BBC Panorama: Immigration

[Adisa]

Watched this earlier. Rees-Mogg made the most students brain dead comment.
The ignorance of these people.
I'd appreciate it more if they simply said they don't like immigrants.

 

[esmufc07]

It's amazing how something so blindingly obvious leaves so many people shocked or 'stumped'.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Old people in closet racism shocker.

 

[Sweet Square]

No surprise at all. But this type of argument(Who does all the jobs if we stop immigration)is very counter productive to both us(Immigrates) and British workers.

 

[Brwned]

Old people in closet racism shocker.

Weird takeout. I found it kind of surprising that folks who didn't hesitate to say immigration needs cutting were also full of praise for immigrants in their area. It doesn't fit particularly well with the idea that they're racists. Even ignorant seems harsh. Scared about strangers more than anything else. Which is a natural instinct that only gets intensified with the silly rhetoric on both sides.

 

[Mozza]

You might not be rude enough to be racist to your black neighbour but if you think bad of every other black person you are still a racist

 

[Red Defence]

Immigrants are white as well as black you know.

 

[Minimalist]

There was fella who rang into LBC a lot of weeks ago and told James O'Brien he was tired of seeing foreign people working in hospitals and that's why he voted for Brexit.

He's in for a shock when he realises the Phillipines isn't in Europe.

 

[Dumbstar]

Immigrants are white as well as black you know.

One of the people on the video was asked what sort of immigrants would you allow in then? And you could see it etched in every freckle on his face he wanted to say "white" but was holding it back.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Weird takeout. I found it kind of surprising that folks who didn't hesitate to say immigration needs cutting were also full of praise for immigrants in their area. It doesn't fit particularly well with the idea that they're racists. Even ignorant seems harsh. Scared about strangers more than anything else. Which is a natural instinct that only gets intensified with the silly rhetoric on both sides.

They’re being interviewed on tv they aren’t going to straight up say “nah there all *insert expletive * around here” are they. Wheras it’s becoming more and more the norm nowadays to openly be against immigration without actually having a reason why, as summed up by the answers or lack there of when questioned.

Come on, we all know the type, my uncles exactly the same “bloody foreigners” blah blah type, they have no problem with the actual immigrants in their local area they socialise with but for no other reason than predjudices they don’t want any more “of them”.

 

[Brwned]

They’re being interviewed on tv they aren’t going to straight up say “nah there all *insert expletive * around here” are they. Wheras it’s becoming more and more the norm nowadays to openly be against immigration without actually having a reason why, as summed up by the answers or lack there of when questioned.

Come on, we all know the type, my uncles exactly the same “bloody foreigners” blah blah type, they have no problem with the actual immigrants in their local area they socialise with but for no other reason than predjudices they don’t want any more “of them”.

Yes I do know those people. My mum said a few months ago that people must feel really safe when they come to Belfast because all they see is white people. That is legitimately what she said. I would understand if you would call that a racist view. I can say unequivocally she isn't racist, and she meant it in the most sincere way.

In this case, you're making a number of huge leaps. First you're equating xenophobia with racism. And if I wanted to make the same leaps, I could call you a bigot for making that leap. A xenophobe is not necessarily a racist.

I don't think you're a bigot though. You're just uncomfortable with those sorts of people. In the same way they're uncomfortable with those sorts of people. There is a good reason for that, with evidence supporting an inverse relationship between social cohesion and immigration. Social cohesion is something that is very much worth fighting for in a broader sense and on a personal level it is something that people feel, without being able to understand or explain.

We're quite quick to label that as xenophobia but I don't think it is. And placing that all on the individuals while ignoring the social constructs that exacerbate it seems quite self-serving. It is nice to feel like you're better than other people in fairness. Especially when you're looking down on people because they think they're better than other people.

 

[Adisa]

Yes I do know those people. My mum said a few months ago that people must feel really safe when they come to Belfast because all they see is white people. That is legitimately what she said. I would understand if you would call that a racist view. I can say unequivocally she isn't racist, and she meant it in the most sincere way.

WTF is that supposed to mean?
People are prejudiced if the feel unsafe simply because there are more people of another race within their vicinity.

 

[Pexbo]

WTF is that supposed to mean?
People are prejudiced if the feel unsafe simply because there are more people of another race within their vicinity.

His mum said it so it can’t be a racist comment because she’s not racist.

 

[Brwned]

WTF is that supposed to mean?
People are prejudiced if the feel unsafe simply because there are more people of another race within their vicinity.

It meant that she has picked up on the consistent media reports that imply a direct link between race / religion and threat levels, and she has no personal experiences to draw upon that refute them. Belfast is not very multicultural. So the only exposure she ever has to Arab people, for example, is when they pop into the news cycle in another terrorist act. It is not unreasonable for people in that position to make that link instinctively. If the media tried to provide a balanced perspective on the world then you'd see a lot less misinformed people.

Obviously these people should be educated, and I think ridicule is an entirely useful thing in this scenario. But calling them racists is both counter-productive and ignorant.

 

[Adisa]

It meant that she has picked up on the consistent media reports that imply a direct link between race / religion and threat levels, and she has no personal experiences to draw upon that refute them. Belfast is not very multicultural. So the only exposure she ever has to Arab people, for example, is when they pop into the news cycle in another terrorist act. It is not unreasonable for people in that position to make that link instinctively. If the media tried to provide a balanced perspective on the world then you'd see a lot less misinformed people.

Obviously these people should be educated, and I think ridicule is an entirely useful thing in this scenario. But calling them racists is both counter-productive and ignorant.

I don't think you understand. It's a racist view but that doesn't mean she's responsible for it. As you said, she has no personal experiences, only what she picks up in the media. That process has left her with what can only be described as a racist view.
It doesn't mean she's not sincere, isn't a nice person and racist.

 

[Brwned]

I don't think you understand. It's a racist view but that doesn't mean she's responsible for it. As you said, she has no personal experiences, only what she picks up in the media. That process has left her with what can only be described as a racist view.
It doesn't mean she's not sincere, isn't a nice person and racist.

We weren't talking about whether it was racism. Like I said in the post you quoted, I understand why you think it is. But you asked me what it meant and I explained it. There's no misunderstanding there. If you were asking a different question maybe you should have, you know, asked a different question.

I think there's quite a lot of evidence that everyone is prejudiced, by your definition. In-group bias has been found in cultures all over the world, and has been extrapolated out to apply directly to race, religion, etc. In which case the labels seem a bit self-serving to me when you're talking about people like that. These highly charged labels are supposed to mean something. Often they're just used to make people feel self-righteous.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

We weren't talking about whether it was racism. Like I said in the post you quoted, I understand why you think it is. But you asked me what it meant and I explained it. There's no misunderstanding there. If you were asking a different question maybe you should have, you know, asked a different question.

I think there's quite a lot of evidence that everyone is prejudiced, by your definition. In-group bias has been found in cultures all over the world, and has been extrapolated out to apply directly to race, religion, etc. In which case the labels seem a bit self-serving to me when you're talking about people like that. These highly charged labels are supposed to mean something. Often they're just used to make people feel self-righteous.

Indeed. There is some evidence that homogeneous communities are happier as well. Northern Irish communities being a case in point. It is natural to feel 'safer' when your way of life is not threatened (or at least perceived to be) and when you feel a stronger connection with your neighbours.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37497435

It seems that taking steps to bridging understanding and communities would be better than mud slinging and demonising, surely that only encourages people to be reinforced in those views?

 

[Mozza]

Immigrants are white as well as black you know.

I know. But the racists tend to target the darker ones because they are idiots

 

[Pexbo]

I know. But the racists tend to target the darker ones because they are idiots

That’s racist

 

[GloryHunter07]

Just anecdotal:

My girlfreind's co-worker (a good friend) said that she was voting for brexit to "get rid of the immigrants".

When my girlfreind said she was an immigrant the response was "no not ones like you".

 

[Kentonio]

Yes I do know those people. My mum said a few months ago that people must feel really safe when they come to Belfast because all they see is white people. That is legitimately what she said. I would understand if you would call that a racist view. I can say unequivocally she isn't racist, and she meant it in the most sincere way.

Sorry, but her meaning it sincerely makes it more racist, not less.

Btw, calling racist things racist is not ‘ignorant’ it’s ‘accurate’.

 

[sun_tzu]

Just anecdotal:

My girlfreind's co-worker (a good friend) said that she was voting for brexit to "get rid of the immigrants".

When my girlfreind said she was an immigrant the response was "no not ones like you".

well probably a less awkward conversation than if her co worker had said - yeah exactly

 

[vodrake]

Just anecdotal:

My girlfreind's co-worker (a good friend) said that she was voting for brexit to "get rid of the immigrants".

When my girlfreind said she was an immigrant the response was "no not ones like you".

A lot of my family voted leave for basically that same reason and whenever my girlfriend points out that she's Spanish to them she gets the same "Oh not you, you're alright" response. Made family meals a lot more uncomfortable...

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

There's problems with immigration that the left just lazily labels 'racism', which is one factor but there's other issues at play.

Firstly the 'where is the workers who'll do these jobs' is nonsense. We don't train and develop our workforce, whether direct in work training or apprenticeships. Instead of needing to train an employee businesses hire someone who's been trained in Eastern Europe. If you want workers with skillsets be prepared to train them.

Bringing in more workers increases the supply of labour and supresses wages. This alongside the lack of training means less pay.

Bringing in more workers increases the stress on schools, hospitals and other public services. Especially when teachers have to try and teach pupils who can't speak English and have to juggle them alongside other pupils who suffer. Now this is a successive government failure to increase investment in public services to accomodate extra immigrants.

The lack of house building alongside a growing population from immigration means increases in the cost of housing or mortgages for everyone, reducing the general populations real wealth.

That's all simple economics and you can blame government policy that wants the benefits of immigrant labour and their tax income, while not investing that back into house building and public services.

And that's all before we get into the serious issues of lack of integration and anti social behaviour from various immigrant populations. And the fact that the change in population demographics has never been like this in the past.

 

[GloryHunter07]

A lot of my family voted leave for basically that same reason and whenever my girlfriend points out that she's Spanish to them she gets the same "Oh not you, you're alright" response. Made family meals a lot more uncomfortable...

Doesnt surprise me, i feel terrible for your gf though!

Sounds like they voted to get rid of the wrong "type" of immigrants.

 

[Kentonio]

There's problems with immigration that the left just lazily labels 'racism', which is one factor but there's other issues at play.

Firstly the 'where is the workers who'll do these jobs' is nonsense. We don't train and develop our workforce, whether direct in work training or apprenticeships. Instead of needing to train an employee businesses hire someone who's been trained in Eastern Europe. If you want workers with skillsets be prepared to train them.

Bringing in more workers increases the supply of labour and supresses wages. This alongside the lack of training means less pay.

Bringing in more workers increases the stress on schools, hospitals and other public services. Especially when teachers have to try and teach pupils who can't speak English and have to juggle them alongside other pupils who suffer. Now this is a successive government failure to increase investment in public services to accomodate extra immigrants.

The lack of house building alongside a growing population from immigration means increases in the cost of housing or mortgages for everyone, reducing the general populations real wealth.

That's all simple economics and you can blame government policy that wants the benefits of immigrant labour and their tax income, while not investing that back into house building and public services.

And that's all before we get into the serious issues of lack of integration and anti social behaviour from various immigrant populations. And the fact that the change in population demographics has never been like this in the past.

Which all sounds great until you look at national statistics and find they don’t actually support most of those claims.

 

[Stanley Road]

Maybe UK will see the salaries of the lowly paid actually go up if there is competition to get staff. Price of British fruit will soar as no-one will be picking it for 2.90 an hour.

 

[GloryHunter07]

There's problems with immigration that the left just lazily labels 'racism', which is one factor but there's other issues at play.

Firstly the 'where is the workers who'll do these jobs' is nonsense. We don't train and develop our workforce, whether direct in work training or apprenticeships. Instead of needing to train an employee businesses hire someone who's been trained in Eastern Europe. If you want workers with skillsets be prepared to train them.

This is definitely a problem in the UK and probably explains the lack of productivity growth.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Yes I do know those people. My mum said a few months ago that people must feel really safe when they come to Belfast because all they see is white people. That is legitimately what she said. I would understand if you would call that a racist view. I can say unequivocally she isn't racist, and she meant it in the most sincere way.

In this case, you're making a number of huge leaps. First you're equating xenophobia with racism. And if I wanted to make the same leaps, I could call you a bigot for making that leap. A xenophobe is not necessarily a racist.

I don't think you're a bigot though. You're just uncomfortable with those sorts of people. In the same way they're uncomfortable with those sorts of people. There is a good reason for that, with evidence supporting an inverse relationship between social cohesion and immigration. Social cohesion is something that is very much worth fighting for in a broader sense and on a personal level it is something that people feel, without being able to understand or explain.

We're quite quick to label that as xenophobia but I don't think it is. And placing that all on the individuals while ignoring the social constructs that exacerbate it seems quite self-serving. It is nice to feel like you're better than other people in fairness. Especially when you're looking down on people because they think they're better than other people.

Nah, you can say unequivocally you don't want her to be a racist because she's your mum, but you can't just pop out an example of your mum saying something racist, provide no counter examples of her doing anything to suggest that she isn't racist, and then get a bit upset that people are calling a spade a spade based on what you've told them. Yes she's probably got that opinion from a lack of exposure to diversity and negative reenforcement from the media, but she's her own person and has agency for her own actions.

Maybe you've got a body of evidence with your mum to prove that this was just a one off, unfortunate expression, but it seems a slightly odd defence to argue that the person saying racist things is only saying them because they've got them from the media. Why would that stop her from being racist?

Fwiw my grandad often comes out with racist remarks including a comment he made about my brother's girlfriend I can't even bring myself to tell my brother about. Why? Because he is a racist.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Indeed. There is some evidence that homogeneous communities are happier as well. Northern Irish communities being a case in point. It is natural to feel 'safer' when your way of life is not threatened (or at least perceived to be) and when you feel a stronger connection with your neighbours.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37497435

It seems that taking steps to bridging understanding and communities would be better than mud slinging and demonising, surely that only encourages people to be reinforced in those views?

It goes back to the age old adage that the secret to happiness is low ambition and lower expectations or less greed depending on how you view it.

 

[ivaldo]

It goes back to the age old adage that the secret to happiness is low ambition and lower expectations or less greed depending on how you view it.

To quote the late, great Tolkien: "It is no bad thing celebrating a simple life."

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

Which all sounds great until you look at national statistics and find they don’t actually support most of those claims.

Those claims are all fully supported. The NHS being on it's knees in any measure. School places being oversubscribed more so than any time in history and funding in real terms per pupil down. The average income versus rent/house price ratio is the worst it's been in modern history. Real incomes down too according to this:

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-have-wages-changed/

Year on year for decades we've built less houses than we've had people coming here. A simple demand curve reflects the reality that house prices and rents have grown above inflation year on year.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Those claims are all fully supported. The NHS being on it's knees in any measure. School places being oversubscribed more so than any time in history and funding in real terms per pupil down. The average income versus rent/house price ratio is the worst it's been in modern history. Real incomes down too according to this:

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-have-wages-changed/

Year on year for decades we've built less houses than we've had people coming here. A simple demand curve reflects the reality that house prices and rents have grown above inflation year on year.

Your claim is that these things are due to immigration though, not that these things are happening. Your source doesn't address that at all.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Those claims are all fully supported. The NHS being on it's knees in any measure. School places being oversubscribed more so than any time in history and funding in real terms per pupil down. The average income versus rent/house price ratio is the worst it's been in modern history. Real incomes down too according to this:

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-have-wages-changed/

Year on year for decades we've built less houses than we've had people coming here. A simple demand curve reflects the reality that house prices and rents have grown above inflation year on year.

Cutting imigration is not necesarily the correct response to those problems however..

 

[Cheesy]

Just anecdotal:

My girlfreind's co-worker (a good friend) said that she was voting for brexit to "get rid of the immigrants".

When my girlfreind said she was an immigrant the response was "no not ones like you".

I actually think attitudes like this are quite common. I've heard plenty of people put across fairly hostile views to immigration, but for the most part those people will generally be fine with, say, their cousin's foreign wife, or their local Chinese takeaway owner, or their urban professional French next door neighbour, or the guy who owns an Italian restaurant they like a lot. People often seem to be fine with individual immigrants, but it's when they think of that generalised 'other' they start to become a lot more wary and hostile to immigration.

I remember in the lead-up to Trump's election there was an article which explained this heightened phenomenon in the US: a lot of rural Republican voters who'd have questionable views weren't/aren't really disparaging to individual minorities in their community, but were instead a lot warier of urban African American communities that they were mostly unaccustomed with. The general takeaway was that people were fine with racial minorities/immigrants so long as they were a substantially minority group who adapted completely to their way of life. Once they perceive/d a threat, that starts to change and they become a lot more hostile, even if the things that have changed in their lives have nothing to do with immigration or minority groups whatsoever.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

Your claim is that these things are due to immigration though, not that these things are happening. Your source doesn't address that at all.

You need to read up on supply and demand curves. If there's more people without an increased supply of services prices rise. If there's more people with the same amount of jobs, wages drop. To deny that is to deny basic maths.

Cutting imigration is not necesarily the correct response to those problems however..

No and I'm not necessarily claiming it is. I'm stating governments need to address the issues it's causing, ie build more homes, invest more in public services, invest more in training and apprenticeship schemes. If you have 250k immigrants coming into the country a year at least build 250k new homes and add 250k school places/hospital beds

 

[NinjaFletch]

You need to read up on supply and demand curves. If there's more people without an increased supply of services prices rise. If there's more people with the same amount of jobs, wages drop. To deny that is to deny basic maths.

No. You need to stop pretending like complex, intertwined, deep set issues can be explained so simplistically.

If you're going to claim that immigration is the primary driver, let alone the only driver, of these issues you're talking about then source your claims.

If you're just going to respond with patronising drivel about basic maths then I'm just going to assume you're talking out of your arse.

Besides, your whole argument rests on a series of flawed assumptions that immigration is what is causing an increase in demand in every instance.

 

[GloryHunter07]

No and I'm not necessarily claiming it is. I'm stating governments need to address the issues it's causing, ie build more homes, invest more in public services, invest more in training and apprenticeship schemes. If you have 250k immigrants coming into the country a year at least build 250k new homes and add 250k school places/hospital beds

Completely agree with you there. But it is easier for the government to do nothing then blame everything on the EU and foreign boogeyman.

 

[Brwned]

Sorry, but her meaning it sincerely makes it more racist, not less.

Btw, calling racist things racist is not ‘ignorant’ it’s ‘accurate’.

I agree that the level of sincerity intensifies things. That's all predicated on whether you interpret the initial intentions and actions to be racist in nature, though. Which was the point of discussion. Which you knew if you read the follow-up. So either you did and you ignored it, or you didn't, because you read what you wanted to read and then decided to make a point that you felt really had to be made.

Do you feel better about calling a stranger a racist?

Nah, you can say unequivocally you don't want her to be a racist because she's your mum, but you can't just pop out an example of your mum saying something racist, provide no counter examples of her doing anything to suggest that she isn't racist, and then get a bit upset that people are calling a spade a spade based on what you've told them. Yes she's probably got that opinion from a lack of exposure to diversity and negative reenforcement from the media, but she's her own person and has agency for her own actions.

Maybe you've got a body of evidence with your mum to prove that this was just a one off, unfortunate expression, but it seems a slightly odd defence to argue that the person saying racist things is only saying them because they've got them from the media. Why would that stop her from being racist?

Fwiw my grandad often comes out with racist remarks including a comment he made about my brother's girlfriend I can't even bring myself to tell my brother about. Why? Because he is a racist.

I don't think the cause of those intentions (in this case, the media) would decide whether it's racist or not. Nor am I upset that people called her a racist. I said in the same post you quoted, the very first point I made, that I would understand if someone deems that to be racist. I'm not trying to prove to you that my mum isn't a racist. You must surely understand how little I care about making that point to a bunch of strangers about someone they will never know.

To me this is the problem with the discussion. It's so charged and people get so indignant about it that it just becomes a battle of attrition and a shouting competition. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the issue or the validity of the arguments.

 

[JPRouve]

No. You need to stop pretending like complex, intertwined, deep set issues can be explained so simplistically.

If you're going to claim that immigration is the primary driver, let alone the only driver, of these issues you're talking about then source your claims.

If you're just going to respond with patronising drivel about basic maths then I'm just going to assume you're talking out of your arse.

Besides, your whole argument rests on a series of flawed assumptions that immigration is what is causing an increase in demand in every instance.

Just to help your argument.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox....ngs/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/