BBC Panorama: Immigration

[Kentonio]

I agree that the level of sincerity intensifies things. That's all predicated on whether you interpret the initial intentions and actions to be racist in nature, though. Which was the point of discussion. Which you knew if you read the follow-up. So either you did and you ignored it, or you didn't, because you read what you wanted to read and then decided to make a point that you felt really had to be made.

Do you feel better about calling a stranger a racist?

Frankly I’m tired of hearing people trying to argue that black is white, up is down and racism isn’t racism.

My parents are lovely people, hugely warm hearted and would do anything for anyone. They’re also quite racist. Not towards individuals, but in a general sense. If they personally knew more people of other races they probably wouldn’t be, but they don’t and so they are.

If you don’t want to feel personally offended, then don’t use your family to try and make points in discussions.

 

[GloryHunter07]

I actually think attitudes like this are quite common. I've heard plenty of people put across fairly hostile views to immigration, but for the most part those people will generally be fine with, say, their cousin's foreign wife, or their local Chinese takeaway owner, or their urban professional French next door neighbour, or the guy who owns an Italian restaurant they like a lot. People often seem to be fine with individual immigrants, but it's when they think of that generalised 'other' they start to become a lot more wary and hostile to immigration.

I remember in the lead-up to Trump's election there was an article which explained this heightened phenomenon in the US: a lot of rural Republican voters who'd have questionable views weren't/aren't really disparaging to individual minorities in their community, but were instead a lot warier of urban African American communities that they were mostly unaccustomed with. The general takeaway was that people were fine with racial minorities/immigrants so long as they were a substantially minority group who adapted completely to their way of life. Once they perceive/d a threat, that starts to change and they become a lot more hostile, even if the things that have changed in their lives have nothing to do with immigration or minority groups whatsoever.

I think a lot of people get caught up in media driven narratives (largely bullshit) about faceless immigrants and fail to reconcile that with real life. They are unable to grasp the fact that these narratives are in fact bullshit.

Same has been happening with how Muslims are portrayed in the rag media.

 

[Sweet Square]

I think a lot of people get caught up in media driven narratives (largely bullshit) about faceless immigrants and fail to reconcile that with real life. They are unable to grasp the fact that these narratives are in fact bullshit.

Same has been happening with how Muslims are portrayed in the rag media.

EU referendum: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

This one is a couple of years old(So I image some data might be wrong) now but still worth mentioning
11 charts that show British people are wrong about almost everything

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ople-are-completely-wrong-about-a6757551.html

 

[NinjaFletch]

I don't think the cause of those intentions (in this case, the media) would decide whether it's racist or not. Nor am I upset that people called her a racist. I said in the same post you quoted, the very first point I made, that I would understand if someone deems that to be racist. I'm not trying to prove to you that my mum isn't a racist. You must surely understand how little I care about making that point to a bunch of strangers about someone they will never know.

To me this is the problem with the discussion. It's so charged and people get so indignant about it that it just becomes a battle of attrition and a shouting competition. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the issue or the validity of the arguments.

But what exactly is the issue here? The right for people to say racist things from time to time without being labelled a racist? The right to advocate the exclusion of groups based entirely on their race without being labelled a racist?

I agree that people don't like being called a racist, and, therefore, the term is quite divisive, but surely the answer is for those people who don't like being called a racist to stop doing racist things rather than those who point out the racism to stop doing so because it hurts peoples feelings?

This trope about how 'you can't talk about immigration without being called a racist', which I assume you're getting at here, has no basis in reality. You absolutely can talk about immigration, and if you present genuine grievances then they'll be discussed on their merits – and that is certainly the case on the Caf if it isn't necessarily elsewhere. What you can't do is use 'immigration' as a thinly veiled excuse to present racist views without people seeing through it. If people don't realise that that is what they're doing, and I fully believe in some cases they don't, it doesn't make their opinion any more legitimate.

 

[afrocentricity]

But what exactly is the issue here? The right for people to say racist things from time to time without being labelled a racist? The right to advocate the exclusion of groups based entirely on their race without being labelled a racist?

I agree that people don't like being called a racist, and, therefore, the term is quite divisive, but surely the answer is for those people who don't like being called a racist to stop doing racist things rather than those who point out the racism to stop doing so because it hurts peoples feelings?

This trope about how 'you can't talk about immigration without being called a racist', which I assume you're getting at here, has no basis in reality. You absolutely can talk about immigration, and if you present genuine grievances then they'll be discussed on their merits – and that is certainly the case on the Caf if it isn't necessarily elsewhere. What you can't do is use 'immigration' as a thinly veiled excuse to present racist views without people seeing through it. If people don't realise that that is what they're doing, and I fully believe in some cases they don't, it doesn't make their opinion any more legitimate.

Said everything I was about to say on that issue. People need to think about the things they are fighting for/against and ask themselves why...?

 

[Dumbstar]

Doesnt surprise me, i feel terrible for your gf though!

Sounds like they voted to get rid of the wrong "type" of immigrants.

The same people will chalk it down to collateral damage.

 

[Brwned]

But what exactly is the issue here? The right for people to say racist things from time to time without being labelled a racist? The right to advocate the exclusion of groups based entirely on their race without being labelled a racist?

I agree that people don't like being called a racist, and, therefore, the term is quite divisive, but surely the answer is for those people who don't like being called a racist to stop doing racist things rather than those who point out the racism to stop doing so because it hurts peoples feelings?

This trope about how 'you can't talk about immigration without being called a racist', which I assume you're getting at here, has no basis in reality. You absolutely can talk about immigration, and if you present genuine grievances then they'll be discussed on their merits – and that is certainly the case on the Caf if it isn't necessarily elsewhere. What you can't do is use 'immigration' as a thinly veiled excuse to present racist views without people seeing through it. If people don't realise that that is what they're doing, and I fully believe in some cases they don't, it doesn't make their opinion any more legitimate.

For me the issue is about understanding in a real way what people think, why they think it, what the implications are and what the solutions are, all with regards to immigration. That's what the thread was originally about, but literally the 2nd reply turned it into a discussion about racism. Anyone suggesting they aren't linked is kidding themselves, but the same is true of people who think it's the only link that matters.

The thing is, of the three people that replied to me, two of them immediately brought emotion into the discussion. You and @Kentonio both immediately decided I was upset / offended. Despite the fact in my very first post I said people can say whatever they want, making it pretty clear it's not something I'd be remotely offended or upset by. If you were here next to me you could see how ridiculous that is. Offence levels are 0.

I actually called my mum a racist in that moment, shocked at what I was hearing, and typically speaking my views would be quite close to yours on this. On reflection I changed my mind though. Or rather I softened my stance. In part because of some interesting studies posted by @PedroMendez on the link between social cohesion and immigration, among other discussions on here, which illustrate the complexity of the issue in a way I hadn't personally considered. So I also agree with you that you can have more open discussions on here than in many places.

In spite of that, you made an assumption about what my point was, an assumption about what my emotional state was, and an assumption about my intentions, all while telling me I'm wrong and placing yourself on a moral high ground. That's before any attempt to discuss things took place. That belies your suggestion that talking about immigration is a perfectly possible conversation. Sure, you can grit your teeth, ignore all the insinuations, and calmly make your point. But you aren't encouraged to do so. What you've done is actively discourage that, despite evidently being quite a reasonable person.

I personally don't think my mum is a racist, despite saying something I find alarming, confounding, disheartening and many other things all at once. I have racist family members and I have a couple of particularly racist friends (of friends) who have a genuine hatred of aboriginal people in their area, for reasons which are outrageous in and of themselves. To me the difference is quite stark.

You could argue that I'm just distinguishing between casual racism in my mum, and active, targeted racism in my friends. You could argue that casual racism is actually more damaging to society given its prevalence. And you could argue that my own acceptance of that, and what that says about wider society, is perhaps the biggest challenge to overcome. You might well be right. I don't personally think so, but I do think it's incredibly complicated and understand the varied views on things. I also think the over-simplification of the issue, as happened in the 2nd reply to this thread, is a really serious issue and a very counter-productive approach. Which was my original point.

 

[NinjaFletch]

For me the issue is about understanding in a real way what people think, why they think it, what the implications are and what the solutions are, all with regards to immigration. That's what the thread was originally about, but literally the 2nd reply turned it into a discussion about racism. Anyone suggesting they aren't linked is kidding themselves, but the same is true of people who think it's the only link that matters.

The thing is, of the three people that replied to me, two of them immediately brought emotion into the discussion. You and @Kentonio both immediately decided I was upset / offended. Despite the fact in my very first post I said people can say whatever they want, making it pretty clear it's not something I'd be remotely offended or upset by. If you were here next to me you could see how ridiculous that is. Offence levels are 0.

I actually called my mum a racist in that moment, shocked at what I was hearing, and typically speaking my views would be quite close to yours on this. On reflection I changed my mind though. Or rather I softened my stance. In part because of some interesting studies posted by @PedroMendez on the link between social cohesion and immigration, among other discussions on here, which illustrate the complexity of the issue in a way I hadn't personally considered. So I also agree with you that you can have more open discussions on here than in many places.

In spite of that, you made an assumption about what my point was, an assumption about what my emotional state was, and an assumption about my intentions, all while telling me I'm wrong and placing yourself on a moral high ground. That's before any attempt to discuss things took place. That belies your suggestion that talking about immigration is a perfectly possible conversation. Sure, you can grit your teeth, ignore all the insinuations, and calmly make your point. But you aren't encouraged to do so. What you've done is actively discourage that, despite evidently being quite a reasonable person.

I personally don't think my mum is a racist, despite saying something I find alarming, confounding, disheartening and many other things all at once. I have racist family members and I have a couple of particularly racist friends (of friends) who have a genuine hatred of aboriginal people in their area, for reasons which are outrageous in and of themselves. To me the difference is quite stark.

You could argue that I'm just distinguishing between casual racism in my mum, and active, targeted racism in my friends. You could argue that casual racism is actually more damaging to society given its prevalence. And you could argue that my own acceptance of that, and what that says about wider society, is perhaps the biggest challenge to overcome. You might well be right. I don't personally think so, but I do think it's incredibly complicated and understand the varied views on things. I also think the over-simplification of the issue, as happened in the 2nd reply to this thread, is a really serious issue and a very counter-productive approach. Which was my original point.

Do you not think that the fact two users of the three that replied to you thought you were upset or offended by what was being said can far more plausibly be explained by the fact that that's how your posts came, and continue to come across, than some grand conspiracy to shut down debate by accusing posters of being emotional? Not to mention the fact that neither @Kentonio or I accused you of seeming upset or offended because of what you said about immigration, but for seeming upset that posters called your mother a racist. It's incredibly disingenuous to try and use that as some sort of proof that you couldn't discuss immigration. We'll move past it; if you say you weren't upset then you weren't.

So anyway, I'm not sure I agree with your central point. I don't think there is much shown in the video above, or in the example you presented with your mum, that isn't understood. In this particular instance I'm even less certain there's anything in another video where a bunch of people show a willingness to cut immigration based on reasoning they're either unwilling or unable to articulate that we haven't already seen before.

But then I think we're approaching it from a different angle. I fundamentally believe that every single human being on the planet, myself obviously included, regardless of what they say, hold biases they don't even realise they hold. Simply labelling examples of those biases as the word that is used to describe them (be it sexist, homophobic, racist, xenophobic, transphobic, classist, or whatever) is simply using language as it is intended. It is, as I said in my very first reply, simply calling a spade a spade. If you chose to define those words, or are only comfortable with using them, to describe systematic examples then that's equally as valid; I disagree, and I'm more than willing to discuss why I disagree.

Choosing to dig ones heels in and getting offended when it's pointed out rather than turning to introspection and challenging viewpoints is what I have truck with. The one thing I found interesting about that video was the last couple at the end who, when faced with the logical problem at the heart of the views on immigration responded by genuinely seeming to reflect upon how they got there in the first place. Whether they did or not who knows.

I don't know if you've stumbled across this before, but this was a real eye opener for me: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

 

[villain]

But what exactly is the issue here? The right for people to say racist things from time to time without being labelled a racist? The right to advocate the exclusion of groups based entirely on their race without being labelled a racist?

I agree that people don't like being called a racist, and, therefore, the term is quite divisive, but surely the answer is for those people who don't like being called a racist to stop doing racist things rather than those who point out the racism to stop doing so because it hurts peoples feelings?

This trope about how 'you can't talk about immigration without being called a racist', which I assume you're getting at here, has no basis in reality. You absolutely can talk about immigration, and if you present genuine grievances then they'll be discussed on their merits – and that is certainly the case on the Caf if it isn't necessarily elsewhere. What you can't do is use 'immigration' as a thinly veiled excuse to present racist views without people seeing through it. If people don't realise that that is what they're doing, and I fully believe in some cases they don't, it doesn't make their opinion any more legitimate.

Excellent post.

@Brwned did you question your mum on what she said and why she said it?
“People must feel safe in Belfast because all they see is white people” implies that non-white people are dangerous, no?
How is that not racist?
If it was anyone else but your mum who said such a thing, surely you would call them racist?

If not, I’d love to see how you justify how that statement isn’t discrimination based on race.

I would argue that the ones who hold casual racist views have the ability to cause more harm to minorities than the ones who are explicit in their racism.

 

[Ducklegs]

Maybe UK will see the salaries of the lowly paid actually go up if there is competition to get staff. Price of British fruit will soar as no-one will be picking it for 2.90 an hour.

We were picking fruit for £2.90 an hour before mass EU immigration.

The whole problem goes right back to New Labour, the minimum wage, the benefits and tax credit system they introduced, and a whole other raft of policies they introduced that effectively priced British nationals out of those jobs and created a situation where they were only economically viable if they were filled by what is effectively imported slave labour.

Its not a good thing that there are a bunch of Polish and Bulgarian peasants flogging themselves into an early grave for pennies an hour, living ten to a room in illegally sub letted accomodation so we can have fruit and veg at a reasonable price.

Its a bad thing that a UK national cant go and prick fruit because the employer will have to pay them £7.83 an hour, plus pension and NIC contributions, plus all the other associated bollocks that goes with employing someone officially.

What used to happen, around lincolnshire at least, is that jobs like fruit and veg picking, harvest work etc was filled by casual labour, be that people who didnt want or need full time work, or People picking up an extra few hours on a farm for some extra cash.

A whole economy, employing primarily british people, was wiped out over night, replaced by illegal gang masters, agency zero hour contracts with half the work “off the books” and so on and so on.

The minimum wage IS a good thing, a fair days pay for a fair days pay IS a good thing but it was implemented in such a way that it broke more than it fixed at that end of the market and the resulting illegal EU immigration is a result of that to plug the gaps that it created.

 

[Ballache]

It's not black or white. I'm an immigrant myself and for every 2 people like me (good job, pay taxes...) there's one that prefers to sit at home and do feck all. Unfortunately, them people get highlighted more by racist groups which brings them to the attention to the general public. All of a sudden it doesn't matter that 80% of immigrants in Sweden work and pay taxes. It's just the way it is unfortunately and I refuse to go around calling people racist for having an opinion on the matter.

 

[Stanley Road]

We were picking fruit for £2.90 an hour before mass EU immigration.

The whole problem goes right back to New Labour, the minimum wage, the benefits and tax credit system they introduced, and a whole other raft of policies they introduced that effectively priced British nationals out of those jobs and created a situation where they were only economically viable if they were filled by what is effectively imported slave labour.

Its not a good thing that there are a bunch of Polish and Bulgarian peasants flogging themselves into an early grave for pennies an hour, living ten to a room in illegally sub letted accomodation so we can have fruit and veg at a reasonable price.

Its a bad thing that a UK national cant go and prick fruit because the employer will have to pay them £7.83 an hour, plus pension and NIC contributions, plus all the other associated bollocks that goes with employing someone officially.

What used to happen, around lincolnshire at least, is that jobs like fruit and veg picking, harvest work etc was filled by casual labour, be that people who didnt want or need full time work, or People picking up an extra few hours on a farm for some extra cash.

A whole economy, employing primarily british people, was wiped out over night, replaced by illegal gang masters, agency zero hour contracts with half the work “off the books” and so on and so on.

The minimum wage IS a good thing, a fair days pay for a fair days pay IS a good thing but it was implemented in such a way that it broke more than it fixed at that end of the market and the resulting illegal EU immigration is a result of that to plug the gaps that it created.

Yes, i agree

 

[Kentonio]

We were picking fruit for £2.90 an hour before mass EU immigration.

The whole problem goes right back to New Labour, the minimum wage, the benefits and tax credit system they introduced, and a whole other raft of policies they introduced that effectively priced British nationals out of those jobs and created a situation where they were only economically viable if they were filled by what is effectively imported slave labour.

Its not a good thing that there are a bunch of Polish and Bulgarian peasants flogging themselves into an early grave for pennies an hour, living ten to a room in illegally sub letted accomodation so we can have fruit and veg at a reasonable price.

Its a bad thing that a UK national cant go and prick fruit because the employer will have to pay them £7.83 an hour, plus pension and NIC contributions, plus all the other associated bollocks that goes with employing someone officially.

What used to happen, around lincolnshire at least, is that jobs like fruit and veg picking, harvest work etc was filled by casual labour, be that people who didnt want or need full time work, or People picking up an extra few hours on a farm for some extra cash.

A whole economy, employing primarily british people, was wiped out over night, replaced by illegal gang masters, agency zero hour contracts with half the work “off the books” and so on and so on.

The minimum wage IS a good thing, a fair days pay for a fair days pay IS a good thing but it was implemented in such a way that it broke more than it fixed at that end of the market and the resulting illegal EU immigration is a result of that to plug the gaps that it created.

Except those EU workers aren’t getting paid ‘pennies an hour’, they’re working for the same minimum wage or above that a UK worker would be. British people aren’t picking fruit and veg because they don’t want to, not because there isn’t money in it. Countless companies are on the record saying they just can’t get UK workers to do those jobs, and when they do they tend to not work anywhere near as hard or not stay in the job very long.

 

[Rajma]

Except those EU workers aren’t getting paid ‘pennies an hour’, they’re working for the same minimum wage or above that a UK worker would be. British people aren’t picking fruit and veg because they don’t want to, not because there isn’t money in it. Countless companies are on the record saying they just can’t get UK workers to do those jobs, and when they do they tend to not work anywhere near as hard or not stay in the job very long.

Is correct, I know many people who seasonally go to UK for 'fruit picking' for few months and none of them works for less than that is defined as a minimum wage. However, it is true that these guys for the duration of their stay are accommodated in so called trailers, however, it is purely their choice as well given that they tend to pay very little for it. I agree though with the notion that by taking those jobs that average Brit wouldn't take for the same rate they are essentially putting the strain on potential wage increase in respective field.

 

[Ducklegs]

Except those EU workers aren’t getting paid ‘pennies an hour’, they’re working for the same minimum wage or above that a UK worker would be. British people aren’t picking fruit and veg because they don’t want to, not because there isn’t money in it. Countless companies are on the record saying they just can’t get UK workers to do those jobs, and when they do they tend to not work anywhere near as hard or not stay in the job very long.

Sorry but you havent got a clue.

I live in the heart of the area where it happens, My friends, my work collegues, my family were all part of the economy that fell apart when the illegal labour and dodgy agencies became the norm.

I mean you sit there and tell me thst British people wont do those jobs when we were doing those jobs quite happily for feck all money ourselves before the mass immigration started and the minimum wage killed a load of jobs stone dead.

Between 1995 and 1997 I worked in a chicken processing factory on alternating mornings and afternoons. As the morning shift was only 4 days of 12 hour shifts (@£4.25 an hour including shift bonus) i would pick up a spare 10 hour shift over at a vegtable processing plant at swineshead (18 miles away) for a whopping £3.50 an hour.

Almost entirely exclusively british workers at both sites, a high percentage of them women as well. Now you cant get a job at the chicken plant, as its exclusively through two agencies, on zero hour contracts and the Veg packing plant is exclusively for thise poor bastards who live in the caravan concentration camp on site.

I had a friend who was quite a succesful gang master who did everything above board (apart from some of his mileafe claims but who doesnt do that) he was put of business years ago because he couldnt compete with the rates the poles were prepared to work for, which was basically feck all.

My friend Marcin (A pole who Ive known for nealry 15 now who I worked with at a cold store) gave up his job as a manager of an electronic superstore over there to come and pick fruit up and down the country for a couple of quid an hour off the radar before he sorted himself out with a proper job driving a lorry (for feck all i might add, driving a class 2 for an a zero hour contract)

I had a class two license doing the same job, Marcin was loving it as he was averaging the equivalent of £8k more a year than he earnt managing the super store (a whopping £9k a year he was on over there) not only that he was living in shared house with 3 of the other drivers, so his living expenses were feck all. Where as I had a mortgage, two kids and all the expense that entailed so had to move on to a better paying more secure job.

Would I do those jobs again? No, would I feck, I got my act together and got managerial positions with Brakes, APC and DPD that paid two to three times as much. Marcin got his taxi license and has been doing school and airport runs ever since, and like most taxi drivers half of its not declared, but good on him he is happy and making it work.

Its as if you guys have a complete disconnect with the different things you talk about some times.

On the one hand, you point out the soaring house prices, the expense of renting a house, lack of social housing, petrol prices, council tax, water, gas and electric bills, price of food etc.

Then on the other hand you point out that the “lazy brits” wont do minimum wage zero hour veg packing jobs becuase its “beneath them”.

How about joining the dots and understanding why an EU peasant migrant (and thats not used as a derogatory term its what the vast majority of them are, originating from subsistsnce peasant economies) is prepared to work for those terms, and someone who actually has to pay their way simply cannot. How about joing the dots and understand why farms contract gangers who can provide three workers for the same price as on the books above board ganger can provide one.

That is absolutely the situation as it is today, so Ill appologise again in advance, but you know nack all about what goes on.

 

[Smores]

I think a lot of people get caught up in media driven narratives (largely bullshit) about faceless immigrants and fail to reconcile that with real life. They are unable to grasp the fact that these narratives are in fact bullshit.

Same has been happening with how Muslims are portrayed in the rag media.

Think that's a big part of it and the whole "we have to talk about immigration" thing doesn't help in emphasising it. My parents fall into the same viewpoint of applying racism generally but not to the individual, they also have no excuse as they lived in a very multicultural area. Now done the white flight thing.

I don't really see it with my generation as i don't think we have such cultural identity but most over 50 appear to me to scared of anything different. When its an immigrant in their world fine but when its a collective their world begins to be challenged.

Jobs etc are bollocks excuses that don't really impact those who spread mild racism.

 

[fishfingers15]

Sorry but you havent got a clue.

I live in the heart of the area where it happens, My friends, my work collegues, my family were all part of the economy that fell apart when the illegal labour and dodgy agencies became the norm.

I mean you sit there and tell me thst British people wont do those jobs when we were doing those jobs quite happily for feck all money ourselves before the mass immigration started and the minimum wage killed a load of jobs stone dead.

Between 1995 and 1997 I worked in a chicken processing factory on alternating mornings and afternoons. As the morning shift was only 4 days of 12 hour shifts (@£4.25 an hour including shift bonus) i would pick up a spare 10 hour shift over at a vegtable processing plant at swineshead (18 miles away) for a whopping £3.50 an hour.

Almost entirely exclusively british workers at both sites, a high percentage of them women as well. Now you cant get a job at the chicken plant, as its exclusively through two agencies, on zero hour contracts and the Veg packing plant is exclusively for thise poor bastards who live in the caravan concentration camp on site.

I had a friend who was quite a succesful gang master who did everything above board (apart from some of his mileafe claims but who doesnt do that) he was put of business years ago because he couldnt compete with the rates the poles were prepared to work for, which was basically feck all.

My friend Marcin (A pole who Ive known for nealry 15 now who I worked with at a cold store) gave up his job as a manager of an electronic superstore over there to come and pick fruit up and down the country for a couple of quid an hour off the radar before he sorted himself out with a proper job driving a lorry (for feck all i might add, driving a class 2 for an a zero hour contract)

I had a class two license doing the same job, Marcin was loving it as he was averaging the equivalent of £8k more a year than he earnt managing the super store (a whopping £9k a year he was on over there) not only that he was living in shared house with 3 of the other drivers, so his living expenses were feck all. Where as I had a mortgage, two kids and all the expense that entailed so had to move on to a better paying more secure job.

Would I do those jobs again? No, would I feck, I got my act together and got managerial positions with Brakes, APC and DPD that paid two to three times as much. Marcin got his taxi license and has been doing school and airport runs ever since, and like most taxi drivers half of its not declared, but good on him he is happy and making it work.

Its as if you guys have a complete disconnect with the different things you talk about some times.

On the one hand, you point out the soaring house prices, the expense of renting a house, lack of social housing, petrol prices, council tax, water, gas and electric bills, price of food etc.

Then on the other hand you point out that the “lazy brits” wont do minimum wage zero hour veg packing jobs becuase its “beneath them”.

How about joining the dots and understanding why an EU peasant migrant (and thats not used as a derogatory term its what the vast majority of them are, originating from subsistsnce peasant economies) is prepared to work for those terms, and someone who actually has to pay their way simply cannot. How about joing the dots and understand why farms contract gangers who can provide three workers for the same price as on the books above board ganger can provide one.

That is absolutely the situation as it is today, so Ill appologise again in advance, but you know nack all about what goes on.

Thank you for an insightful post.

 

[Jippy]

Just anecdotal:

My girlfreind's co-worker (a good friend) said that she was voting for brexit to "get rid of the immigrants".

When my girlfreind said she was an immigrant the response was "no not ones like you".

A lot of my family voted leave for basically that same reason and whenever my girlfriend points out that she's Spanish to them she gets the same "Oh not you, you're alright" response. Made family meals a lot more uncomfortable...

Exact same with my mum and my (brown) wife. ''She's one of the good ones', ie one she's actually got to know (and is a higher rate tax-payer).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Its as if you guys have a complete disconnect with the different things you talk about some times.

Great post. So true.

 

[Kentonio]

Sorry but you havent got a clue.

I live in the heart of the area where it happens, My friends, my work collegues, my family were all part of the economy that fell apart when the illegal labour and dodgy agencies became the norm.

I mean you sit there and tell me thst British people wont do those jobs when we were doing those jobs quite happily for feck all money ourselves before the mass immigration started and the minimum wage killed a load of jobs stone dead.

Between 1995 and 1997 I worked in a chicken processing factory on alternating mornings and afternoons. As the morning shift was only 4 days of 12 hour shifts (@£4.25 an hour including shift bonus) i would pick up a spare 10 hour shift over at a vegtable processing plant at swineshead (18 miles away) for a whopping £3.50 an hour.

Almost entirely exclusively british workers at both sites, a high percentage of them women as well. Now you cant get a job at the chicken plant, as its exclusively through two agencies, on zero hour contracts and the Veg packing plant is exclusively for thise poor bastards who live in the caravan concentration camp on site.

I had a friend who was quite a succesful gang master who did everything above board (apart from some of his mileafe claims but who doesnt do that) he was put of business years ago because he couldnt compete with the rates the poles were prepared to work for, which was basically feck all.

My friend Marcin (A pole who Ive known for nealry 15 now who I worked with at a cold store) gave up his job as a manager of an electronic superstore over there to come and pick fruit up and down the country for a couple of quid an hour off the radar before he sorted himself out with a proper job driving a lorry (for feck all i might add, driving a class 2 for an a zero hour contract)

I had a class two license doing the same job, Marcin was loving it as he was averaging the equivalent of £8k more a year than he earnt managing the super store (a whopping £9k a year he was on over there) not only that he was living in shared house with 3 of the other drivers, so his living expenses were feck all. Where as I had a mortgage, two kids and all the expense that entailed so had to move on to a better paying more secure job.

Would I do those jobs again? No, would I feck, I got my act together and got managerial positions with Brakes, APC and DPD that paid two to three times as much. Marcin got his taxi license and has been doing school and airport runs ever since, and like most taxi drivers half of its not declared, but good on him he is happy and making it work.

Its as if you guys have a complete disconnect with the different things you talk about some times.

On the one hand, you point out the soaring house prices, the expense of renting a house, lack of social housing, petrol prices, council tax, water, gas and electric bills, price of food etc.

Then on the other hand you point out that the “lazy brits” wont do minimum wage zero hour veg packing jobs becuase its “beneath them”.

How about joining the dots and understanding why an EU peasant migrant (and thats not used as a derogatory term its what the vast majority of them are, originating from subsistsnce peasant economies) is prepared to work for those terms, and someone who actually has to pay their way simply cannot. How about joing the dots and understand why farms contract gangers who can provide three workers for the same price as on the books above board ganger can provide one.

That is absolutely the situation as it is today, so Ill appologise again in advance, but you know nack all about what goes on.

On one hand you’re talking about dodgy cnuts paying illegal wages. Sure, that happens, and i’d never claim it doesn’t. However I’ve worked (albeit briefly) in a warehouse with the Poles and Eastern Europeans, and seen first hand how those jobs are being filled with immigrants because when they hired English lads they pissed about, had no interest in being there, and were about 25% as productive as most of the Poles or Romanians. That was agency work paying minimum wage, but the English lads didn’t have anything better, they just didn’t give a feck. The job centre had told them they had to apply for jobs, they’d been given a job, and they didn’t want to do it. The turnover was obscene, some of them didn’t even last a week.

You want to talk about zero hour contracts, and I’ll be right there on your side. They’re a fecking abomination and have no place in a civilized country. At the same time though I’m not going to buy into some bollocks about how English people were driven out of jobs that I’ve seen myself they don’t even want. Anecdotal evidence is worth feck all anyway, but when the people running fruit and veg picking companies are saying exactly the same things that I saw with my own eyes, I’m going to believe them.