Baseball..

I get sick about all this talk about how great Barry Bonds is. Then I get sicker when people actuall believe Barry Frecking Larkin is better then barry bonds. Lets get real and stop judging the player on his off the field manner.

All Steriod talk aside:
I dont like him either and with the lone exception of the 2002 playoffs hes been a major failure in the post season. But Numbers are Numbers my god he hit 73 homeruns one year to break the record then the next he hit 370 to win his batting title. He is not the overall player he used to be but at 40 he still is the best hitter in the game.

Is he the greatest of all time? IMO that honor still stays with Ruth. He was the top pitcher of his era until he was sent to the Yankees then he became the dominate player of the century.

Jeter is in a different catagory he is like Yogi or munson. great leaders who always give everything. No other shortstop in recent history comes close.
Jeter is the type of player who could have a career average of under 300 less then 3000 hits and no other remarkable stats and still be a first ballot hall of famer. Does this make him better then bonds???????? who knows.
 
do you think Ortiz's reaction after he got hit by Ted Lilly was a bit over the line? I do, to me, he's kinda arrogant
 
Ortiz thinks he's a thug so he's gotta act all hard up.

Most baseball players are arrogant and I've never understood that. It's one of the sports that requires less physical exertion or skill than other sports and I played it from age 6 through 20something. Fun game, but quite boring to watch in person or on tv. And all MLB players are greedy, which has ruined the game for me.

I don't understand why every batter thinks a pitcher is intentionally throwing at him. Jason Kendall went way over the top the other night too. He leaned into a pitch to get hit then was pissed that the pitcher complained to the umpire and for no reason went after the pitcher. The pitcher picked Kendall up and slammed him down. LOL. I just don't get the rage...maybe it's steriods.
 
Jens said:
controversial opinion, does any 1b deserve to get a golden glove? whats the big difference between a dh and 1b? the dh does nothing defensively, the 1b does next to feck all bar catching a few balls and a few pop ups .... ironically albert pujols probably is my favorite player in the majors right now.
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They give the Gold Glove for every fielding position, including pitcher, so you can't leave them out. If you saw great fielding first basemen - like Kieth Hernandez and Don Mattingly - you would appreciate how much of a difference a great fielding 1B can make. Especially if you compare them to butchers at 1B like Giambi (NY) or Ortiz (Bos). DHs just hit. Both leagues would probably have them, but it adds another salary to a team and the NL owners don't want that.
 
kennyj said:
They give the Gold Glove for every fielding position, including pitcher, so you can't leave them out. If you saw great fielding first basemen - like Kieth Hernandez and Don Mattingly - you would appreciate how much of a difference a great fielding 1B can make. Especially if you compare them to butchers at 1B like Giambi (NY) or Ortiz (Bos). DHs just hit. Both leagues would probably have them, but it adds another salary to a team and the NL owners don't want that.
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it was more tongue in cheek, kenny. i know the job of a dh and a 1b, but i simply cant think of any above average defensive 1b right now. mattingly and hernandez were well before my time and im not a huge baseball fan anyway. do you think signing giambi was a mistake, btw?
 
Jens said:
it was more tongue in cheek, kenny. i know the job of a dh and a 1b, but i simply cant think of any above average defensive 1b right now. mattingly and hernandez were well before my time and im not a huge baseball fan anyway. do you think signing giambi was a mistake, btw?
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You should know I wouldn't get sarcasm. ;) There's nobody I can think of as good defensively as Mattingly and Hernandez. I like Giambi. He's had some injuries and recently had a parasite of all things, but the Yanks couldn't anticipate those things when they signed him. I'm still hopeful that he'll be back this year to help out in the playoffs, but I read today that he has a groing pull which will set him back. He should be back hitting in a few days.
 
I can name a few slick fielding 1B...JT Snow, Derek Lee, Doug Mientkiewicz, John Olerud. Todd Helton has a won a few GGs though his offensive skills might sway a few voters (unfortunate).

Mark Grace was an oustanding fielder, some say he was right up there with Keith Hernandez in the last 30 years. Will Clark was very solid as well, but spent many years runner up behind Grace (GG in '91).
 
Sorry to go off the subject but is Baseball America's number1 sport or is it American football or Basketball, is Ice hockey big?
 
Red Sea said:
Sorry to go off the subject but is Baseball America's number1 sport or is it American football or Basketball, is Ice hockey big?
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Football is probably number one right now, partially because so many people bet on it one way or another. Baseball is probably number two, then basketball or maybe NASCAR. Hockey is down. I like it, but the NHL can't even get a decent TV contract. Baseball is probably number one in attendence because each team plays 162 games and each NFL team plays only 16.
 
Red Sea said:
Sorry to go off the subject but is Baseball America's number1 sport or is it American football or Basketball, is Ice hockey big?
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NFL is first in a big way...with Baseball coming in second and steadily regaining it's popularity. The NBA is bigger than the NHL...but both are utter shite now. The playoffs for both are great...but you have to get through their meandering regular seasons just to get there. Not really worth following until the end of their respective seasons.
 
TheDevil'sOwn said:
NFL is first in a big way...with Baseball coming in second and steadily regaining it's popularity. The NBA is bigger than the NHL...but both are utter shite now. The playoffs for both are great...but you have to get through their meandering regular seasons just to get there. Not really worth following until the end of their respective seasons.
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Thanks!
 
kennyj said:
Football is probably number one right now, partially because so many people bet on it one way or another. Baseball is probably number two, then basketball or maybe NASCAR. Hockey is down. I like it, but the NHL can't even get a decent TV contract. Baseball is probably number one in attendence because each team plays 162 games and each NFL team plays only 16.
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Thanks!
 
MrMarcello said:
Bonds does not steal bases with regularity these days. But somehow he managed to become the only player with 500 steals and 500 homeruns. He's not as great defensively as he was 10 years ago, but during the 90s, he was hands down the best defensive LF in the game. Looking at his hitting numbers alone is not the sole basis, but add in his all-around accomplishments, he's proven himself amongst the best of alltime. You mentioned 5 pitchers during the 60s that Bonds did not face. How could he have faced them? Does the fact that ARod, Ripken, Sosa, etc, not facing those greats, or current pitchers of equivalent comparison, dwindle their accomplishments?

You also didn't mention the intentional walks to Bonds. Surely the fact that pitchers pitch around Bonds or walk him intentionally (and unintentionally) must point to the fact that he's a feared hitter, further emphasizing his greatness. No other hitter come close to this type of approach from opposing managers.

I :lol: at anyone that labels Sammy Sosa a great all-around player. He's an average defensive RF. He never steals bases (did back in the early 90s though), strikes out too much, and is the prototypical "homerun or strike out" guy. He will be a HOFer and in my opinion deserves so. But Sosa did cheat and was caught. I can only imagine the ridicule and lingering doubt had Bonds used a corked bat in a game, which surely would be included in your argument againgst Bonds. :rolleyes:

Gold gloves are won more often than not by deserving players. Pudge, Ozzie Smith, Vizquel, etc, were the best at their position defensively and in some cases offensively. Palmerio winning the GG in 1999 was a joke. JT Snow winning a GG at 1B is not, even though his offensive numbers are average.

Simply put, if Bonds was the nice guy with big smile like Sosa or the consumate professional like Ripken (who's streak is one of the most overstated 'records' in MLB) or big teddy bear like McGwire, there would be so little negativity about him. But he's labeled as arrogant and being uptight, so the media/fans try to discredit him. He's the best of our generaton, bar none.
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Again...you've not seemed to have grasped that I agree with Bonds easily being the best offensive player of our generation...as I've said before. But I don't agree that he was/is the best baseball player of our generation. That's utter bollocks. Was Barry ever known for having the greatest arm? The best glove man? Kevin Mitchell won an MVP playing LF for the Giants...and he was terrible in the field. Too much credence is given to offensive numbers when talking about best players. I'm not sure that the number of defensive awards for being the best offensive player at a particular position qualifies you as being the best all-around. That fat sack Tony Gwynn
won 5 GG...and it wasn't because he could motor all over the grass. Best hitter of our generation got him those 5 GGs in LF for San Diego. And 4 of Bonds' GGs were won with a CF in his team winning the same award. He should thank Andy Van Slyke and Darren Freaking Lewis personally for carrying him to those. You'll also notice he hasn't won one since '98...but why let that get in the way of him being recognized as the greatest all-around player of our time.

He doesn't lead his current team. He's never won a championship. He has continually failed in the post-season, bar one series against the Angels. He doesn't contribute defensively. He hits, hits for power, walks, and gets himself on-base. And that makes him the greatest player of our time? Refute those facts and I'll think about changing my mind and leaving it at your "end of." He sounds more like Edgar Martinez with a HR record.

I never gave Bonds grief for his "alleged" doping...as I didn't hold it against Sosa for outright cheating. Not when it comes to career achievements. But if you're going to get on Sosa for using the corked bat...than you better be able to hold Bonds accountable for the grotesque physical growth of his enormous head (sign of steroid use), BALCO ties, and amazing growth of overall muscle mass post 30 years of age. Of course Sosa should be labeled a cheater...but to assume Bonds isn't doping is laughable. You can't just label one a cheater to support you discrediting him...but then not even bring it up when it comes to the very definition of cheating in the game, #25.

And to call Ripken's record "overstated"...that's borderline ridiculous. He NEVER missed a game. He played SS or 3B that entire time. It isn't like your 9-5 job. He was the greatest ever SS and he played what amounted to 16 straight 162 game seasons. Playing injured...playing on bad teams...winning a championship...he did it all. But that's "overstated." And Bonds hitting 73 home runs in one season is a much harder and greater accomplishment? How many times in the past 5-7 years has 61 homeruns been surpassed by players? And is there any coincidence that it came with expansion, smaller parks, and increased drug use? You can't hide at SS, like you can in a batter box, wearing body armor...errm..."an elbow pad" and leaning over the plate with no fear of getting hit with a pitch because of your "pad" and shin/ankle/foot kevlar shell-piece. Do me a favor.

Baseball players play baseball...they don't just hit.
 
manufanatic said:
I get sick about all this talk about how great Barry Bonds is. Then I get sicker when people actuall believe Barry Frecking Larkin is better then barry bonds. Lets get real and stop judging the player on his off the field manner.

All Steriod talk aside:
I dont like him either and with the lone exception of the 2002 playoffs hes been a major failure in the post season. But Numbers are Numbers my god he hit 73 homeruns one year to break the record then the next he hit 370 to win his batting title. He is not the overall player he used to be but at 40 he still is the best hitter in the game.

Is he the greatest of all time? IMO that honor still stays with Ruth. He was the top pitcher of his era until he was sent to the Yankees then he became the dominate player of the century.

Jeter is in a different catagory he is like Yogi or munson. great leaders who always give everything. No other shortstop in recent history comes close.
Jeter is the type of player who could have a career average of under 300 less then 3000 hits and no other remarkable stats and still be a first ballot hall of famer. Does this make him better then bonds???????? who knows.
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Barry Larkin is a better SS than Bonds is a LF, hitting included. He's proved that throughout his career and won 2 championships while he was at it. But, of course, "numbers are numbers." If you hold that to be a measuring stick of a great player...then there's no point continuing the discussion with you. Brady Anderson hit 50 HRs in 1996. Bonds hit 42. Of the two...who was the best player that year? Think carefully before you answer that. You do have those "numbers" to consider, afterall.

Ruth would be the greatest player of his generation...Mays of his...I don't know about right now...it would've been Griffey had he stayed healthy...but it looks like it will be A. Rodriguez.

And you putting Jeter in a "different" category is exactly my point. That category is a guy who produces offensively, produces defensively, is a leader on a winning team, wins championships, and is the very definition of a baseball player. He didn't lead the league in just a couple of offensive categories and get lifted onto the shoulders of the statheads of the world. He plays the game...and he plays it right. Just as Berra and Munson and Larkin did/do. Bonds is the one who is in a "different" category...he lacks those qualities...and you admitted it yourself without even recognizing it.

The fact Barry is a cnut on the field...well, off the field, too...he and Kent wouldn't have tried to choke each other in the dugout during the middle of a game if that weren't the case...further illustrates the point that he isn't a great teammate or a team leader. And you wonder why his team can't ever rally behind him and play for him and him for them. His popularity, or lack thereof, with the media is irrelevant. I don't think he's an all-around great player because I watch the game and see his defensive shortcomings and his lack of clubhouse leadership...but now that's considered being "misunderstood?" Because he's a complete cnut? Sosa and McGwire aren't any better players because they're media-friendly and nice. They're just more popular. How that correlates into Bonds not being recognized as a great overall player needs to be explained to me. He isn't a great overall player...because...HE ISN'T. Great offensively...always questionable defensively. And he still couldn't throw out 106 yr. old Sid Bream from deep short when he needed to the most. Add bottler to that, too.

It would do some of you lot good to watch a season or two, so you have an idea of what the game is about, before you post...and not just catch highlights on ESPN's "Baseball Tonight."
 
hey people in toronto or people wishing to go to skydome for the oakland vs. Jays series.... - wanna go the Oakland A vs. Blue Jays game?..got 2 spare tickets - aisle 239, row 7, seats 106 and 105, originally $21, and now $30 for 2, who's in?..oh.. that's a friday night game.. Sept 3rd, 2004
 
Barry Bonds hits his 700th career home run... what a record he's holding now..
 
Jacqueline_S said:
Barry Bonds hits his 700th career home run... what a record he's holding now..
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Just amazing. Highly respected analysts like Peter Gammons and Tim Kurkjian are considering Bonds as the best hitter in MLB history. Hard to deny those accolades. The stats and overall play speak for him. For me, it's a toss up between Bonds, Babe Ruth, and Ted Williams (with apologies to Hank Aaron and Willie Mays). Williams lost 5 years to military service during his prime, or he'd most likely have reached 3,500 hits and maybe 700 homeruns, as well as probably setting the runs scored, runs batted in, and walks records. An interesting note on Williams that I never had heard about.

In '35, the Yankee's Bill Essick, offered Ted $200 a month to sign with the Yank's, but Ted's mother, May Williams, declined the offer. She didn't want her 17-year old son to move so far away and leave his studies incomplete. So, Ted continued to play semi-pro baseball and earned three dollars a week.

Could you have imagined Ted in the OF with Joe D and later Mantle? :eek:
 
Sorry Marcello

Bonds is a great hitter and a great home run hitter. But the greatest hitter of all time was Ted Williams, and that is a 33 year old Lived my whole life in New York was at the game when Chambliss won the pennant in 76 as a five year old die hard Yankee fan talking. ;) Williams was the best hitter period. Babe Ruth is still the greatest home run hitter ever by comparison of at bats to home runs of anyone anywhere anytime and without steroids and totally hung over most of the time. ;). Though Bonds is a hell of a hitter.
 
mathiaslg said:
How can you lot forget Cobb?
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Great player, top 10 most definitely, but not better than Ted, Babe, or Bonds IMO. He'd probably have been suspended quite often in today's game, not to mention probably have had attempts made on his life by irate fans.
 
Cobb held about 80 hitting records for god's sake.

He was undoubtably the best all-around player in the game--although perhaps not the best pure hitter.

Then again, I wouldn't be surprised to discover Bonds using performance enhancing drugs, which none of the Greats ever used.
 
mathiaslg said:
Cobb held about 80 hitting records for god's sake.

He was undoubtably the best all-around player in the game--although perhaps not the best pure hitter.

Then again, I wouldn't be surprised to discover Bonds using performance enhancing drugs, which none of the Greats ever used.
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Wonder if most players do now days, including such fan favs as McGwire (appears he did) and Sosa (from 175 to 225, interesting).
 
mathiaslg said:
How can you lot forget Cobb?
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I would have put him in but there is a stigma about putting in a hitter who hit primarily singles vs. the later all around hitters, though Cobb's amazing feats and consistency certainly merit a place among the top three. I would also include Gehrig who played in the shadow of Ruth most of his career and had he not been cut down in his prime a holder of even greater stats than he possessed. He was one of my all time faves. Lets not forget that Williams and Dimaggio also gave away nearly four years of their careers in military service and those were prime years.

It's my opinion that had the conditions been optimal Gehrig would have easily reached 640 home runs. Dimaggio easily 500 and Williams possibly more than 670. that's just homers, imagine how many more hits, add an extra 700 hits to each of them at least as well as an additional 500 rbi's each.
 
MrMarcello said:
Wonder if most players do now days, including such fan favs as McGwire (appears he did) and Sosa (from 175 to 225, interesting).
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There is an absolutely excellent article in Sports Illustrated from about March of 2003 that talks about actual numbers and speculation. If you do a bit of digging you can find it. It was a cover story article so if you check S.I. archives from that spring it shouldn't be too difficult to find. Well worth it.
 
seems like no one's talking about Ichiro... he's inches away from beating the # of singles-in-a-season record
 
No one's talking about the Giants, either. They're playing great baseball right now and have come back from 6 1/2 games back to just 1/2 game behind the friggin' Dodgers. It appears that we have ourselves a pennant race in the West.

Go Giants! :)
 
10 more to go for Ichiro to tie the record, 11 more to go to beat the record

and the Houston Astros were brilliant in the past couple of weeks also
 
Maddux does it again! 15 wins or more for 17 consecutive seasons. Maddux remains in a class by himself, even though he looked much better in the Braves uniform.
 
TheDevil'sOwn said:
Barry Larkin is a better SS than Bonds is a LF, hitting included. He's proved that throughout his career and won 2 championships while he was at it. But, of course, "numbers are numbers." If you hold that to be a measuring stick of a great player...then there's no point continuing the discussion with you. Brady Anderson hit 50 HRs in 1996. Bonds hit 42. Of the two...who was the best player that year? Think carefully before you answer that. You do have those "numbers" to consider, afterall.

Ruth would be the greatest player of his generation...Mays of his...I don't know about right now...it would've been Griffey had he stayed healthy...but it looks like it will be A. Rodriguez.

And you putting Jeter in a "different" category is exactly my point. That category is a guy who produces offensively, produces defensively, is a leader on a winning team, wins championships, and is the very definition of a baseball player. He didn't lead the league in just a couple of offensive categories and get lifted onto the shoulders of the statheads of the world. He plays the game...and he plays it right. Just as Berra and Munson and Larkin did/do. Bonds is the one who is in a "different" category...he lacks those qualities...and you admitted it yourself without even recognizing it.

The fact Barry is a cnut on the field...well, off the field, too...he and Kent wouldn't have tried to choke each other in the dugout during the middle of a game if that weren't the case...further illustrates the point that he isn't a great teammate or a team leader. And you wonder why his team can't ever rally behind him and play for him and him for them. His popularity, or lack thereof, with the media is irrelevant. I don't think he's an all-around great player because I watch the game and see his defensive shortcomings and his lack of clubhouse leadership...but now that's considered being "misunderstood?" Because he's a complete cnut? Sosa and McGwire aren't any better players because they're media-friendly and nice. They're just more popular. How that correlates into Bonds not being recognized as a great overall player needs to be explained to me. He isn't a great overall player...because...HE ISN'T. Great offensively...always questionable defensively. And he still couldn't throw out 106 yr. old Sid Bream from deep short when he needed to the most. Add bottler to that, too.

It would do some of you lot good to watch a season or two, so you have an idea of what the game is about, before you post...and not just catch highlights on ESPN's "Baseball Tonight."
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Sorry it took me a month to respond but your entitled to your opinion as always. I take great offence at ur last statement however as I know I have seen more baseball then you have have. Dosnt make me an expert or anything but I am not part of your socalled highlight generation.
 
My award picks:
AL MVP - Gary Sheffield (will be a close race with Vlad, Manny, Ortiz, Mariano)
NL MVP - Barry Bonds
AL CY - Johan Santana
NL CY - Roger Clemens (should rename the award the Rogers Clemens Award)
AL MAN - Buck Showalter (any other season, Joe Torre)
NL MAN - Felipe Alou (Phil Garner of Houston runner-up)
 
Shef and Bonds as the NL/AL MVP
voted shef and Bonds as the Hank Arron winner
Alex Rios as the rookie of the year
CY - Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling (hope he doesn't win this 'coz i hate boosox)
 
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