Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - E/S/P vs harms
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Come on! The only player who you may not be familiar be with is Pirri, and it a easy Google away from me selling it it you.
harms has a great attackn no question, but I do have have an equally fantastic defence. The edge being I have a better offence in Baggio/Kopa against his defence in Rio/Vierchowood, but that's something I leave you to decide. harms may blame Vidic for all weakness, bit I still think rio had an understanding with Vidic that is not reproducable with Vierchowood.
Eto'o being a peer in this regard and not a weaker player is to my advantage,
Pirri, kola, hanegem, ressenbrink, bossis I've barely heard of. Then there's atleast 3-4 who I know but not well enough to have an informed opinion. I'm just 27 man
and I don't want to affect a draft when I'm not in a position to make an informed call. I know the effort you guys put into these because I follow every draft right from the drafting to the matches but never vote 
Can't forget to shine a spotlight here, or @diarm would be after us.
Baggio is considered one of the best players of his generation, and one of Italy's greatest players; he is regarded by many as the best Italian player of all time. Italian journalist Gianni Brera, who had observed both Giuseppe Meazza and Gianni Rivera, stated that Baggio was the best Italian player he had ever seen. A world class playmaker with an eye for goal, he was renowned for his vision, creativity, and passing ability, but usually played as a second forward throughout his career, as he was known for scoring goals as well as creating them. This led Michel Platini to describe him as a "9 and a half", as he was not a true number 9 striker, due to his creative ability, but he scored more than a number 10 playmaker. He also stated that Baggio's playing style coincided with the re-emergence of the attacking midfielder in Italy during the early 2000s. While at Juventus, Gianni Agnelli referred to Baggio as an artist, comparing his elegance to the painter Raffaello, whilst he described the emerging talent Alessandro Del Piero as his student Pinturicchio.
Baggio was tactically versatile, and was comfortable attacking on both wings or through the centre; this allowed him to play anywhere along the front-line. His preferred position was in a free-role, as a creative, attacking midfield playmaker, although he was rarely deployed in this position throughout his career due to the prevalence of the 4-4-2 formation; it was only in later years that he was able to play in this role more frequently. A prolific goalscorer, Baggio was also a set piece specialist, renowned for his accurate bending shots and Free kicks. His free kick technique influenced several other players, such as Andrea Pirlo. Despite his miss in the 1994 World Cup Final shootout, Baggio was also a penalty kick specialist.
Although naturally right footed, Baggio was comfortable using both feet, and often began dribbling with his left foot. Not particularly imposing physically, or in the air, he was known for his pace and acceleration over short distances, which, along with his agility, quick feet, and technical ability, allowed him to lose his markers. Regarded as one of the greatest dribblers of all time, Baggio was renowned for his skilful dribbling, ball control, balance, and his ability to beat opponents with flair, body feints, and sudden changes of pace or direction, both in one on one situations, or during individual dribbling runs.
Carlo Mazzone said:
Baggio is considered one of the best players of his generation, and one of Italy's greatest players; he is regarded by many as the best Italian player of all time. Italian journalist Gianni Brera, who had observed both Giuseppe Meazza and Gianni Rivera, stated that Baggio was the best Italian player he had ever seen. A world class playmaker with an eye for goal, he was renowned for his vision, creativity, and passing ability, but usually played as a second forward throughout his career, as he was known for scoring goals as well as creating them. This led Michel Platini to describe him as a "9 and a half", as he was not a true number 9 striker, due to his creative ability, but he scored more than a number 10 playmaker. He also stated that Baggio's playing style coincided with the re-emergence of the attacking midfielder in Italy during the early 2000s. While at Juventus, Gianni Agnelli referred to Baggio as an artist, comparing his elegance to the painter Raffaello, whilst he described the emerging talent Alessandro Del Piero as his student Pinturicchio.
Brian Laudrup said:
Baggio was tactically versatile, and was comfortable attacking on both wings or through the centre; this allowed him to play anywhere along the front-line. His preferred position was in a free-role, as a creative, attacking midfield playmaker, although he was rarely deployed in this position throughout his career due to the prevalence of the 4-4-2 formation; it was only in later years that he was able to play in this role more frequently. A prolific goalscorer, Baggio was also a set piece specialist, renowned for his accurate bending shots and Free kicks. His free kick technique influenced several other players, such as Andrea Pirlo. Despite his miss in the 1994 World Cup Final shootout, Baggio was also a penalty kick specialist.
Although naturally right footed, Baggio was comfortable using both feet, and often began dribbling with his left foot. Not particularly imposing physically, or in the air, he was known for his pace and acceleration over short distances, which, along with his agility, quick feet, and technical ability, allowed him to lose his markers. Regarded as one of the greatest dribblers of all time, Baggio was renowned for his skilful dribbling, ball control, balance, and his ability to beat opponents with flair, body feints, and sudden changes of pace or direction, both in one on one situations, or during individual dribbling runs.
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Alright, it's been a while since I contributed again, so here it goes.
I really like how both teams are set up, overall. harms' defence, personnel-wise, is amazing. Vierchowod-Ferdinand isn't getting enough recognition. One of the best stoppers ever partnered with one of England's best ever sweepers. Wherever Vierchowod went, he tasted success. That isn't just mere coincidence; he was a key component to both club and country. Ferdinand was ever-present for us during our successful period from 2006-13, showing composure and an excellent read of various situations. Full backs Bossis and Lahm are also complete full backs, possessing excellent positional sense and great technique going forward.
In a high line, however, it's not the most optimal setup, but it can work. Ferdinand and Vierchowod both played in deeper defensive lines for much of their careers, and whilst Ferdinand did have pace and a good reading of the game, he normally struggled to hold a higher line against quality attacking teams, preferring to drop back whenever the opposition got the ball. In this sort of a team, he'll have to hold the high line and trust his midfield to close down the avenues, and I don't know if his approach to defending suits that, but I guess it can work since his qualities do suit this approach even if he's never played in it. With Vierchowod, it's something similar; he often played in teams that had a deep defensive line, but again, he has the potential to play in a higher line due to his aggression and excellent reading of situations. Lahm normally struggles against very quick players, and whilst Baggio is amazing technically and nimble on the ball, I don't really think he's quick enough to cause Lahm too many problems. Having said that, Baggio's in pretty much a free role here, so that will cause Lahm some issues here over whether to follow him or not, particularly in a high line.
The only other issue I see with harms' team is Netzer not doing much defensively in a high-pressing, high-line team. In such a setup, every midfielder had to play a role in the pressing and closing down of options, spaces, and players. Netzer not doing this is going to be suicidal for harms with Rijkaard, van Hanegem, and Pirri all great on the ball and with their passing.
If harms can get on the ball, though, I can see him scoring for sure. Pele in a free attacking role suits him well, particularly with complete forwards like Kalle and Rensenbrink, and with another direct player in Netzer, harms' wide forwards will have lots of joy. This is definitely a high-scoring match for me. For all of the class E/S/P have in their defence, that front 3, with their movement, intelligence, complete set of skills, and speed will cause them problems. Netzer and Falcao will really keep van Hanegem and Pirri guessing with their movement and variety in their passing and tempo, with Rijkaard having to worry about Pele's vertical movements as well as what Netzer and Falcao will do. Busquets is quite assured in possession and accurate in his passing, and he has a great awareness of what's around him, so on the ball, harms has no issues scoring goals. Off the ball, his team's quite open, particularly with Netzer in midfield, and thus, with the team E/S/P has, they will surely score goals as well.
For me, this game's a guaranteed 3-3, maybe a 4-3 to E/S/P just because they have a stronger defensive setup, particularly with two energetic midfielders in van Hanegem and Pirri. I won't vote yet until @harms addresses how he deals with the weaknesses in his setup.
I really like how both teams are set up, overall. harms' defence, personnel-wise, is amazing. Vierchowod-Ferdinand isn't getting enough recognition. One of the best stoppers ever partnered with one of England's best ever sweepers. Wherever Vierchowod went, he tasted success. That isn't just mere coincidence; he was a key component to both club and country. Ferdinand was ever-present for us during our successful period from 2006-13, showing composure and an excellent read of various situations. Full backs Bossis and Lahm are also complete full backs, possessing excellent positional sense and great technique going forward.
In a high line, however, it's not the most optimal setup, but it can work. Ferdinand and Vierchowod both played in deeper defensive lines for much of their careers, and whilst Ferdinand did have pace and a good reading of the game, he normally struggled to hold a higher line against quality attacking teams, preferring to drop back whenever the opposition got the ball. In this sort of a team, he'll have to hold the high line and trust his midfield to close down the avenues, and I don't know if his approach to defending suits that, but I guess it can work since his qualities do suit this approach even if he's never played in it. With Vierchowod, it's something similar; he often played in teams that had a deep defensive line, but again, he has the potential to play in a higher line due to his aggression and excellent reading of situations. Lahm normally struggles against very quick players, and whilst Baggio is amazing technically and nimble on the ball, I don't really think he's quick enough to cause Lahm too many problems. Having said that, Baggio's in pretty much a free role here, so that will cause Lahm some issues here over whether to follow him or not, particularly in a high line.
The only other issue I see with harms' team is Netzer not doing much defensively in a high-pressing, high-line team. In such a setup, every midfielder had to play a role in the pressing and closing down of options, spaces, and players. Netzer not doing this is going to be suicidal for harms with Rijkaard, van Hanegem, and Pirri all great on the ball and with their passing.
If harms can get on the ball, though, I can see him scoring for sure. Pele in a free attacking role suits him well, particularly with complete forwards like Kalle and Rensenbrink, and with another direct player in Netzer, harms' wide forwards will have lots of joy. This is definitely a high-scoring match for me. For all of the class E/S/P have in their defence, that front 3, with their movement, intelligence, complete set of skills, and speed will cause them problems. Netzer and Falcao will really keep van Hanegem and Pirri guessing with their movement and variety in their passing and tempo, with Rijkaard having to worry about Pele's vertical movements as well as what Netzer and Falcao will do. Busquets is quite assured in possession and accurate in his passing, and he has a great awareness of what's around him, so on the ball, harms has no issues scoring goals. Off the ball, his team's quite open, particularly with Netzer in midfield, and thus, with the team E/S/P has, they will surely score goals as well.
For me, this game's a guaranteed 3-3, maybe a 4-3 to E/S/P just because they have a stronger defensive setup, particularly with two energetic midfielders in van Hanegem and Pirri. I won't vote yet until @harms addresses how he deals with the weaknesses in his setup.
You are overthinking the impact of discussion on voting anyway. For scan voters, only the formation matters. Only draft voting regulars look at the discussion inside the thread.
Looks like I just broke the deadlock.And I can't forget the draft connoisseurs, some of which have already engaged in the debate, but neglected to vote so far
@Gio @Aldo @Chesterlestreet @Joga Bonito @Theon @Annahnomoss
I'll be home in a while lads and will vote then. I'm leaning one way from the teams but want to read the discussion before pulling the trigger.
Still 12-12
Great match this. Very little between the two sides and some great discussion all round.
In Pele and Falcao, harms has the best attacker and best midfielder on the field. That said, I prefer Edgar's midfield over all and I love Baggio/Kopa as they are here. EAP clearly has the better defence and keeper which I think will give him a narrow win here.
Great game from all concerned though!
In Pele and Falcao, harms has the best attacker and best midfielder on the field. That said, I prefer Edgar's midfield over all and I love Baggio/Kopa as they are here. EAP clearly has the better defence and keeper which I think will give him a narrow win here.
Great game from all concerned though!
Bump
Rijkaard is having monstrous game dealing with Pele and Netzer? No way
Rijkaard is having monstrous game dealing with Pele and Netzer? No way
Not sure at all what you're getting at here.
Surely Figueroa and McGrath are relevant when defending against Pele.
And given you have Netzer in that right CM position you would presumably expect Van Hanegem to have a role against him when Netzer is on the ball.
Tied again
As expected it this will go right down to the wire.
Nah ,we've been trailing on GD all through.
Nah ,we've been trailing on GD all through.
Which is still beyond me how we'd be shipping so many goals!
@Brwned make a return to these draft threads, and help break this tie please
30 minutes or so left for someone to decide this outright.
30 minutes or so left for someone to decide this outright.
@coolredwine @Berbaclass @The Law of Denis @Fortitude @NinjaFletch
Don't let this be decided on goal difference please, kthanks
We're coming up to stoppage time
Don't let this be decided on goal difference please, kthanks
We're coming up to stoppage time
Not that I'd like it to be decided on GD but that's a far better way to do it than penos, in my opinion of course.@coolredwine @Berbaclass @The Law of Denis @Fortitude @NinjaFletch
Don't let this be decided on goal difference please, kthanks
We're coming up to stoppage time
One great thing about this scoring system and why it should be retained, despite being an eyesore.
@Theon @Balu
Pros and cons to both, not sure which I prefer yet. Penos, while boring, and kind of a cop out for some people in regards to "voting for ties" at least leave it in a managers hands.
This way you can get screwed by a random vote going one way (a 3 goal loss by one voter while everyone else sees it close, for example)
Nothing is perfect though
You can't call it an outlier or a random vote just because it was against you, it is as much a vote as the rest of them including the ones that gave you the win.Pros and cons to both, not sure which I prefer yet. Penos, while boring, and kind of a cop out for some people in regards to "voting for ties" at least leave it in a managers hands.
This way you can get screwed by a random vote going one way (a 3 goal loss by one voter while everyone else sees it close, for example)
Nothing is perfect though
If you want complete justification of votes, get rid of the poll and have people vote by posting. Once you add a public poll, you need accept each vote equally.
Ah well brwned broke the tie.
Against or for, I'd feel the same way if there's 1 vote out of 24 that see 3 goals difference between either team.
But that is a voter's opinion and it counts exactly the same as all others, even if you completely disagree with it. At least now you can see who voted against the norm, and talk about it. So it is adding way more information than before anyway.
harms is leading 15-14
It doesn't exactly count the same as others when that's the vote that is now potentially deciding a game, though. 29 people could vote 1-0 both ways, but one vote at 3-0 skews it completely out. I understand what you're saying, and like I said, there's pros and cons to every system and nothing is perfect
Good game @harms
Few tweaks in there and you can add to your stellar attack. Hopefully you still have it in you to discuss your boys for at least another round
Few tweaks in there and you can add to your stellar attack. Hopefully you still have it in you to discuss your boys for at least another round
Great game @harms Your attack is really unstoppable! With reinforcements on the way, you'd be my favourite to win this. All the best for future rounds!
That's true, but trust me man, in close games such as this one 'random' vote can break the tie. Or take it to a tie when you are leading. That would be equally hard to take and all you can see is a random username whose never commented or anything. Has happened to me before and that sucks equally, at the end of the day if the match is this close no matter what the system you'll be prone to 'random' people affecting it. Only if you remove it from public domain and only allow selected people to vote can you eliminate that but again that is elitist and I wouldn't support that.It doesn't exactly count the same as others when that's the vote that is now potentially deciding a game, though. 29 people could vote 1-0 both ways, but one vote at 3-0 skews it completely out. I understand what you're saying, and like I said, there's pros and cons to every system and nothing is perfect
And thanks @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard I've been experimenting with the X-mas tree for a couple of drafts unsuccessfully and you've finally made that happen here. Great teaming up with you both!
I wonder if you lot had gotten Kocsis in there instead of Etoo, would that have swung it. I understood your rationale for getting Etoo but think many would have seen the Hungarian as more difficult to deal for Rio and company.
I agree with you overall, and I know it probably sounds like sour grapes
i just wouldn't want to lose a game on GD if it was otherwise tied on number of votes, especially when all other votes have it 1 goal either way. Maybe that's just me though. I don't have a "better suggestion" and think this way probably gives a slightly more accurate view of a match overall since people see it as a 1 or 2 goal game etc. and I certainly don't mean to sound like someone's vote should be ignored purely because they do see it completely differently. Maybe requiring an explanation with each vote is an option, but then you run the risk of excluding people who don't have time to post, or just post something like "have Messi, so he'd win". Anyway, plenty of good players up for grabs now. We'll see what monster teams are in the QFs
Glad to help
thanks for having us on board. Shame we couldn't take that a little farther, because I think it turned out quite well indeed.Yeah it was discussed at length for a while, whether someone big and physical would be a better foil, but then the criticism would have included saying that a "big guy" wouldn't link very well with the other attackers, as is standard draft fare. Swings and roundabouts. Guess we'll never know
Good game @harms
Few tweaks in there and you can add to your stellar attack. Hopefully you still have it in you to discuss your boys for at least another round
Thanks, guys! Good game. I was surprised that no one here loves Bisquit
Hopefully I'll take one or two players from your team going forward Thanks, guys! Good game. I was surprised that no one here loves Bisquit
Get Rijkaard into that midfield and suddenly your whole front 6 looks a hell of a lot more imposing. Even more so than a team with Pele, Rummenigge, Falcao and Netzer already does
Poll closed 40 minutes ago.@coolredwine @Berbaclass @The Law of Denis @Fortitude @NinjaFletch
Don't let this be decided on goal difference please, kthanks
We're coming up to stoppage time