Best semis ever?
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For me this WC has turned sour. After all the excitement and potential of the Group Stages the goals have dried up, the dirty tackle ratio has hit record levels, referees refuse to punish early (rarely flourish the Yellow/Reds in proportion to the number of bad tackles) meaning the bad tackles continue and there isn't a worthy winner in the remaining 4. I'm gutted for Colombia.
There were 54 fouls in the Brazil/Colombia game (31 committed by Brazil) which was the most fouls in a game this World Cup. The game with the second most fouls was Brazil/Chile with 51 fouls (28 committed by Brazil). There have been 58 matches at this World Cup. Brazil's 31 fouls in the Colombia game were more fouls than the total in 36 of the 57 other matches.
If Brazil win it would be popular with people wanting a feel-good win for the people/country but it would be a travesty for the history books. Argentina's 'weak defence' is holding up really well and they could sneak it. Netherlands have lost their spark after the group stages, Germany could well take this and are probably the pick of the four, not that they are actually playing well either, but they have, for me, the strongest team/squad.
There is no real quality team in this year's WC and from that standpoint it's pretty crap.
There were 54 fouls in the Brazil/Colombia game (31 committed by Brazil) which was the most fouls in a game this World Cup. The game with the second most fouls was Brazil/Chile with 51 fouls (28 committed by Brazil). There have been 58 matches at this World Cup. Brazil's 31 fouls in the Colombia game were more fouls than the total in 36 of the 57 other matches.
If Brazil win it would be popular with people wanting a feel-good win for the people/country but it would be a travesty for the history books. Argentina's 'weak defence' is holding up really well and they could sneak it. Netherlands have lost their spark after the group stages, Germany could well take this and are probably the pick of the four, not that they are actually playing well either, but they have, for me, the strongest team/squad.
There is no real quality team in this year's WC and from that standpoint it's pretty crap.
Calm down mate.
All 4 are worthy candidates for the World Cup trophy, no need to kid yourself there.
- Germany are Germany, efficient and hard to break.
- Brasil are having the home advantage and up until now had an inspiring Neymar.
- Argentina have Messi, that alone is worthy of being a candidate.
- The Netherlands have been sensational because no one gave them a chance prior to the World Cup. Not only have they proven everyone wrong, they have also thumped the current World Champions 1-5 and sent them home early. Now if that alone doesn't make you a worthy candidate, then what does.
Too bad your darlings Colombia are out, but the only sour thing here seems to be your mood.
Calm down mate.
Too bad your darlings Colombia are out, but the only sour thing here seems to be your mood.
I may be a little sleep-deprived (driving 1,500 kms in the last 2 days) but I did say WORTHY winners and also said that the group stages were exciting - really enjoyed them ! So my WC footballing mood isn't sour without reason and FIFA need to accept a hefty dose of the blame for the poor refereeing too. I wonder how the last 4 would look if referees had taken action when needed.
As far as the last 4 are concerned there is simply no team that stands out as a true World Champion. Colombia just didn't raise their game when it mattered most, a pity Falcao missed the whole tournament. Germany are efficient but not outstanding, this is probably the worst Brazil side in living memory. I'd like the Netherlands to win it (though as much for their failures in 74 and 78 than anything else), as it'd be nice to see a new name on the cup (figuratively speaking), but they haven't been as good as in their group.
But Spain are? What the feck had Spain won before 2008? We are not a consistent superpower, we don't actually make it to about half the World Cups, but on our day we can give anyone a serious challenge. Who is the current Copa America holder? Brazil? Argentina? Colombia? Chile? Nope, the "small fish" that has won the most tournos at Continental level, that's who.That said, I think they are classic setups, which neither Spain-Germany nor Uruguay-Netherlands were. Argentina-Netherlands, a possible Arg-Bra final or Gery-Neth... Argentina-Germany a very likely -record- THIRD final pairing... Absolute classic matchups. In fact, Brazil-Germany is the most underwhelming in that regard. They have rarely played each other in knockouts bar the 2002 Final, which was hardly a classic.
14 World Cup final appearances between them and tomorrow will only be the 2nd time they face each other, it really is a shame. And it's even worse because when they meet, one of them always seems to field a team that contents for worst side that nation ever had. Germany in '02 really was our weakest generation after the war and this Brazil team without Neymar and Silva isn't any better, at least not on paper. I really hope I get to see a mighty clash between Germany and Brazil at the peak of their powers once in the next 10-12 years.
That said, I think they are classic setups, which neither Spain-Germany nor Uruguay-Netherlands were. Argentina-Netherlands, a possible Arg-Bra final or Gery-Neth... Argentina-Germany a very likely -record- THIRD final pairing... Absolute classic matchups. In fact, Brazil-Germany is the most underwhelming in that regard. They have rarely played each other in knockouts bar the 2002 Final, which was hardly a classic.
as usual. the 2010 winners needed missed penalties of paraguay, won every knock out stage 1-0, and robben was close to score the winner instead of iniesta. the 2006 winners needed missed penalties of france, the zidane incident, and have cheated their way past australia earlier in the tourney.
The QF matches were underwhelming to me, so I'm not too excited.
The first team you have there, the 1982 team is the reason Brazil have change the last 30 years. We don't play to entertain or please neutrals. It's all about winning trophies.
I am probably the only one here who enjoyed the QF's. I loved how tight they were and how much tension there was in the games. I think the same will happen in the SF's too. I love the fact that there is no clear superior team, it shows how close everyone is getting which for me is a good thing. We went for far too many years with just an elite group of 4 or 5 teams being able to win it. Now even though we still have 4 of the big name countries still in it we are getting closer to where a 2nd tier country might win it.
I have no idea who will win, have no favourite team among those left I just hope that at the end of it all the team that deserved it wins it.
I have no idea who will win, have no favourite team among those left I just hope that at the end of it all the team that deserved it wins it.
I'm not fussed if it's not end-to-end high-octane wünderfussball... the stakes are so high that it becomes an exciting affair to me even if both sides are nervy and stand-offish. I love the late stages <3
I thought they were great. I bet on the early rounds but stayed away from the quarters by and large since it was clear teams would set up for a win in 120 not 90
Easily Germany/France in 82
Exactly the same as me.
You are not the only one. It was a lot about tactics and organization - not so much about big technical play and goal chances.
nicely said.. feck the 80s Zico generation, didin't win anything
I can only say this to the Brazil haters, wanting us to play innocent football
It's harsh on the 02 one to call it not entertaining. Yes Ronaldo was following an injury but Rivaldo was sensational and the attack was very good to watch. The 94 one yes you can say it was a bit more workman-like. The 82 team is slated a bit too much and portrayed like a limp-dicked team like Arsenal of the last few years. They had a sensational midfield, possibly the best Brazil has ever fielded and they were getting the results as well while controlling the game and entertaining everyone. They defeated the world champions at that point and only lost to the eventual winners, who were a quality team themselves. In a closely contested game, one might add. You can't win every single WC you participate in, so changing the entire philosophy because you went out in one of them while having one of the best teams the WC has seen doesn't make sense. If I were the incharge, I'd be lucky to create a team like that for my nation one more time, not setting it as an example of something that shouldn't be done.
We associate Brazil with winning while entertaining everyone, and there's a reason the 1970 team is called the greatest national team to have played in the WC. It's just that right now there's not much quality comparable to Ronaldos, Rivaldos, Ronaldinhos etc but it would be a sad day when Brazil as a nation decide to give up on the samba.
I've heard Brazilians bemoan the cynical turn of the Selecão after 82 as well. And what, you had one legendary side who failed to get past the semis, and you abandon the Joga Bonito principle? If it really is as straight-forward as that, I don't know what to say.
it's your prerrogative, but feck did they play well
i was devastated when they loss against italy
that generation enforced brazils reputation as the very best
Its sad to see such ignorance from a Brazilian. The 80's side helped to grow the admiration of Brazilian footballers as being exciting, skilful and innovative. They had a massive influence on football fans all over the world, a huge positive influence and even if they didnt win anything they did more to produce respect and admiration for Brazilian football than the current side will do if they win the WC.
You should learn a little respect for your own footballing history, lots of the love many football fans have for Brazilian football comes because of that side Zico was in.
I didn't say 02 wasn't entertaining. I said Brazil change style after the 80's, the philosophy of Jogo Bonito died. We became a bit more European, the 90 and 94 teams highlighted that. The 02 team was a bit workman like and pragmatic as that how Scolari likes to build his teams. The difference was the 3 R's in a attack.
On paper this is a great final four. Every team is resonant in world football and each one has produced three or four teams in their history that stand up to scrutiny when being compared with the very best.
However what's also true is that none of those teams are the best that their country has ever produced. Indeed this is probably the worst Brazil side I can remember. Argentina have had a few poor sides but this cant touch their better teams. Holland are a mile away from the insanely talented squads they've had in the past.
Only Germany are comparable to earlier generations, and you kind of feel that the Beckenbauer or Matthaus would have turned one of those last three semi finals into a win.
However what's also true is that none of those teams are the best that their country has ever produced. Indeed this is probably the worst Brazil side I can remember. Argentina have had a few poor sides but this cant touch their better teams. Holland are a mile away from the insanely talented squads they've had in the past.
Only Germany are comparable to earlier generations, and you kind of feel that the Beckenbauer or Matthaus would have turned one of those last three semi finals into a win.
Brazil - Argentina, Germany - Holland would have been even better
I don't agree with him saying "feck Zico generation" but there are a lot of Brazilian who hold that mentality. They consider Zico generation losers. Not only for the World Cup in 82 and 86 but the Copa America in 83. The success of the teams during the 90's who adopted a more European approach even help dismiss the Zico generation even more. In saying that, not everybody hold this mentality.
Sad really. For one thing your rate of winning hasn't improved - after an initial flourish, you seem to collect the trophy every three or four tournaments.
For another, it almost seems behind the curve in terms of the development of football. This current squad would have flourished back in the 90s, with a strong spine and reliance on a couple of key gifted individuals. Swap Neymar for Romario and the similarities are striking with 94. But now we're at a time where all out attacking football is rewarded by the laws of the game. The team of 82 would flourish in this environment.
This is true as well. Some don't hold the 94 team in high regard because they played defensive futbol.
Since the 80's, we won 2 World Cups, 4 Copa America, 3 Confederations Cup compared to other teams for example Argentina haven't won anything since 93, Germany since 96. Brazil won something last year and if you don't rate that our last Copa A. was 7 year ago and WC 12 years ago which isn't too bad considering we went 24 years w/o anything.
I don't think the 82 team would do well in this environment considering the evolution of the game. It's more physical, more running, more pressing, more tactical. The 82 team conceded a goal with all 11 men in the box. They would be force to change something if they were to play in this era. The 1970 team would be the same thing IMO. 4-2-4 would be an incredibly risky formation in this era.
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A Germany - Netherlands or Brazil - Argentina final would be great. Both are huge international football rivalries.
I don't think you can compare physical fitness of today with previous teams. Fitness is about the conditioning you put the players under. As Sir Bobby Robson said (and this was 10 years ago), if you put a team of today against a team from 40 years ago they'd absolutely slaughter them. However if you put the players from that era under the conditions of today, they'd still be great players.
I don't doubt for a second that if you took the 70 & 82 team and game them modern training and a basic grounding in the tactics they're likely to face, that they'd still be great teams. I mean look at what passed for defending in this tournament.
There's another interesting point too. Since Brazil swapped its focus from flair to a more robust style it seems to be producing less and less flair players. In 94 and 02 it was those players that made the difference, or at least your goalscorers. Bebeto and Romario in 94, the three Rs in 2002. Others gave them the platform to build on but other teams have defenders and defensive midfielders too. Those players were the difference makers.
Now Brazil seem to have reached a point where it has so many robust direct midfielders it can leave Fernandinho and Willian on the bench, but so few skilful attackers or goalscorers that Fred and Jo are genuinely your best options in attack beyond Neymar.
As a country focusses on certain merits its entire football system positively selects certain attributes and ignores players with other skills. Only the truly exceptional cases get through, like Neymar. England know this better than anyone. Our focus on "big lads" with strong tackling and good long shots over players with tactical and technical ability has been a constant problem in our history.
I wonder whether, as time goes by, Brazil will end up with teams like the one we'll see tonight sans Neymar. Solid, direct and athletic, but no-one in attacking positions of any creative quality. For a non-Brazilian that seems really weird to think about.
I highly doubt a rampant Gentile kicking Zico, pulling his shirt to the extent it was in two pieces would be allowed by any ref at the moment. The physicality has disappeared compared to the days of the 80s. What current players receive seems to be nothing compared to the constant kicking the likes of Maradona, Zico, etc received regularly.
The development system has gone from one extreme to another. Back in the day, Brazil had a bundle of flair players but average to poor defenders but nowadays the roles are reverse as we turn out better defenders than Italy these day and very few attackers.
I highly doubt a rampant Gentile kicking Zico, pulling his shirt to the extent it was in two pieces would be allowed by any ref at the moment. The physicality has disappeared compared to the days of the 80s. What current players receive seems to be nothing compared to the constant kicking the likes of Maradona, Zico, etc received regularly.
It was more cynical back in the days. The kinda of hits the likes of Maradona, Pele and Zico face was horrible.
I recall being upset at the ref for ignoring Zico's penalty appeal after his shirt was torn to shreds. That Brazilian side could mix it up as well as Maradona found out. Ironically, a team that lost became more talked about than the eventual winners...and are perhaps the most famous side in history. Winning? Give me sexy football over winning at all cost.
The best thing about this 'semis', all teams have (more or less) similar chance on advancing to the Final.
Argentina - Netherlands: Argentina have superior players in general, with Messi has found his role to be more effective; against Netherlands that are managed by "footballing genius' van Gaal who are exceeding everyone's expectation so far.
Germany - Brazil: Germany with more balanced team and superior players, against Brazil who is a bit underdog, with their loss of Neymar and T. Silva (two of their very few world class players). And Fred. Although Brazil have the home advantage on every game, so things are a bit even out.
Argentina - Netherlands: Argentina have superior players in general, with Messi has found his role to be more effective; against Netherlands that are managed by "footballing genius' van Gaal who are exceeding everyone's expectation so far.
Germany - Brazil: Germany with more balanced team and superior players, against Brazil who is a bit underdog, with their loss of Neymar and T. Silva (two of their very few world class players). And Fred. Although Brazil have the home advantage on every game, so things are a bit even out.
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Watching them cry is so sweet.
Guess not.
Maybe the most shocking thing I've ever seen at the WC.
As predicted, Brazil's defence turned shit without T. Silva, and their attack was even more shit without Neymar. And of course, Fred.
I'm surprised this game ended without red cards .
you are right
it was a very clean game, despite some obvious divings from some brazilian players