This is a really good point! Personally I prefer a keeper who's between 1.9 and 2.0m - I feel like that's generally the best balance between being able to contest crosses whilst also being able to defend low shots.
Best shot-stopping goalkeepers in Europe
- Thread starter Pagh Wraith
- Start date
This is a really good point! Personally I prefer a keeper who's between 1.9 and 2.0m - I feel like that's generally the best balance between being able to contest crosses whilst also being able to defend low shots.
I am confused. How do you end up with a decimal number in PSxG +/-
Do you have Neuer‘s numbers for the last three seasons? I know he was injured quite a bit but seems to have turned the corner again. Obviously it’s not only about shot-stopping with him.
I was, i follow him for obvious reasons. Ha has been rock solid for Swansea and West Ham.
Because the expected value of the shot going in is a percentage. If you concede a goal that had a chance of 30% of going in, you're at -0.7.
I feel like the giants (196+) age better. Someone like Courtois for instance I expect to last a higher level than the shorter keepers who rely more on reflexes.
Bayern's numbers:
17/18: +3.5 (5th in the league)
18/19: -6.8 (15th in the league)
19/20: +2.4 (3rd in the league)
Caveat here is that these are team-wide goalkeeping stats and Neuer hasn't appeared in every game over this period.
Yeah agreed - I don't think it's crazy to suggest that the taller keepers generally command their areas better and thus avoid shot opportunities for the opposition in the first place.
Definitely on the same page re: Courtois - I reckon he'll age extremely well because the things that make him great are less prone to falling off with time.
Neuer is -5.4 and +1.9 in the last two seasons. He only played three games in 17/18.
Thank you good sir! 18/19 aka the Kovac/Ullreich effect aka „I can’t believe Dortmund wasn’t able to beat that crap team in the league“.
edit:Neuer was injured in 17/18 and not 18/19 i believe......
Conversely if a keeper stops a 30% shot, they get +0.3 or +0.7 ?
The whole point of xG is that it doesn't matter whether a keeper saves it or not - the value is that you compare it to the actual outcome (e.g. goals against) and you can get a sense of whether a player underperformed or not.
Actually you're correct, my mistake! Somehow I thought Neuer was hurt during 16/17 and I was off by a year.
+0.3. You can read it as how many goals a goalkeeper has prevented with his saves compared to an average keeper facing the same shot.
Asenjo had a really unlucky career with injury, always rated him. Mad he only has 1 cap for Spain. To me he's way better than someone like Diego Rico.
His injuries at Atletico Madrid gave De Gea his chance of course.
His injuries at Atletico Madrid gave De Gea his chance of course.
Ginishes?
David De Ginishes finishes! Don’t be picky! :-/
Still no idea what you're talking about
Asenjo was the next big thing at 19/20, always had the talent. As I remember it, De Gea still used those chances to displace him straight out. I was watching quite a bit of La Liga at the time, and remember thinking that De Gea was the most dead on certain goalie talent I ever saw. I was wild with expectation when the United rumours surfaced. He was so rounded in everything he did: calm, technical, always did all the right things, at 19 years of age. And he had the wow saves to boot.
Of course, the havoc of the English aerial battles where a different challenge, not really suited for DDG’s body and technique. But I was pretty certain he’d find a way to adapt. De Gea has been a fantasic goalkeeper to have, and he is still very good. I hvaen’t watched Oblak that closely because my possibility to watch La Liga dropped at a point, but if you watch Henderson vs De Gea for instance, situation by situation in a game, I’m sure most top goalkeepers would recognize that De Gea does so much more things optimally every game with regards to positioning, footwork, timing, decisions - and that saves a lot of the need for saves.
There's a lot more to goalkeeping than stopping shots so these kinds of stats as measurements of a keepers' ability are very misleading. Especially since we can see there are huge fluctuations from season to season..
The best goalkeepers will be great at stopping shots from happening in the first place and being able to play comfortably with the ball at their feet is more important than ever too.
The best goalkeepers will be great at stopping shots from happening in the first place and being able to play comfortably with the ball at their feet is more important than ever too.
I agree with this. Hard to put into words, but when I watch Henderson v De Gea, everything seems rushed and a bit chaotic with Henderson whereas De Gea seems more calm and technical. I'm not downplaying Henderson here, as he's had a better season than De Gea, who has been in really poor form, but it's one thing to perform for Sheff Utd than it is for United. There was always the talk of us being sorted in the GK position after VDS as we had Ben Foster who was performing wonders out on loan, making saves that maybe VDS wouldn't make, but after been given a chance, it was evident he wasn't quite upto the task of being a Man Utd GK.
I don't think De Gea fits their wage structure.
if you’ll be so kind as to disregard the typo, my point is that I think these stats are increased not only by weak defenses, but also by teams with good defenses that defend low much of the time (Atletico under Simeone, Mourinho’s teams) compared to other top clubs (Barca, Real, Bayern, Dortmund, PSG, Man City, Liverpool).
It’s still valid praise for a keeper, yet it qualifies it in the same way a striker scoring 30 goals need not be twice as good at scoring as one with 15 goals, if the first team’s main strategy seeks to put their striker through on goal while the other team tries more often to use a false nine setting up the wide forwards.
I agree to a point. I think that shot-stopping is still the single most important part of goalkeeping. I estimate that Ederson is the only goalkeeper where another attribute (kicking) is more important to his side than his shot-stopping.
I've always judged a keeper on how they dominate not just the six yard box but 18 yard box. Last minute and you're clinging onto a huge 1-0 away win and home team gets a corner and packs the box. Does the keeper stay rooted to his line and let defenders deal with it or does he come flying through the bodies and punch clear or even claim the corner?
That's huge for any defence. Someone like Shay Given could make 4-5 excellent reaction saves during a game but he would hardly ever come for a hard cross and let defenders deal with it so you let in loads of cheap goals a different way. Kepa at Chelsea is probably best example of that this season.
That's huge for any defence. Someone like Shay Given could make 4-5 excellent reaction saves during a game but he would hardly ever come for a hard cross and let defenders deal with it so you let in loads of cheap goals a different way. Kepa at Chelsea is probably best example of that this season.
Cudicini used to be so good a shot stopper.
I've no idea. Still, with these stats and him being the first choice goalie for the 5th best team in France I'd have thought someone might've gone for him for nothing. I know some say it's a farmer's league etc. but it's a decent standard and he can't be that bad. Wouldn't necessarily have to be a top club, or even as a #1 if he did go to a big club, just one who might be able to pay him more which I'd imagine would be every Premier League club for a start. Newcastle took Saint-Maximin from Nice.
Then there's the clubs who you hear are really into the stats, like the Red Bull Leipzig/Salzburg or if they were in the PL Brentford. I'm sure there's others but I don't know who they are. Then when it comes to straight up money there's China.
Bit biased but I always loved Brad Friedel in his best years.
Oblak, Ter Stegen, Alisson and Neuer. Hope DDG can usurp them and get back to the top, as it was solely him in 17-18. I don’t think he’s done just yet.
Pope is genuinely probably up there too. He’s been the best in the world this season imo.
Pope is genuinely probably up there too. He’s been the best in the world this season imo.
Updated data for 2020/21
Thought it would be a good idea to update this at the end of the year. The following data is for this season only and includes every keeper in the top five leagues in Europe who was played at least twelve full 90 minutes. Further information can be found in the first post of the thread.
For me, oblak is the best keeper in the world for the past couple of seasons at least
The worrying thing about DDG these days is that I think you can make a case for him being the worst keeper in the Premier League now when you consider all aspects of goalkeeping. He’s one of the very worst shot stoppers, one of the very worst at coming for crosses, one of the worst sweepers and average at passing.
He’s also the highest paid player in the league........
He’s also the highest paid player in the league........
It's ironic that last season his xG - G was only +0.01 in all competitions, with a negative return of 1.1 in the UCL. This season his shot stopping seems to be back to it's best (+4.6 all comps)
Neuer had a +4.0 return last season and this season currently has +6.4 in all comps (3.2 in the UCL in only 5 games!). When you combine with his other abilities, 59% long ball accuracy (second only to Ter Stegen for all keepers in the top 5 leagues), most sweeping actions per 90 along with most distance covered per sweeping action, he's for me been the best keeper in the world since the start of last season.
He's been in GOAT mode, the stats don't even account for how good he was in the biggest matches Bayern have had this season as well. That's why I even said he is the best player in the world right now, let alone the best keeper.
Shot-stopping wise certainly. On a cloud of his own in that regard if anyone gets that.
If we look at the bigger picture and the other goalkeeping attributes, Allison certainly is a very good shout for best in the world. Also has to be said that Neuer has been imperious for the last year or so after falling off quite a bit after his long-term injury.
Darlow and Pope for Newcastle and Burnley have looked supernatural this season in games. Glad to see the stats you calculated backs that up. Oblak really is in a league of his own when it comes to keeping isn't he? Messi/Ronaldo level separation from the rest of the pack.
David sitting where we all kind of expect him to be. He's really not that great anymore - he's also just not consistent enough. Seems to always have a brainfart in him.
David sitting where we all kind of expect him to be. He's really not that great anymore - he's also just not consistent enough. Seems to always have a brainfart in him.
Fabianski always ranks quite highly on shot stopping metrics. He's been rather quietly underrated for a long time. The basics of his game are solid too, though his distribution is fairly average.
Two things about Oblak
1. Looking at this season in the league, he's generally been good for half a goal a game saved going by PSxGA. Which is really impressive. He outperformed the metric in every game bar one - the derby against madrid(2 goals from 1.3 PSxGA) when madrid second goal came from a shot that hit the post and rebounded in off his back. In essence, the one time he underperfomed the metric, it was down to bad luck. At the same time, he faces the lowest average quality of shots(.22), tied with Courtois and Asenjo - he dramatically outperforms both(aside from a madridista: €30m in fee plus 16m a year in wages spent for a goalkeeper that isn't really any better than Keylor Navas was. The amount of damage Florentino managed to do in the 10 months of Zidane's absence is staggering) - which might go some way to explain the overperformance - and a look at his CL performances points in this direction. Essentially, he's an incredibly solid goalkeeper that doesn't make mistakes, while being significantly above average as a shot stopper, but not a miracle worker in the way, say, David De Gea was in 17/18
2. Atletico Madrid's playing style and personnel are perfect for him. Because he's a world class shot stopper, and Atletico Madrid doesn't ask him to be anything more. He doesn't have great command of the box - but he's not asked to because Atleti's CBs on the other hand do. He's not great with his feet in the build up - doesn't matter because Atleti don't involve him in it significantly. He's not much of a sweeper - doesn't matter because Atleti usually play deep and have great defensive transition, so again, they don't need him to do it
1. Looking at this season in the league, he's generally been good for half a goal a game saved going by PSxGA. Which is really impressive. He outperformed the metric in every game bar one - the derby against madrid(2 goals from 1.3 PSxGA) when madrid second goal came from a shot that hit the post and rebounded in off his back. In essence, the one time he underperfomed the metric, it was down to bad luck. At the same time, he faces the lowest average quality of shots(.22), tied with Courtois and Asenjo - he dramatically outperforms both(aside from a madridista: €30m in fee plus 16m a year in wages spent for a goalkeeper that isn't really any better than Keylor Navas was. The amount of damage Florentino managed to do in the 10 months of Zidane's absence is staggering) - which might go some way to explain the overperformance - and a look at his CL performances points in this direction. Essentially, he's an incredibly solid goalkeeper that doesn't make mistakes, while being significantly above average as a shot stopper, but not a miracle worker in the way, say, David De Gea was in 17/18
2. Atletico Madrid's playing style and personnel are perfect for him. Because he's a world class shot stopper, and Atletico Madrid doesn't ask him to be anything more. He doesn't have great command of the box - but he's not asked to because Atleti's CBs on the other hand do. He's not great with his feet in the build up - doesn't matter because Atleti don't involve him in it significantly. He's not much of a sweeper - doesn't matter because Atleti usually play deep and have great defensive transition, so again, they don't need him to do it
@Pagh Wraith I suppose this is the data for current season?
In that case De Gea would be ranked 15th/20 in the EPL (at least 10 full games per keeper) as for this moment in the season.
Edit:
It might be worth explaining for others - player on negative side are performing worse than expected (average keeper). So it's not looking very good for DDG.
In that case De Gea would be ranked 15th/20 in the EPL (at least 10 full games per keeper) as for this moment in the season.
Edit:
It might be worth explaining for others - player on negative side are performing worse than expected (average keeper). So it's not looking very good for DDG.
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I think he’s a really good keeper. It’s easier for a keeper to stand out in a shit side of course, but he was incredibly consistent at Swansea and the season they got relegated he was truly outstanding (which says a lot about how bad the team was).
I think his struggles at Arsenal did affect the perception of him for a while (the whole flapianski thing). I’m reading Wenger’s book atm, and he describes Fabianski as a “super-talented goalkeeper whose sensitivity was sometimes a handicap”. Being at a smaller club with less scrutiny (and more opportunities to get his confidence up with the goal being peppered) means that he could showcase his talent more without stumbling up because of pressure.
@Pagh Wraith I suppose this is the data for current season?
In that case De Gea would be ranked 15th/20 in the EPL (at least 10 full games per keeper) as for this moment in the season.
Edit:
It might be worth explaining for others - player on negative side are performing worse than expected (average keeper). So it's not looking very good for DDG.
He’s 17/20 if you do it per 90 minutes.
I would never give Dave for Oblak. Or for any other gk
De Gea is getting a lot of slack on here for sure. Not sure why considering people want to replace all back 4 every second game.