That's one of the reasons why we paired them with Lubanski. All very mobile and fluid and capable across the front line. A bit like Laudrup, Stoichkov and Romario in some ways (not the same players, but some similarities in how they link and interchange and stretch the defence).Stoichkov is the star man? Blokhin was better
Although I expect them to interchange positions quite often.
Plus there were always an interesting option of starting Blokhin and Stoichkov as a front two
Behind the Curtain draft (Eastern Europe) | QF | Enigma_87 vs Gio 5:12
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Stoichkov is the star man? Blokhin was better
Although I expect them to interchange positions quite often.
Plus there were always an interesting option of starting Blokhin and Stoichkov as a front two
Stoichkov was for me
In a 4-4-2? Yeah that would've been interesting.
Yeah they are a good fit stylistically. Would've been much better if Stoichkov was on the left tho.
I'll get some work done and be back in couple of hours to wait some feedback from neutrals and their views on the game.
@Enigma_87 can you explain what you meant in your tactic for having a slightly deeper defensive line but pressing opposition off the ball? Does that mean you only press in your own half?
Yes, slightly different approach from last game, where I intended a bit higher defensive line and higher press. We will press Gio's attackers in our own half to deprive his attackers from space and time on the ball, but not press them high so we leave gaps at the back.
In this game the defensive line is pulled deeper so that it can counter free space left behind as I expected Gio to start with Blokhin and Stoichkov. The defensive line is pulled backwards and I have always 4 men at the back. The majority of the attacking game will be done by our two wingers, Kubala, Suker and Modric in deeper role.
I don't have much issue with Stoichkov on the right. He popped up there quite a bit from what I've seen and, with the exception of those great drilled crosses I associate him with, I don't really see what other parts of his game would suffer from playing on the right wing. I did find this little nugget on him during the reinforcements as I was semi-considering him myself:
From Morbo: The Story of Spanish Football by Phil Ball:
You can't actually see him pursuing the hare (starts at 6:57ish) but he does get himself irate enough to get sent off. Fantastic performance from the right wing though, scoring twice and getting an assist, which is the important thing I suppose
From Morbo: The Story of Spanish Football by Phil Ball:
You can't actually see him pursuing the hare (starts at 6:57ish) but he does get himself irate enough to get sent off. Fantastic performance from the right wing though, scoring twice and getting an assist, which is the important thing I supposethat was an excellent asset to his game however
Also in a more compact defensive line like in this game he won't be able to get through the lines that easily.Excellent quotes, @Pat_Mustard
Never heard of the cup story
edit: and what a performance by Romario. Imagine him instead of Suarez at the end of Messi's passes?
Never heard of the cup story
edit: and what a performance by Romario. Imagine him instead of Suarez at the end of Messi's passes?
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that was an excellent asset to his game however
It was a fine asset no doubt, but then again in that match vs Atletico I posted he lays on the assist with a cut back from the right wing with his right foot, so its not as if he's doomed to only ever cut inside from that position. It really does seem that he played most of the 93-94 season at least from the right wing, performing to a stellar level, so to me Stoichkov starting on the right is close to a non-factor. Agreed that the deep line was a necessity against Stoichkov and Blokhin, and you do have an excellent defence. I don't know how I'll vote yet, but I was just zeroing in on the Stoichkov issue as its the big talking point so far, and there's close to feck all I can do to turn my own match around
He really was fecking nuts
. I'm about to order that book from Amazon, partly in the hope that there's more stories like that in it.Re: Stoichkov, nothing wrong with him on the right. It's a bit like Robben or Di Maria being played either side: natural width or cutting in onto the stronger foot type thing. Ergo, how you expect your wide forward and fullback to combine is key.
It was a fine asset no doubt, but then again in that match vs Atletico I posted he lays on the assist with a cut back from the right wing with his right foot, so its not as if he's doomed to only ever cut inside from that position. It really does seem that he played most of the 93-94 season at least from the right wing, performing to a stellar level, so to me Stoichkov starting on the right is close to a non-factor. Agreed that the deep line was a necessity against Stoichkov and Blokhin, and you do have an excellent defence. I don't know how I'll vote yet, but I was just zeroing in on the Stoichkov issue as its the big talking point so far, and there's close to feck all I can do to turn my own match around
To be honest I didn't intend to build my case on Stoichkov being played on the right. As you know when there is a single argument it can evolve to 20-30 replies just to highlight a point and you get engaged into the discussion and so forth.
Still I think I've laid my case on that matter more than enough so won't bore the audience anymore with that, it's up for the voters to decide on the matter(and how important it is).
Where I see us having advantage is the CB pair and that it has more quality in them IMO to deal better with Gio's forwards.
I think we have a stronger midfield all in all.
Pluskal was just defensively ruthless. Nobody paints him as a snazzy ball player, as you can often get with ye olden day eulogies, but everything clearly centres on his discipline, strength, leadership, ball-winning ability, tactical soundness. All of that points to a very tough match-up for Kubala.
Pluskal was just defensively ruthless. Nobody paints him as a snazzy ball player, as you can often get with ye olden day eulogies, but everything clearly centres on his discipline, strength, leadership, ball-winning ability, tactical soundness. All of that points to a very tough match-up for Kubala.
Czechoslovakian national team coach Rudolf Vytlačil said:
Dukla's manager Vejvoda Pluskalová said:
our main in the nets said:
I think @Joga Bonito had a big write-up about him somewhere? Or my memory is playing tricks on me
I think Boniek industry with Modric and Zakarias - both world class midfielders at the time and considering Sekularac providing sweet feck all in the defensive phase really makes it 2 vs 3 in midfield most of the time.
So indeed Pluskal and Voronin are tasked to keep the whole midfield together and do most of the dirty work. Not saying they aren't world class midfielders but so are Modric and Zakarias with the industry of Boniek and of course Gadocha also provides some work rate.
I can't see you guys having an edge there to be honest. It's pretty even battle.
So indeed Pluskal and Voronin are tasked to keep the whole midfield together and do most of the dirty work. Not saying they aren't world class midfielders but so are Modric and Zakarias with the industry of Boniek and of course Gadocha also provides some work rate.
I can't see you guys having an edge there to be honest. It's pretty even battle.
And alongside Pluskal is the great Valery Voronin. I think he's the best all-round midfielder on the park, sharing many of Pluskal's off the ball qualities, but using the ball swiftly with unerring accuracy. Someone compared him to Keane recently and I see a lot of the similarities again in terms of leadership, off-the-ball discipline, effective, consistent and positive use of the ball, all of which leads to that critical aspect of winning all the small battles that, when added together, provide control of the midfield.
And then ahead of him is Dragan Sekularac, 8th in France Football's all-time greatest attacking midfielder list in 1984. I appreciate the important support-act role Zakarias played for the Magyars, particularly having replicated them in the Remake draft. But it's fairly clear he is the weakest midfielder on the park, and for all of Hungary's brilliance going forward, they were never particularly solid defensively. I think Sekularac has the craft and guile to create openings from time to time.
Journaist Leonid Repin said:
Jonothan Wilson said:
And then ahead of him is Dragan Sekularac, 8th in France Football's all-time greatest attacking midfielder list in 1984. I appreciate the important support-act role Zakarias played for the Magyars, particularly having replicated them in the Remake draft. But it's fairly clear he is the weakest midfielder on the park, and for all of Hungary's brilliance going forward, they were never particularly solid defensively. I think Sekularac has the craft and guile to create openings from time to time.
Of course mate, and in fairness its where alot of the interesting nuances about a player get thrashed out.
If you're looking at work rate all over the park, then we know that Blokhin - a Lobanobskiy disciple, Stoichkov - a fiery pocket dynamo, and Lubanski - part of a hard-working Polish team that defended from the front, can contribute plenty.
None can match Boniek work rate tho
Although Zakarias never got the plaudits he deserves, he was pretty instrumental figure for that Hungary side. I mean he was excellent defensively he held that part in that midfield almost on his own to give Bozsik the stage to do his thing.
A bit like Zito in that wonderful Brazilian sides.
I don't think he's inferior to Pluskal in any way in the same way Modric is not to Voronin.
Looking at the midfield I'd say ours is the more creative one Modric, Kubala compared to Sekularac and Voronin. The work rate if you look at the bigger picture even if you have an edge is marginal considering the rest of the players on the pitch.
I'd give the edge in both instances to Pluskal and Voronin and I imagine most others would agree. That's not to play either Zakarias or Modric down. And Zakarias did perform an important role for Hungary, offering some positional discipline in an otherwise gung-ho attacking set-up. But he's not the sort of player who is remembered particularly well. We hear about the eulogies for the magic five of Puskas, Czibor, Kocsis, Bozsik and Hidegkuti, but the defensive part of the team didn't have the same quality. And even despite having that profile of being in and contributing to such a famous team, he rarely features in many considerations of the best defensive midfielders of all time. In contrast, Pluskal has the really high praise, was recognised beyond his own team through the Rest of the World selection, and was clearly a standout player for Czechoslovakia in reaching the World Cup Final in 1962.
Same with Voronin/Modric. I rate Modric a lot for what he has been doing in recent years for Real Madrid and Croatia, very neat and tidy and a good all-round contributor. But I think Voronin brings more gravitas to the table: commanding, imposing, defensively robust, excellent on the ball, capable of getting forward to score a crucial goal (1964 Euros Semi-Final). He's probably in the top three Soviets of all time with Yashin and Blokhin, although happy to be corrected by the local expert there.
Zakarias is the least impressive of the midfielders on show, but you could credibly argue that Modric is the best IMO. Pluskal was a monstrous defensive specialist and Voronin seems to have been a cracking all-rounder, but equally Modric has been at the top of the pile in the modern game for several years now. I would give your pair the edge here, although factoring in the respective AMs in Kubala and Sekularac adds another layer of complexity in assessing the two units, with Kubala having the higher standing in the game but Sekularac presumably playing deeper than him on average and possibly seeing more of the ball.
We're basically on the same page I think. As good as Voronin is he's no better than Modric in the attacking phase. As good as Sekularac is Kubala is the better player in attack.
Of course that Hungarian side was magical going forward and the focal point was that but still you have to defend and Lorant and Zakarias were the clear and outstanding players in that defensive phase. Buzanski was a bit of a wing back at the time, with more attacking output rather than defending. Zakarias had an immense work rate and achieved similar success to Pluskal.
Either way as I said there's little to separate the two midfields where Voronin and Pluskal have edge defensively we have edge in attack with Modric better in that aspect than Voronin and Kubala than Sekularac. With the added influence of Boniek in the defensive phase I don't think you have an edge defensively either.
On the other side I can't see your defence doing a better job than ours. Novak is better defensively than Lovchev and is an excellent for Stoichkov. Same with Blokhin against Dzodzuashvili, while our CB pair is better and IMO a good fit to deal with Lubanski and Sekularac. On the other side Boniek and Gadocha are pretty lethal at counters and behind the space left for your full backs when going forward.
Don't have an issue with Stoichkov on the right and can see him playing well there. Only issue being that you do lose a wee bit of his creative ability as he had a lovely left peg on him and could definitely float in a nice cross/cross-field ball/incisive through-ball. On the right, I do think it will be hampered a wee bit but it's not exactly significant with an excellent wing-back behind him in Bezsonov and the creative cast he is playing with. Certainly like this forward trio much more than the one with Belanov and Pluskal is an excellent complement to Sekularac and Voronin. The side and midfield was looking a wee bit gung-ho in the first round (which was the intended approach) but with the midfield duo of Pluskal-Voronin, it looks a lot more stable and feasible. So great upgrades there imo.
Really like the look of Enigma's forward trio and Kubala here. He's done a great job selling Kubala, whom I felt has always been a wee bit underrated. Would have preferred a more aerially dominant presence in the forward line with Gadocha being one of the best pure wingers in the draft but I can see him providing great balance to Boniek and Kubala here. Suker too is ideally suited to play with the mobile and technical Kubala and Boniek, and Modric for that matter. All in all, I can see that forward line working really well. Regarding the Belodedici-Khurtsilava duo, I don't really see any complementarity issues here. Belodedici was clearly a sweeper who played behind the defensive line, whilst Khurtsilava was the more offensive ball-playing defender in the duo - can recall him hitting the bar against Germany and posing a threat with his passing from deep against Germany in 1972 (can't remember if it was the final or the friendly prior to that tournament). A really classy and a fairly complete pairing although I do think they could have issues if they come up against a really physical battering ram of a centre-forward who is really dominant aerially.
I'd like to know more about Lovchev and his defensive credentials as he has a tough match-up against Boniek here. Likewise Novak, against Stoichkov. @Enigma_87 @Gio @Theon
Can't really decide who to vote for as it stands and might do so later depending on how the discussions pan out.
It was for the Euros draft and you helped a great deal with the translation. Wasn't really long though as most of the sources that I found about him was in Russian or Czech (is that a language?).
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-uefa-euro-fantasy-draft.403052/page-63#post-17509624
Really like the look of Enigma's forward trio and Kubala here. He's done a great job selling Kubala, whom I felt has always been a wee bit underrated. Would have preferred a more aerially dominant presence in the forward line with Gadocha being one of the best pure wingers in the draft but I can see him providing great balance to Boniek and Kubala here. Suker too is ideally suited to play with the mobile and technical Kubala and Boniek, and Modric for that matter. All in all, I can see that forward line working really well. Regarding the Belodedici-Khurtsilava duo, I don't really see any complementarity issues here. Belodedici was clearly a sweeper who played behind the defensive line, whilst Khurtsilava was the more offensive ball-playing defender in the duo - can recall him hitting the bar against Germany and posing a threat with his passing from deep against Germany in 1972 (can't remember if it was the final or the friendly prior to that tournament). A really classy and a fairly complete pairing although I do think they could have issues if they come up against a really physical battering ram of a centre-forward who is really dominant aerially.
I'd like to know more about Lovchev and his defensive credentials as he has a tough match-up against Boniek here. Likewise Novak, against Stoichkov. @Enigma_87 @Gio @Theon
Can't really decide who to vote for as it stands and might do so later depending on how the discussions pan out.
It was for the Euros draft and you helped a great deal with the translation. Wasn't really long though as most of the sources that I found about him was in Russian or Czech (is that a language?).
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-uefa-euro-fantasy-draft.403052/page-63#post-17509624
Wait for the angry czech to arrive in 3, 2...
Voronin was magnificent, man. Look at his attacking play, for example, on an old gif that I made for Chislenko (Voronin is n.5)
edit: this episode is not as impressive though, should've found smth better
He was voted 10th, 8th and 11th in Ballon D'Or from 1964 to 1966, and the only midfielders better than him were Suarez and Charlton at that time (well, and Beckenbauer - he was a midfielder at that time, right?) - crème de la crème. Voronin was significantly better than Modric defensively but I don't think that there was a big gap in their technical skills or passing range. Comrade bias and all that but he is one of the very few USSR greats that belong in the best of all time discussion (with Yashin, Dasaev, Blokhin and Streltsov*) - so Modric isn't better. The gap isn't huge though, Modric is a magnificent player and his performances both for his club and his country are absolutely brilliant.
*partly hypothetical
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When I glanced at this matchup last night the first thing I thought was Gio's right side looks great, so I found it pretty odd that Enigma kept going on about it. I don't see it as a weakness whatsoever, Stoichkov cutting in onto his left and Bessonov overlapping on the outside, should work wonderfully.
I think Gio has a bit more steel in the midfield as well, which gives him a slight edge IMO.
I think Gio has a bit more steel in the midfield as well, which gives him a slight edge IMO.
Fair play, I'm not hugely familiar with Voronin by any stretch so I'm possibly underrating him. That said, I'm very high on Modric at the minute. The sheer volume of defensive graft he got through in the last Clasico for example, and his brilliant resistance act against Spain at Euro 12 always come to mind as examples of him finding ways to stamp his authority on a game even in adverse circumstances. Coupled with running the show at one of the biggest clubs in the world for several seasons now, he's got a really impressive body of work IMO.Modric is the best midfielder on the pitch for me, he's been absolutely phenomenal over the last many years for Real and Spurs, the best midfielder of this decade so far which has been heavily midfield oriented in the top teams and he has come out on top on several occasions against in important games and propelled his team to the highest stage. More importantly, he is the one who has the ability to absolutely control the game from midfield and dictate the flow of play, which really is key for me. I don't see that metronomic class on the ball and in terms of creativity and dictating the tempo on the other side and I can see Modric running the show here. Definitely a key factor in the outcome of this game.
@Gio That Jonathan Wilson quote about Russia's greatest ever outfield player was for Streltsov in the article he wrote about him. Where did you find him saying that about Voronin?
This is quite convoluted logic and I'm not sure why you would add in Boniek when comparing the defensive contributions, but omit Stoichkov and Blokhin who were similarly industrious footballers. In terms of you having an edge in attack, I can't agree at all there with Stoichkov and Blokhin being as good as any attacker in the draft (bar Puskas).
If I was ranking the four central midfielders it would be Voronin as the standout, then Modric/Pluskal relatively close together albeit very different players, with Zakarias the poorest of the bunch (which coincidentally is the order in which they were picked).
In addition to the edge in overall quality, in my opinion our midfield is slightly better balanced and well-matched to the games individual battles. After much deliberation we swapped out Zavarov (one of Eastern Europe's great playmakers and a regular feature in the Ballon d'Or) for Pluskal, in order to provide more defensive solidity if we to face a top #10 such as Hagi, Kubala, Deyna - players this draft is full of. In that respect I think the platform of Pluskal / Voronin will be more effective in limiting Kubala than Zakarias / Modric will be in limiting Sekularac. One of the most effective aspects of Kubala was his sheer strength and physicality but that's well matched by Pluskal (and to a lesser extent Voronin).
I agree with some of your other comments though and you have an excellent pair of centre backs.
Agreed with this. What Modric has done for Tottenham, Real and Croatia has been nothing short of impressive and he's arguably been the best creative playmaking central midfielder at his prime post Xavi. Voronin is on par with him, although it's not exactly easy to compare the both of them given their variances in playing style and position (nothing major though but Voronin was clearly the more defensive of the duo whilst Modric the more creative of the duo, despite both being great all-rounders).
Do think both sides have the ideal AM/SS in Sekularac and Kubala, with Sekularac being the more creative #10-SS hybrid and Kubala being the more forward-like player in front of Modric.
Indeed, both quite different from what I've read. I preferred Voronin in the last game the way they used him, was possibly his idea role in that formation and looked like he would be in his element. He seems defensively outstanding and doesn't need another destroyer to allow him to influence the game going forward which should ideally make room for another creative CM. Even if the comparisons with Keane are valid, I wouldn't necessarily have Keane in that role in a 4-3-3 (Keane in a 4-3-3 is a bit odd for me anyway). Both him and Pluskas seems a bit too negative to me and while that would be a nightmare to play against and they can suffocate a lot of the opposition midfield going forward it might be a bit less than optimum. I'd personally have Voronin as the DM in a 4-3-3 with a good all round creative player (someone like Modric would be perfect) and an AM/#10 to complete it.
Having said that while that midfield might not dominate possession and the create constant pressure on the ball, it could be good on the counter especially with that front three.
Think that midfield setup and what it is up against is what has edged me towards Enigma in this game, incredibly tight but Modric's creative presence there makes the difference behind that attack.
Completely missed that the poll had closed. Guess it wouldn't have made much of a difference.Voronin - Pluskal with an attacking midfielder is pretty much perfect and to say that it lacks something going forward would be significantly under rating Voronin's ability.
Would you say that Redondo - Pluskal is an unbalanced pairing, for example?
More so, with Sekularac here it's much closer to a classic 4-2-4 and you need midfielders who can carry the whole attacking quartet on their backs
Would you say that Redondo - Pluskal is an unbalanced pairing, for example?
More so, with Sekularac here it's much closer to a classic 4-2-4 and you need midfielders who can carry the whole attacking quartet on their backs
I like the pair myself, although I'd agree the same setup with Voronin at DM and Modric in his place is better, but that's largely down to Modric being superb and not the current midfield balance being wrong.
I like these 2 teams.
Like many, I'm very comfortable with the positioning of Stoickov: proven track record, played in the position under the supervision of Cruyjff who know some things in Football, ability to cut inside and score... His natural aggressivity contributes to his versatility.
Great job.
Very nice input. Is it a picture you made or something you found on the Internet?
Like many, I'm very comfortable with the positioning of Stoickov: proven track record, played in the position under the supervision of Cruyjff who know some things in Football, ability to cut inside and score... His natural aggressivity contributes to his versatility.
Great job.
Very nice input. Is it a picture you made or something you found on the Internet?
Good effort @Enigma_87 - that was a tough draw for us and a very tight match-up.
On the midfield, the benefit of bringing in Pluskal is that he's as good as anyone in his defensive duties in midfield and becomes a tough match-up for any top tier 10 or 9.5 like Kubala. I'm very comfortable with Voronin then showcasing more of his all-round game - there is plenty of high praise on his passing range, accuracy and vision. And as a duo it provides a very controlling platform to support the attack. Equally though given what Voronin offers, we were happy with him as a 6 and Zavarov operating as an 8. Zavarov has played in midfield duos before alongside the likes of a more classic 10 like Mikhailachenko, so he's very comfy as a 8. The important principle is having the flexibility to tailor either approach depending on what threats the opposition presents.
On the midfield, the benefit of bringing in Pluskal is that he's as good as anyone in his defensive duties in midfield and becomes a tough match-up for any top tier 10 or 9.5 like Kubala. I'm very comfortable with Voronin then showcasing more of his all-round game - there is plenty of high praise on his passing range, accuracy and vision. And as a duo it provides a very controlling platform to support the attack. Equally though given what Voronin offers, we were happy with him as a 6 and Zavarov operating as an 8. Zavarov has played in midfield duos before alongside the likes of a more classic 10 like Mikhailachenko, so he's very comfy as a 8. The important principle is having the flexibility to tailor either approach depending on what threats the opposition presents.
Yeah, that's the game that really puts him up there for me - very few if any have really wrestled control of the midfield in such a positive manner against that Spanish (2008-2012) generation.
Dug out from another forum. It's quite intriguing to see the relative standing of players at different stages in football history, especially here just prior to the emergence and full exposure of the 1980s generation of talent (Maradona, Van Basten, Baresi, Matthaus, Maldini, Gullit, etc). It's quite valuable to get what is likely to be first-hand perspectives of players from the 1940s and 1950s and how they sat alongside some of the more renowned stars of the 1960s and beyond.