrade-Souness (?) Against Giggs-Henry-Cruyff and Figo? Yes please .
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I'm not sure why not many people have picked on gio flanks for fielding a formation with two wing backs and right winger 
seems like they are getting a bit of a free pass only as names on the team sheet rather than whether if they will gel together.
seems like they are getting a bit of a free pass only as names on the team sheet rather than whether if they will gel together.Not really, no team keeps a back four behind the play at all times. If you have a front four that are going to stay up the park and not contribute off the ball, you'll get destroyed in the modern game. If you want to do that then fine, but Facchetti will have an absolute field day.
No? Name me one side in the modern game that employs a wingback without a dedicated DM or CB.
I agree that no team keeps a backfour behind all the time but f ullbacks are primarily concerned with defensive duties and support in attack. You are relying on facchetti providing width and attacking down the left hand side with no one to cover.
Andrade also isn't a defensive fullback, it's basic suicide against top class forwards hence greaves playing off centre in your formation to make it seen like you are less reliant on facchetti for width.
What also happens when Finney drifts to the left and you lose the ball? Andrade up against giggs and Camacho ?
Football isn't as rigid as you describe. The general principle is to keep 3 behind the ball. So you don't do a Keegan Newcastle and send both full-backs forward and keep a high midfield. Most modern teams play with full-backs advancing, centre-halves splitting and a holding midfielder dropping in. Souness's Liverpool did that - he said it on Sky a few weeks ago - as did Brazil in 1994, Barcelona in recent times and basically everyone else worth their salt. As you'll see we have a designated holding midfielder in Souness, reprising his Liverpool role. If Facchetti has the opportunity to go, then Souness drops in. Simple, straightforward and par for the course in the modern game.
Anyone doubting whether Zico will be kept quiet... here he is scoring a stunning overhead against Baresi's Milan in Serie A.
Souness played a box to box role at Liverpool,not a pure DM who did backs and anchors the mid. He isn't that suites to that role imo as was a more proactive player.
If souness drops to left back to cover for facchetti is Cruyff free in the center of the park?
Barca had busquets sitting, with one wingback in dani alves and one centreback-cum- fullbsck in abidal. Andrade isn't as defensive as abidal or as good a fullvack.
Brazil 94 had not one but two SMs sitting in front of the defense to make up for the fullbacks rampaging forward.
So no modern team has employed a wingback without either a third defender or a dedicated DM sitting in front of the defense.
You can't do the same here as you only have one defensive box to box in souness and he is tasked with keeping Cruyff in check. Your defense will be exposed with facchetti playing as a wingback and Andrade doing similar out wide on the right. You also have noone helping either of the fullbacks since Finney has a free role in attack.
It's defensive suicide.
Anyone doubting whether Zico will be kept quiet... here he is scoring a stunning overhead against Baresi's Milan in Serie A.
As good as zico is, Cruyff is better. And he doesn't have to deal with a crowded mid where iniesta will be pushing into his space and no real options other than a fullbackand Finney to provide width.
Whereas giggs Henry and figo will stretch the defense and Cruyff will have all the time to do his thing.
Defensive suicide with Facchetti, Nesta, Chumpitaz, Andrade and Souness anchoring? It's hard to envisage a better defence.
Souness is fine in that position. He wasn't as limited as a Makelele but he offered all of the same defensive protection with added quality on the ball. I've been very clear in the formation picture and in the OP about his role here. As I said in the last post, he was on Sky a few weeks ago saying he played in the very same set-up. He'd get the ball, the full-backs would move forward and he'd drop into the defensive hole. Standard fare.
How is Andrade anchoring, isn't he supposed to be on the right side?
I find a lot of issues with the setup to be fair and I don't think so far you have made a convincing case that either will work to be fair.
You have Facchetti up against 2 world class wide players but assuming he's so good he'll cope with both.
Andrade is somehow now one of the best RB in history based on the premise that he played in 2-3-5 and somehow that will translate to 4-3-3 in modern game. At the same time he's positioned as some kind of a wing back just behind your right winger and that is assuming they wont clog the same area.
Then we have assuming Andrade is fast, pacy, quick all throughout his peak, which by the way no one knows when it is, yet disregarding health and physical issues that would constrain him in a battle against one of the greatest left wingers in the game who is the fastest on the pitch with Henry and Cruyff.
Next is Iniesta in the same Barca role assuming Souness will anchor the team in the same way Busquets/Yaya have done, regardless that he's rather box to box and not in the same role. Next you have Bozsik who is primarily attacking asset and much much less mobile than a modern day Xavi, but we're assuming that that CM trio would work.
Then you have Chumpitaz as a CB that is supposedly to stop peak Henry on the ground.
^^^ just look the space Muller is left in the box to form his hattrick.
^^^ this game as well. Gerson's Brazil that put 4 past Peru.
Granted Peru are weak team compared to the rest but look at Chumpitaz positioning in those goals...
In Gio's team I can see at least 4 people that are not in the best position role.
Greaves is not central but left sided second striker of sorts, the Andrade gate where there's absolutely no record of him being at his best at right back and Guardian even comparing him to Zinedine Zidane.
Then you have Souness as a DM when he's box to box partnered with Iniesta who is in his Barca role with 2 midfielders exactly opposite of that Barca midfield and Finney that is supposed to cut inside? Then he's supposedly help defensively like Figo but at the same time given free role?
On the other side we have our flank full back/ winger combo that pair well. CB that is solid partnership on top of being individually excellent. Gerson having Effenberg as a partner who is very similar to Clodoaldo in 1970 in terms of what has to offer. Cruyff in his favorite role while on the wings has Giggs and Figo and Henry in attack who are certainly an upgrade to Keiser, Rep and Rensenbrink but fit as well as those three.
I think our biggest asset, apart from individual brilliance of Cruyff and Baresi is also having more balance than Gio's side.
Gio's side has a lot of assumptions whether or not it will work or whether or not his players actually played in those positions or whether a sole man flan in Facchetti will do the job.
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Ah it's 12 v 11. Feel free to ignore my earlier posts on how it works if Amoros gets the ball.
It's hilarious how much you've bigged up Andrade's post-injury condition, completely ignoring how much Giggs slowed up in his late 20s and 30s compared to his 30s. As if it actually matters given we're taking both players at their peak.
Of course they'll work: each has the same position they have occupied for club and country. And there's a nice mix of qualities there and a complementarity with their collective passing ability. It's the better midfield on the park.
It's Chumpitaz's central defensive partner Fuentes who is at fault for the three goals there. The first and third goal he misses the header, the second the right-back is skinned and Chumpitaz has to try and salvage a 3v2 situation.
In the grand scheme of things, Chumpitaz stands higher in the all-time positional rankings than Henry. He's one of the greatest South American defenders of all time. If he's not starting in an all-time South American XI, he's on the bench at worst. Could we say the same about Henry and a European equivalent?
And he's partnering the great Alessandro Nesta here, not some Peruvian no-mark. It's an impeccable partnership.
ANDRES INIESTA - UP AGAINST EFFENBERG, AMOROS AND RUGGERI - CAN THEY STOP HIM?
Almost guaranteed a match-winning performance in the big games. The grander the stage, the better the performance. And his super-silky-skills shine brightest in the inside-left channel, where he'll up against probably the weakest axis in Enigma/MJJ's team, Effenberg if he's not chasing Zico, Amoros if he's not overlapping, and Ruggeri if he's not following Zico. None of those players match up well to Iniesta.
Almost guaranteed a match-winning performance in the big games. The grander the stage, the better the performance. And his super-silky-skills shine brightest in the inside-left channel, where he'll up against probably the weakest axis in Enigma/MJJ's team, Effenberg if he's not chasing Zico, Amoros if he's not overlapping, and Ruggeri if he's not following Zico. None of those players match up well to Iniesta.
Sure, but I was replying to the statement that he would 'relish' the opportunity to face someone like Cruyff when he doesn't come across someone who can punch above his weight when the situation needs it and put in a match winning performance, something someone like Matthaus is capable of, for example. Sure, he was a key asset to have in that Liverpool team and someone who combined defensive steel with neat ability on the ball to drive the team forward, which was obviously invaluable in that Liverpool team, but was he someone who could capable fulfilling any role to it's ultimate extent, within his capabilities as a central midfielder even if that role inhibits some of the qualities that were the reason he stood out often? His qualities on the ball are largely redundant with Bozsik next to him, and he has a specialist role here, not an all-round midfield dominating one that you speak of, and here he simply doesn't come across who would put in a selfless shift for the team and also pull if off completely, e.g. Schweinsteiger 2014 WC final, or Baresi 1994 WC final, and that is certainly what is needed here, not a soul in the world would 'relish' the opportunity of facing Johan Cruyff, let alone singlehandedly.
It's not only if Amoros gets the ball. In the grand scheme of things it's either Iniesta or Facchetti that will have to cover two positions. If you have the ball naturally our wide players can tuck in as well.
We're not comparing Giggs in his 30's or late 20's we're comparing peak Giggs here. So we're doing with Andrade's peak, but so far you have evaded on multiple time the question when exactly is Andrade's peak?
Which Andrade we're talking here? Young one? Experienced one? All you showed for Andrade is France football ranking when he was 29 as the WC was founded in 1930.
I'm sure even you don't know if Andrade on RB position will work at all in 4-3-3 formation, you just use Anto's posts as reference
All other sources put his best in midfield.And how that goes? Bozsik is used to play in midfield 2. Souness is box to box, here is a anchor who is supposed to mark Cruyff when he's in his zone?
Souness and Bozsik will not give the same defensive cover as Xavi and Busquets.
So is Ruggeri who is a WC winner and also WC finalist putting impressive defensive record in that tournament. For Chumpitaz we have a world cup that his team leaked 9 goals 3 games. Sure he's rated highly, but on that mark so is Ruggeri.
Nice try on Henry but there are always more strikers than defenders. Will Chumpitaz make the bench in European equivalent of CB's?
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I agree with all what Aldo is saying.
Souness singlehandedly stopping Cruyff? Good luck with that:
Just look when Cruyff is in possession - usually there are 3 man around him not one!
^^ 40 seconds in there are 5 defenders around him when he has the ball.
Just see both videos and tell me that only Souness can keep Cruyff.
Jose Andrade - defensive quality:
Jose Andrade - overall calibre:
- Journalist Raul Barbero: "In all the major finals not once did an opposition goal originate on his side of the pitch... a sense of positioning and timing which allowed him to be in the right place at the right time to avoid a goal... defended from 'head to toe'
- 1924 Olympic final, against a free-scoring Switzerland. Their star player, Abegglen was the tournament top scorer so far. He operated at inside left, Andrade shut him out: 3-0
- 1928 Olympic final, against eternal rivals Argentina. Top scorer of the tournament Tarasconi, inside left, shut out. 1-1 and 2-1 (no ET or penos then), both Argentine goals came from the other flank.
- 1930 World Cup final, again against Argentina, who had the tournos top scorer again (Stábile was a CF though). Andrade was man of the match keeping Uruguay in the game while still 2-1 down with a fantastic covering interception on Stábile and also at 2-2. Both goals scored from the left flank again.
- Played right half-back for Uruguay in their 2-3-2-3. Typical formation showed in image below, but his role is even wider in Jonothan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid.
- Marked the opposition outside-left
- Proven at highest level shutting out the outside left in major tournaments
- Skillset suited to right half-back or modern full-back role
Jose Andrade - overall calibre:
- IFFHS Football Player of the Century: 29th
- FIFA World Cup: Bronze Ball 1930
- FIFA World Cup: All-Star Team 1930
- France Football's World Cup Top-100 1930–1990:10th
- Olympic Games - Gold Medal (2):1924, 1928
- FIFA World Cup Winner:1930
- South American Championship Winner (3):1923, 1924, 1926; Runner up:1927
This is very close but I see Gio's front line working that bit better, I don't think Henry and Giggs will click.
2-1 to Gio.
2-1 to Gio.
I don't need the accolades for the entire career mate. If I start putting what Giggs and Figo won during their careers I'll be out of symbols in a single post.
Simple question, when was Andrade's peak? Which year/s? Or he was in his prime 6 years running?
From the above quotes I read only inside left, inside left which is nowhere near the modern RB position you are claiming he'd play at.
Then claiming that 2-3-2-3 whatever is somehow even remotely similar to 4 at the back in modern system is completely absurd.
There's Andrade article by Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/24/before-pele-there-was-andrade
I don't see anywhere to back up the claim that Andrade was natural right back in modern equivalent. None. And to put a player that played like Sarosi in 38 different positions all over the pitch with ball/vision and passing quality that he's had and to put him right back sounds like criminal decision to me.
Neeskens played as a right back in the beginning of his career, should we consider him as a world class right back on the basis of being a world class midfielder?
Why do you think Greaves in that role and Zico will click mate? Also Finney on the right side?
I think Henry and Cruyff fit like glove as well.
Gio has 3 attacking outlets in Zico, Greaves and Finney as Iniesta is pretty much occupied with defensive role, I can't see that being better than our attack or he having a CB like Baresi who is capable of pulling a one off performance like he did against Romario and Bebeto in the world cup..
Simple question, when was Andrade's peak? Which year/s? Or he was in his prime 6 years running?
From the above quotes I read only inside left, inside left which is nowhere near the modern RB position you are claiming he'd play at.
Then claiming that 2-3-2-3 whatever is somehow even remotely similar to 4 at the back in modern system is completely absurd.
There's Andrade article by Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/24/before-pele-there-was-andrade
I don't see anywhere to back up the claim that Andrade was natural right back in modern equivalent. None. And to put a player that played like Sarosi in 38 different positions all over the pitch with ball/vision and passing quality that he's had and to put him right back sounds like criminal decision to me.
Neeskens played as a right back in the beginning of his career, should we consider him as a world class right back on the basis of being a world class midfielder?
Why do you think Greaves in that role and Zico will click mate? Also Finney on the right side?
I think Henry and Cruyff fit like glove as well.
Gio has 3 attacking outlets in Zico, Greaves and Finney as Iniesta is pretty much occupied with defensive role, I can't see that being better than our attack or he having a CB like Baresi who is capable of pulling a one off performance like he did against Romario and Bebeto in the world cup..
Yes, they won't give the same defensive cover: they'll give more. Bozsik was positionally disciplined and strong in the tackle. Souness just outstrips Busquets in every defensive respect bar the one-touch-give-and-go.
It's a really random and barrel-scraping criticism though. "Bozsik and Souness played in midfield twos - therefore they won't fit here". Or "Iniesta is in a midfield three, but isn't with Busquets and Xavi so he won't cut it". Well newsflash! This is an all-time fantasy draft. And I'll save you the bother of grilling you on how Gerson has never played in a 4-2-3-1, or how Henry has never played with a left-footed-touchline-hogging-left-winger who will prevent him from making his typical runs out wide.
I'd imagine it was sometime between him winning the South American Championship in 1923, 1924 and 1926, and the Olympic Gold s in 1924 and 1928. So his mid-20s? Later in his career he moved further forward as he finally become more reliant on his technical ability, but in his mid-20s he was at his physical and defensive peak.
What you've shown is that Andrade was a complete footballer who excelled in different phases of play. If you don't accept the premise that players from the pre-4-4-2 or 4-3-3 era can operate in an all-time fantasy draft, then we may as well pack up and go home. Otherwise what is the point? Did Neeskens shut out the opposing outside-left time and time again? Did Neeskens win major international trophies doing just that? It's a childish comparison to be honest.
You'll need both Bozsik and Souness just to cover Cruyff. If you leave only Souness one on one to Cruyf he'll destroy him most of the time. We're talking about peak Cruyff here, there's really no higher level besides him.
My point regarding Iniesta/Bozsik and Souness is that they will not work in that formation. Souness was not the player that you put him here and give him role to do and Iniesta can't rely on the same partnership he had in Barca and Spain(most of whom were the same by the way).
Also if you say Giggs is left footed touchline hoggling left winger I think you're either confusing him with Finney or you haven't see him in his pump and his prime.
Is he hugging the touchline here?
or here
Nor do I.
Let's say Giggs does get past Andrade and slings a cross for Henry to attack. Do we think he's going to beat Nesta or Chumpitaz in the air?
And how will Henry peel left if Giggs is already in the space? Sure he can do it, but it won't be optimal.
That's one of the best ones yet. So Iniesta won't perform outside of Barca/Spain? Pity that, he'll be useless in this draft. And I'm sure various managers were gutted when I got him at turn 5. And Souness and Bozsik will need to play in two-man central midfield partnerships to shine. I mean, surely you don't really believe that bollocks do you?So if it was in his mid 20's then those World cup accolades become void don't you think
Also you put a formation that you claim can be translated to right back in 4-3-3 but in the same time:I find a lot of those confusing, also in those quotes and supposedly peak years he was not quoted to play in the position you are using him in.
It doesn't work like that tho. So since Andrade can play in 5 different positions he's world beater in ALL of them? Is Neeskens the one of the best right backs? Cause certainly he's in midfield.
I don't buy the premise that a player who played in 5 different positions is equally best in all of them. Don't you agree?
I said nothing like that.
I said that he won't fit in your formation due to the other personal in it. As Aldo pointed Souness and Bozsik roles cover and clog each others, never stated they need to play in two man midfield, just won't work in this one I really find odd that Giggs is considered a left-footed-touchline-hogging-left-winger on United forum. Really odd.
Cmoon mate, you can do better than that - Giggs who has over 160 goals in modern football and scored in every season he played can only cross the ball?
I'm appalled that you think Giggs game is not cutting in, it's like you talk about Valencia for a moment here.
^^ here's a compilation with some of his younger years when he was crazy fast.
Some serious line hugging there. Especially where he scores in the box against Chelsea and waltzes through the entire Juve side twice.
So if it was in his mid 20's then those World cup accolades become void don't you think
I find a lot of those confusing, also in those quotes and supposedly peak years he was not quoted to play in the position you are using him in.
Here is how he played for Uruguay in the 1920s Olympics and 1930 World Cup. And here is how he plays for me.
[Source: Inverting the Pyramid]
I think the debate around Andrade's role and positioning is an interesting one. Although he played in a 2-3-5, it's vital to remember that it was not all set in stone and some teams had slight variations in roles, which made a world of a difference. I remember reading somewhere that he played as a wing-half, almost akin to a modern wing-back, in a fairly reputable source (can't remember where) from some time back, but then again there are other sources which claim he played in a fairly central role. Will probably need to do more research on that before coming to a decision on that issue. However, from what I've read about him he did seem like a fairly athletic player who was clearly ahead of his peers and wasn't exactly someone who was lacking physically. Reckon this is the tackle that @Gio is referring to that anto posted some time back
Souness in a holding midfielder role of sorts is also another key point of contention. I've seen a fair few games where he plays a fairly disciplined role in front of the back 4 (the game against Brazil in 1982 for example) and he did seem to be at home at that role. With Iniesta's industry and Bozsik's disciplined and defensively astute game, I don't quite have an issue with Souness there. However, in saying that it's Cruyff he's squaring up against, so it's going to be a tough battle for him overall, as much as I rate him. It's also key to note that Cruyff will be roaming around the pitch and won't be just rigidly sticking to the #10 role, squaring up against Souness repeatedly (although he would probably be the player he faces most often), so it's also more of a team effort defending against Cruyff and not a one man job, unless of course, you are man-marking him ala Vogts.
Love MJJ's defense and that central defensive pairing is brilliant. Rate Ruggeri pretty highly myself and whilst he was beast-like aerially, he had an excellent game on the deck too. He has two brilliant flanks in Camacho-Giggs & Amoros-Figo who complement each other very well. Can see Baresi shining here and it's always hard to look past Cruyff. Just have slight reservations about the Gerson-Effenberg pairing though, although it's nothing significant given Effenberg's all-round game. Likewise Gio has an excellent set-up imo and I can see it working pretty well. Can see that midfield trio clicking really well and Zico has an excellent set-up built around him, with a top notch playmaker in Bozsik and someone who can connect it all together really well in Iniesta. Do think perhaps Andrade might have been given a slightly more disciplined role to balance Facchetti's LWB role, esp with Souness having his hands full with Cruyff.
Can't really decide now, will vote later depending on how the discussions go.
Souness in a holding midfielder role of sorts is also another key point of contention. I've seen a fair few games where he plays a fairly disciplined role in front of the back 4 (the game against Brazil in 1982 for example) and he did seem to be at home at that role. With Iniesta's industry and Bozsik's disciplined and defensively astute game, I don't quite have an issue with Souness there. However, in saying that it's Cruyff he's squaring up against, so it's going to be a tough battle for him overall, as much as I rate him. It's also key to note that Cruyff will be roaming around the pitch and won't be just rigidly sticking to the #10 role, squaring up against Souness repeatedly (although he would probably be the player he faces most often), so it's also more of a team effort defending against Cruyff and not a one man job, unless of course, you are man-marking him ala Vogts.
Love MJJ's defense and that central defensive pairing is brilliant. Rate Ruggeri pretty highly myself and whilst he was beast-like aerially, he had an excellent game on the deck too. He has two brilliant flanks in Camacho-Giggs & Amoros-Figo who complement each other very well. Can see Baresi shining here and it's always hard to look past Cruyff. Just have slight reservations about the Gerson-Effenberg pairing though, although it's nothing significant given Effenberg's all-round game. Likewise Gio has an excellent set-up imo and I can see it working pretty well. Can see that midfield trio clicking really well and Zico has an excellent set-up built around him, with a top notch playmaker in Bozsik and someone who can connect it all together really well in Iniesta. Do think perhaps Andrade might have been given a slightly more disciplined role to balance Facchetti's LWB role, esp with Souness having his hands full with Cruyff.
Can't really decide now, will vote later depending on how the discussions go.
That's implied but not as clear as I should have made it. The formation picture shows Andrade a few yards deeper than Facchetti. I've also focused my team-talk spiel on the opportunity for the Italian to move forward to do what he does best, and I've said that, when that happens, we'd move to a back three. I'd also add, in the spirit of fairness about Andrade, I don't think he'd be ideally suited to a box-to-box Dani Alves style wing-back role - more elegant and less crash-bang-wallop. Hence why he'd complement Facchetti IMO.
Here is how he played for Uruguay in the 1920s Olympics and 1930 World Cup. And here is how he plays for me.
[Source: Inverting the Pyramid]
This is in regards to the WC in 1930.
Also why did you cut the Uruguay formation and which olympic game is that? After he had the eye incident in 1928 he was returned back to more defensive position as he had limited pace and physical attributes.
So we're looking at Andrade in the mid 20's as physical and career peak when as you said it was the transition he would play a more forward role, don't you agree?
Sorry you've got a lot of things the wrong way round here. I have no idea where you have been getting inside-left from. He ultimately ended his career as an inside-forward. He played his best years at right wing-half as per the formation above. Which is by and large the same role he has for me.
From your quote above:
If he's playing inside left and Andrade is shutting him out shouldn't that be inside right?
Same for 1928.
How can he play outside right and keeping players shut that are inside left?
Also most reputable sources I have cite him as side back not wing back. Wing back is what we consider nowdays as a full back. Side back are midfield players and usually had more advanced role back then.
Think you're a bit confused now mate. The left winger always faces the rightback or whatever variations of these roles you want to use. The teams are playing in opposite directions after all
It's time to question Effenberg's contribution to midfield here. Throughout his career he has played with a workhorse and a more defensively minded player such as Jens Jeremies, Owen Hargreaves, Matthias Sammer, Giovanni Tedesco, Iachini, Thomas Strunz, Jan Wouters. He has never been expected to do the majority of the grunt work as will be required here. Not only is he the weakest midfielder on the park, he is also the most overloaded having to keep tabs on Zico and Iniesta dropping into his area. Sure Souness will have a tough task quelling Cruyff - but Effenberg is going to seriously struggle without the right support around him and the rarefied calibre of opposition he has to deal with.
Again I'm not criticising Effenberg's calibre - he was a fine midfielder in his day. But this day he faces some exceptional quality and he has relatively little support and defensive instinct to help him out.
Again I'm not criticising Effenberg's calibre - he was a fine midfielder in his day. But this day he faces some exceptional quality and he has relatively little support and defensive instinct to help him out.
Nah, mate. Gio claims that Andrade shut a player that is playing inside left(this is by all means left center half or central position whatever you call it). The opposite of that is right inside, not outside. So by his own quotes he operated central in those games. If the player in question he shut was outside left, that the wing back role he's claiming to have.Think you're a bit confused now mate. The left winger always faces the rightback or whatever variations of these roles you want to use. The teams are playing in opposite directions after all
So are we done with the Andrade position
By all means and quotes during those games he is in inside right position and here you are using him outside right.
The WC games according to all sources he has declined physically and was considered off his peak. From what I read he was anonymous till the 1924 olympics - so that's 24 years old, then he moved in a more advanced position that he contributed in both ends and after that in that game in 1930 he's used outside right when he's off his peak.
From what I read of him he seems to be at his best as Bozsik/Souness partner rather than putting him at full back.
Also you have Finney in front who is traditional winger from the middle of last century, how does an attacking wing back and a right winger work in the same formation? Shouldn't their roles clash at some time?
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That's not Andrade's position that Anto stated there. That was the position of the opposing players he faced. If he's faced inside forwards and shut them down, that tells me that he can do the job of a full back for sure, particularly given his athleticism and defensive nous. Against Giggs, however, he'll be dealing not only with his movement, but his dribbling, speed, and trickery on the ball. Giggs was quite tricky to deal with even from a standing start, so it won't be easy for Andrade to fare against him, especially since Giggs at his peak was tough to read and manipulate.
Overall, I can see what Gio's trying to go for, but I'm not sure how well it can really work out. Bozsik and Souness isn't enough against the opposing midfield. Iniesta won't track back, and he won't do well enough in his pressing approach by himself let alone really offer something defensively. Bozsik, whilst he is a decent tackler and good positionally, doesn't have the work rate to keep Gio's midfield defensively solid enough, particularly with the opposing midfield having more energy, movement, and graft in them overall. Souness himself will struggle to do that much running in what is essentially a 2-man midfield setup against such a fluid, energetic midfield.
On the attack, Gio's lopsided approach could work if they could show that they can dominate possession and push the opposing team all the way back, but that team isn't facing a bunch of mugs. Still, though, there is potential there given that Bozsik and Souness are very good on the ball, particularly Bozsik, who's excellent at retaining possession under pressure. Effenberg won't simply be able to give Bozsik a tough time with his aggression, and if Cruyff tries to double-team him, then Souness gets the space to play some dangerous passes. Zico himself is also quite mobile and will give Gerson and Effenberg a tough time, particularly Effenberg, who's more aggressive and tries to win the ball quicker without caring about the spaces he opens up.
I don't think Gerson and Effenberg are a good partnership as Effenberg isn't that defensively astute, just aggressive and able to cover a lot of the pitch with his running. He's like Vieira in that sense in that both weren't really positionally astute and not aware of the spaces that were open around them, just aggressive, strong on the tackle, and effective ball winners. Compare Effenberg to Gerson's midfield partner in the 1970 World Cup, who was more disciplined and considerate about the dangerous spaces around him. In this case, Gio's approach can really test Enigma/MJJ's team as Iniesta and Zico's movement combined with Bozsik and Souness' ability on the ball + their vision will allow his team to dominate the midfield.
On top of that, Amoros will have to be concerned about Iniesta. Gerson can't worry about Iniesta whilst there's Zico around too. Given this, Facchetti has the perfect platform to play his game, and I don't see Figo playing like a wing back for much of the match, following Facchetti all the way back. Also, the Amoros-Figo argument is void unless @Enigma_87 / @MJJ can show that their team can get control of the match.
For me, I do think that Gio's team has the midfield advantage and, thus, the control over the match. In such a match, Zico and Iniesta will be very dangerous, and those two will make Greaves and Finney more effective. The scoreline will be something like 2-1 to Gio in this match.
Oh, then I missunderstood. Yeah, the inside forwards were usually central-ish wide players with a true winger outside of them. I don't really see a problem with that in regards to how Andrade's skillset would translate to the modern game though. Defending against a free roaming inside left back then isn't too different to defending against many modern wingers like Bale, Robben, Neymar. Add his ability on the ball to it and Gio's description of Andrade's role in his team makes a lot of sense.
Well I don't believe that you can be equally best at couple of positions. Every position has a different set of mentality, different qualities. Sure, every quality player can cover and do pretty good job but that doesn't mean he's at his best at that position, especially since one is central and the other one is wide.
Andrade's career is interesting one, but we can't just assume that he'll have the best game at the position Gio has put him. And since that is an aggressive wing back, how that works with out and out winger while on the other side he has only Facchetti on his own. It's a bit strange for me as a setup.
Also having accomplishments that Andrade achieved during the World cup and basing your argument on that while most reputable sources claim he was off his peak by then is misleading at least..
There is nothing misleading about it. It's worthwhile citing his World Cup 1930 performances since they were deemed good enough to see him ranked 10th of all the World Cup performers between 1930 and 1990 by France Football. That's some accolade and it's worth referencing. The equivalent would be citing Zidane's cock-out performances in 2006 and then you claiming that's misleading because his actual peak was 5-6 years earlier. A non-issue and a distraction tactic frankly.
That's the whole point regarding Andrade's debacle. He's not given a man marking role here but played as offensive wing back of sorts.
Agree on all your accounts. I also have issue with Souness handling Cruyff on his own. Cruyff was always followed by at least 2 opposing players, if you are leaving him one to one usually it's him who will beat his marker create advantage and at full speed with face towards the goal he can finish on his own like he has done most of the time.
I think our midfield is fine in the sense that we have players like Effenberg and Gerson who are positionaly excellent. Bozsik/Souness is not the most mobile midfield either I think they will cancel each other out. I'm not buying the pressing Iniesta would do or tracking back in this set up as well.
If Iniesta is in control naturally Figo or Amoros can cover there is no problem in tucking in when off the ball. Both Amoros and Figo have the speed if we are in possession to kill it on a counter.
Zico won't be able to help out defensively and he's not as mobile and free roaming as Cruyff.
Figo doesn't have to play as a wing back, he can however cover if we're off the ball, Figo's stamina is well known and when he's up for it he can put a shift in.
I don't see Greaves passing through our defence I just don't. Baresi shut Romario/Bebeto for 120 mins and at his peak he's the best defender about. And as Gio said he won't cross the ball so that makes Finney role a bit of a question mark.
the guy has different attributes in 1930 and a different game, and as we both agreed on he was off his peak, how is that relevant to what he was during his peak?
Also since you have no intention of crossing the ball and Finney is a traditional winger what does he suppose to do?