Best worst manager of all time?

Fortitude

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Think he's the best worst manager of all time.
@SilentWitness struck gold, but didn’t follow up on it due to his benevolence, so here I am to carry out his work and bestow his vision to the people.

The above quote is about Southgate, who now has the most incredulous NT managerial career imaginable and is, per fact, England’s 2nd greatest manager of all time despite being rubbish at too many things to list and being a Championship-level manager in the real world.

A worthy candidate for best worst manager of all time, but can you top trump him? Can you think of a worse best worst manager? :confused:
 
Ole kind of fits this criteria, or would do if he’d won stuff managing United (given his weak managerial pedigree)
 
Avram Grant got Chelsea into their first ever CL final, something that the great Mourinho failed to accomplish in three attempts in his first stint.
Not only that, he also took Chelsea to second in the league, within 2 pts of the greatest Manchester United side of all time with ballon d’or winner Cristiano.

I’d say he is up there.
 
Frank de Boer
Ole Gunnar Solksjaer

Honorable mentions.
 
Not really a bad manager but it's amusing that Vicente del Bosque didn't really do much of note until they gave him the Real Madrid job, where he won CL and league titles. After that, he did nothing of note for years until he was given the Spanish NT job, where he won the World Cup and Euros.
 
Not really a bad manager but it's amusing that Vicente del Bosque didn't really do much of note until they gave him the Real Madrid job, where he won CL and league titles. After that, he did nothing of note for years until he was given the Spanish NT job, where he won the World Cup and Euros.

To be fair, you could have had a corpse in the dugout and Spain would still have won the World Cup and the Euros. What a side they were.
 
FA Cup and Champions League double winning manager Roberto Di Matteo. Apart from the Chelsea stint, the rest of his managerial career were MK Dons, WBA, Schalke and some Korean club. Just not the resume you expect of a CL Fa Cup double winner.
 
FA Cup and Champions League double winning manager Roberto Di Matteo. Apart from the Chelsea stint, the rest of his managerial career were MK Dons, WBA, Schalke and some Korean club. Just not the resume you expect of a CL Fa Cup double winner.
Yes that’s a good one. Probably tops Southgate unless he wins the final
 
Definitely Zidane. I would've won those CL's too with thay team. Go show us in a real job (haha real).
 
FA Cup and Champions League double winning manager Roberto Di Matteo. Apart from the Chelsea stint, the rest of his managerial career were MK Dons, WBA, Schalke and some Korean club. Just not the resume you expect of a CL Fa Cup double winner.
Yeah he’s who I thought of as well.
 
Yeah I think Southgate as a tenure has it wrapped up. It's quite amazing how much he has lucked out consistently and never been in any danger of losing his job...but actually rewarded for it!
 
Raymond Domenech was a penalty shoot out away from becoming a World Cup winning manager. Zidane inspired (given they were struggling to qualify when he returned) and after his final retirement their performances at Euro 2008 and 2010 were more evident of how things were run then with the added player mutiny.

It wasn't an amazing generation but you still had guys like Evra and Nasri in great form in their club careers and Benzema had just moved to Real Madrid.
 
Roberto Martinez

How he's got the jobs he has at international level I'll never know.
 
Yeah I think Southgate as a tenure has it wrapped up. It's quite amazing how much he has lucked out consistently and never been in any danger of losing his job...but actually rewarded for it!

I mean… his record is incredible. I don’t rate him that much as a coach. But he Ole’d the shit out of England.

He’s clearly a pretty great National team manager. He took a team that was scared of the shirt, made it feel lighter, made squads something players look forward to joining, changed the media narrative, and has got some brilliant tournament runs.

He shouldn’t be on this list. He’s a wonderful international manager. His greatest failing is not bringing a top level coach on board to drill the team. I’d keep him on for another two tournaments if he had a coaching staff that could imprint a playing style on the squad.

He does everything he’s good at with aplomb. He just happens to be woeful at the things he’s not good at.
 
I mean… his record is incredible. I don’t rate him that much as a coach. But he Ole’d the shit out of England.

He’s clearly a pretty great National team manager. He took a team that was scared of the shirt, made it feel lighter, made squads something players look forward to joining, changed the media narrative, and has got some brilliant tournament runs.

He shouldn’t be on this list. He’s a wonderful international manager. His greatest failing is not bringing a top level coach on board to drill the team. I’d keep him on for another two tournaments if he had a coaching staff that could imprint a playing style on the squad.

He does everything he’s good at with aplomb. He just happens to be woeful at the things he’s not good at.

For the majority of this tournament he's been carried by having enough individual quality in the side rather than actually being a good manager.
 
I mean… his record is incredible. I don’t rate him that much as a coach. But he Ole’d the shit out of England.

He’s clearly a pretty great National team manager. He took a team that was scared of the shirt, made it feel lighter, made squads something players look forward to joining, changed the media narrative, and has got some brilliant tournament runs.

He shouldn’t be on this list. He’s a wonderful international manager. His greatest failing is not bringing a top level coach on board to drill the team. I’d keep him on for another two tournaments if he had a coaching staff that could imprint a playing style on the squad.

He does everything he’s good at with aplomb. He just happens to be woeful at the things he’s not good at.


Yep, England in my opinion have pretty always have a strong squad on paper, so in that regard, whatever he is doing is definitely working. Statistically and results wise his time in charge has been an outrageous success relative to others.
 
For the majority of this tournament he's been carried by having enough individual quality in the side rather than actually being a good manager.

All true. But the job he’s done with England in terms of changing the player attitudes, performances and media narrative shouldn’t go without praise. He’s been wonderful for England.

He’s just an average coach. Better coaches would do better, no question. But the likes of Capello and Eriksen were far better coaches but didn’t understand anything else, and got worse results.
 
For the majority of this tournament he's been carried by having enough individual quality in the side rather than actually being a good manager.

Keeping an England team blessed with talent clocking up results has been beyond lots of 'great' managers. He deserves credit, but I'm not sure what for exactly.
 
All true. But the job he’s done with England in terms of changing the player attitudes, performances and media narrative shouldn’t go without praise. He’s been wonderful for England.

He’s just an average coach. Better coaches would do better, no question. But the likes of Capello and Eriksen were far better coaches but didn’t understand anything else, and got worse results.
Keeping an England team blessed with talent clocking up results has been beyond lots of 'great' managers. He deserves credit, but I'm not sure what for exactly.

I don't disagree. I've said before that his quality amongst all other England managers has been how he's transformed the relationship between England and the fans/media and the squad unity. He deserves huge credit for that, but as a coach he's dire.
 
I don't disagree. I've said before that his quality amongst all other England managers has been how he's transformed the relationship between England and the fans/media and the squad unity. He deserves huge credit for that, but as a coach he's dire.


Yep. Funny old world.
 
Definitely Zidane. I would've won those CL's too with thay team. Go show us in a real job (haha real).
I think he kinda transcends to the worst best manager for me. There’s a thin line between the two though.

As in Zidane was never bad… he just never seemed to have that additional brilliance that someone like Carlo brings into the team. He did everything (perhaps slightly boringly and mechanically) right, he had a fantastic squad and all the stars had aligned for him.

While someone like Southgate actively cripples a great team that wins in spite of him… to be fair he was better in previous tournaments (yet still long way from great), but this Euros is the absolute worst that we’ve seen from him so far (with the best squad that he’s ever had).
 
I think he kinda transcends to the worst best manager for me. There’s a thin line between the two though.

As in Zidane was never bad… he just never seemed to have that additional brilliance that someone like Carlo brings into the team. He did everything (perhaps slightly boringly and mechanically) right, he had a fantastic squad and all the stars had aligned for him.

While someone like Southgate actively cripples a great team that wins in spite of him… to be fair he was better in previous tournaments (yet still long way from great), but this Euros is the absolute worst that we’ve seen from him so far (with the best squad that he’s ever had).
I imagine Zidane is able to have the respect of the dressing room just by being Zidane, but he's no tactical genius from what I've seen.

As for Southgate, I was just completely baffled by how he set you up for the second half after completely playing us off the field from the 10th until the 45th minute. You deserved to win, but that's more down to the difference in squad strength.
 
This will be an unpopular one, but the Tinkerman, Ranieri. 22 jobs and a vast and varied career, but very little in terms of top honors.

Possibly achieved the single greatest moment in PL history, but as a manager? The rest of his career is extremely underwhelming.
 
In a less silly reality, England draw a better side than Colombia in the first knockout round having struggled to second place in a group with Belgium, Tunisia and Panama at his first major tournament. They don’t scrape through on penalties and none of these ridiculous conversations ever happen because his tenure lasts about as long it naturally should have.
 
In a less silly reality, England draw a better side than Colombia in the first knockout round having struggled to second place in a group with Belgium, Tunisia and Panama at his first major tournament. They don’t scrape through on penalties and none of these ridiculous conversations ever happen because his tenure lasts about as long it naturally should have.
I think it would have, because the FA are completely at sea with ideas on where we go next if Southgate doesn't work. Southgate will have to resign for them to change managers. This is an institution that thought Sam Allardyce was a good idea. If Big Sam hadn't been knocking back too many pints of red wine to realize he was being set up, he'd probably still be here too.
 
This will be an unpopular one, but the Tinkerman, Ranieri. 22 jobs and a vast and varied career, but very little in terms of top honors.

Possibly achieved the single greatest moment in PL history, but as a manager? The rest of his career is extremely underwhelming.

Yeah that’s a mad shout. He’s in the top 20% of coaches of his generation.
 
People who list Ole know much less about football than they think. Clueless take
 
Yeah that’s a mad shout. He’s in the top 20% of coaches of his generation.

I don’t think he is anywhere near this.

Remove the year from Leicester and look at his career from the 80’s until this year. What puts him in the top 20%?

His only other top flight honor in a near 40 year career is one Copa del Rey and one Italian Cup. He was underwhelming in most jobs, despite being extremely likeable.
 
I don’t think he is anywhere near this.

Remove the year from Leicester and look at his career from the 80’s until this year. What puts him in the top 20%?

His only other top flight honor in a near 40 year career is one Copa del Rey and one Italian Cup. He was underwhelming in most jobs, despite being extremely likeable.
But he's taken loads of teams that shouldn't have been good to far beyond what anyone would expected them to? Leicester being the absolute pinnacle, but his work with Cagliari, Fiorentina and Monaco was good.
 
FA Cup and Champions League double winning manager Roberto Di Matteo. Apart from the Chelsea stint, the rest of his managerial career were MK Dons, WBA, Schalke and some Korean club. Just not the resume you expect of a CL Fa Cup double winner.
Was my first thought too
 
But he's taken loads of teams that shouldn't have been good to far beyond what anyone would expected them to? Leicester being the absolute pinnacle, but his work with Cagliari, Fiorentina and Monaco was good.

Fiorentina and Monaco were promotions with teams that were too strong for that division. I don’t think he has taken any other teams beyond their talents, bar Leicester.

His Fiorentina and Valencia teams had ridiculous quality. He rode the wave of doing ok with two top teams for a very, very long time.
 
I don’t think he is anywhere near this.

Remove the year from Leicester and look at his career from the 80’s until this year. What puts him in the top 20%?

His only other top flight honor in a near 40 year career is one Copa del Rey and one Italian Cup. He was underwhelming in most jobs, despite being extremely likeable.

That puts him above 90% of managers tbf
 
Fiorentina and Monaco were promotions with teams that were too strong for that division. I don’t think he has taken any other teams beyond their talents, bar Leicester.

His Fiorentina and Valencia teams had ridiculous quality. He rode the wave of doing ok with two top teams for a very, very long time.
Hey, they were down there in the first place. Hard to lay that at his feet. It is a pattern with him and promoting Cagliari twice at the start and end of his career is testament to him obviously being a manager who knows what he's doing.

I get he's probably overrated a bit from the emotional aspect, but certainly not the best worst manager by a long shot.
 
Different teams, contexts, expectations, resources... require different skillsets from the manager. I don't think there has ever existed a manager who would be perfectly suitable to every job. Managers who don't come with a dogmatic way of playing and whose personality is not that of a protagonists alpha tend to be better suited for top quality squads where man management and fostering a conflict free environment where big name players are allowed the freedom to flourish are the key attributes. This dynamic is more often than not suited to knockout football where the team needs to perform in one off games and find ways of winning. Real Madrid are a classic example of that, they succeed mostly with the Zidane and Ancelotti types. The same names might not perform as well if put in an enviornment where they have to build a style of playing and be the main man among relatively inexperienced players at a club that doesn't necessarily have a strong winning culture.

International teams do fall in that category most of the time, hence the success of the likes of Aimé Jaquet, Vicente del Bosque or Joachim Low. These managers had at their disposal players who already know how to play but needed to be more managed than necessarily coached. I think Southgate falls into that category which is why I find the criticism of him unfair. He is the victim of the modern trend and rise of dogmatic managers which is a relatively new thing in the Premier League. English fans are looking at Pep, Klopp and Arteta and measuring him against that type. He is not that and will never be, but more importantly, he doesn't really need to be. In that sense, he really is as good a fit as you can find for the England team whereas someone else might be a better coach, a skillset which might not have as high potential of actually making a difference in the tournament environment, but lacking in what Southgate has, a deep understanding of English football culture and the mentality of the English player and how to treat them.
 
Hey, they were down there in the first place. Hard to lay that at his feet. It is a pattern with him and promoting Cagliari twice at the start and end of his career is testament to him obviously being a manager who knows what he's doing.

I get he's probably overrated a bit from the emotional aspect, but certainly not the best worst manager by a long shot.

By best worst, I mean it as the worst manager in relation to his reputation. I wouldn’t have ever wanted him at United, for example, at any point in his career, but one year at Leicester, I feel, has given him a much elevated reputation.

I think football has been very generous to him.
 
I mean… his record is incredible. I don’t rate him that much as a coach. But he Ole’d the shit out of England.

He’s clearly a pretty great National team manager. He took a team that was scared of the shirt, made it feel lighter, made squads something players look forward to joining, changed the media narrative, and has got some brilliant tournament runs.

He shouldn’t be on this list. He’s a wonderful international manager. His greatest failing is not bringing a top level coach on board to drill the team. I’d keep him on for another two tournaments if he had a coaching staff that could imprint a playing style on the squad.

He does everything he’s good at with aplomb. He just happens to be woeful at the things he’s not good at.
Mh, no. His greatest failing is an inability to deviate from plan A. He was very good at drilling the team in it in the previous tournaments. The reason he's been bad at this Euros is Plan A has not been working

Otherwise agree with your post
 
I don’t think he is anywhere near this.

Remove the year from Leicester and look at his career from the 80’s until this year. What puts him in the top 20%?

His only other top flight honor in a near 40 year career is one Copa del Rey and one Italian Cup. He was underwhelming in most jobs, despite being extremely likeable.

He's easily that, I'm thinking you're forgetting how many coaches are out there.

I know this is only one country, but here's the full list of PL coaches - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Premier_League_managers

Add in similar list from Spain and Italy, and what he did in those countries is better than 80% of coaches there.

The question should be whether or not being in the top 20% makes you too good to be one of the best worst managers or not.