That has seemed to be a constant deflection tactic from a lot of Barça fans on here. It's very strange.
Barcelona: Charged with corruption .... again!
- Thread starter The Boy
- Start date
Antonio Camacho's complaint.
President Plaza had it sworn to the Madrid collegiate Antonio Camacho. In his defense of Guruceta and his scandalous penalty, he resigned and tried to drag with him all the referees with a generalized plant, to accentuate the scandal for the "injustice" that was being committed with the referee of the controversial penalty of the Camp Nou, which was sanctioned for his error by the high instances of Spanish sports .
But Camacho did not want to know anything about Plaza's compromises.
It was at that time when the Madrid referee Camacho uttered the famous phrase: "as long as Plaza is president of the referees, Barça will not win LaLiga again". And it was based on the fact that Plaza commanded everything, personally deciding the referees who should direct the matches.
And the curse of Plaza was consummated. From 1975 to 1990 Barça only won one league, in 1985. It was impossible for the referees to remedy it because the difference between Barça and Real Madrid that year was huge. The Blaugrana team, then led by Terry Venables, was proclaimed champion five days before the end of the championship. Impossible to stop that. The first and last Barça title with Plaza manipulating the designations at will.
President Plaza had it sworn to the Madrid collegiate Antonio Camacho. In his defense of Guruceta and his scandalous penalty, he resigned and tried to drag with him all the referees with a generalized plant, to accentuate the scandal for the "injustice" that was being committed with the referee of the controversial penalty of the Camp Nou, which was sanctioned for his error by the high instances of Spanish sports .
But Camacho did not want to know anything about Plaza's compromises.
It was at that time when the Madrid referee Camacho uttered the famous phrase: "as long as Plaza is president of the referees, Barça will not win LaLiga again". And it was based on the fact that Plaza commanded everything, personally deciding the referees who should direct the matches.
And the curse of Plaza was consummated. From 1975 to 1990 Barça only won one league, in 1985. It was impossible for the referees to remedy it because the difference between Barça and Real Madrid that year was huge. The Blaugrana team, then led by Terry Venables, was proclaimed champion five days before the end of the championship. Impossible to stop that. The first and last Barça title with Plaza manipulating the designations at will.
Actually that is wrong. Plaza (ref president at the time) didnt say that. It was Camacho (a ref at the time) who said that referring to Plaza:
Camacho afirmó que "mientras Plaza sea presidente el Barcelona no volverá a ser campeón", que andando el tiempo acabó tomándose por una confesión del propio Plaza como 'venganza' al hecho de que tras el 'caso Guruceta' de 1970 él tuviera que abandonar la presidencia de los árbitros.
Ah, yes. There you go, it was Camacho all along, not Plaza. Your posts contradict each other
Also, you know Who that Camacho is, right?
He is the ref who gave other refs money (las famosas "cortadoras") from Barca. You can read about it here:
Are you gonna mention the fact that that Camacho you quote gave other refs bribes from Barca or are you gonna avoid it??
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Now the historical corruption
Real Madrid, 9 - FC Barcelona, 0
While Plaza was the only one who appointed the referees (1976-80 and 1985-90), Barça did not win a single league and Real Madrid took 9 enjoying their golden age in LaLiga accumulating titles under suspicion, one after the other .
Ohhhhhh surprise!!!!!
And in the interregnum between 1980 and 1985, in which it was an arbitration committee, and not only Plaza, in charge of appointing the referees, Real Madrid remained blank and the Leagues were distributed by Real Sociedad (2), Athletic Bilbao (2) and Barça.
The phrase that Camacho attributed to Plaza summed up the spirit of revenge against Barça that nested in him before the situation experienced by his outstanding disciple José Emilio Guruceta and served to be invited to abandon his activity as a referee. But nothing happened. There were testimonies willing to denounce the fraudulent behavior in favor of Real Madrid of the president of the referees. But the matter was shelved. It was not interested in the capital.
While Plaza was the only one who appointed the referees (1976-80 and 1985-90), Barça did not win a single league and Real Madrid took 9 enjoying their golden age in LaLiga accumulating titles under suspicion, one after the other .
Ohhhhhh surprise!!!!!
And in the interregnum between 1980 and 1985, in which it was an arbitration committee, and not only Plaza, in charge of appointing the referees, Real Madrid remained blank and the Leagues were distributed by Real Sociedad (2), Athletic Bilbao (2) and Barça.
The phrase that Camacho attributed to Plaza summed up the spirit of revenge against Barça that nested in him before the situation experienced by his outstanding disciple José Emilio Guruceta and served to be invited to abandon his activity as a referee. But nothing happened. There were testimonies willing to denounce the fraudulent behavior in favor of Real Madrid of the president of the referees. But the matter was shelved. It was not interested in the capital.
it’s gone past funny and into the genuinely worrying phase. just like that time my grandad wouldn’t take off that women’s hat.
No, we're at "they did it". There is no official corruption charge, just an investigation that leads into nothing so far, because there is nothing according to the club except a narrative from people who dislike barca and blow up an ethically wrong payment out of proportion.
"I want a public confrontation with Plaza. All his actions are a personal revenge of his for not having acceded to the refereeing plan he proposed when Guruceta was punished." That's what Camacho said then. They did not pay attention to him, despite the denunciations of José María García in the SER and in Don Balón during that time.
Plaza's stain is still there for life at Real Madrid. And their titles under suspicion, too.
But Florentino Pérez enjoys the fortune of having an army of faithful media servants willing to clean the blood to make it seem that there was never a crime.
Florentino Pérez and Alejandro de Pedro agreed in September 2013 to create a web portal (www.diariobernabeu.com) with the aim of cleaning up the image of Real Madrid through the internet and different social networks. According to the information that this Thursday brings to light 'eldiario.es', the president of the white club paid up to 300,000 euros for Alejandro de Pedro, one of the defendants in the Punic case, to organize the entire campaign on the network .
As the published information explains, Florentino Pérez and Antonio Galeano, leader of the Real Madrid communication team, explained and gave orders to Alejandro de Pedro about everything he should publish and what he should not. Campaigns were organized against people like Ramón Calderón, former president of Real Madrid, and the portal was used to pressure referees and coaches when making the lineup.
Plaza's stain is still there for life at Real Madrid. And their titles under suspicion, too.
But Florentino Pérez enjoys the fortune of having an army of faithful media servants willing to clean the blood to make it seem that there was never a crime.
Florentino Pérez and Alejandro de Pedro agreed in September 2013 to create a web portal (www.diariobernabeu.com) with the aim of cleaning up the image of Real Madrid through the internet and different social networks. According to the information that this Thursday brings to light 'eldiario.es', the president of the white club paid up to 300,000 euros for Alejandro de Pedro, one of the defendants in the Punic case, to organize the entire campaign on the network .
As the published information explains, Florentino Pérez and Antonio Galeano, leader of the Real Madrid communication team, explained and gave orders to Alejandro de Pedro about everything he should publish and what he should not. Campaigns were organized against people like Ramón Calderón, former president of Real Madrid, and the portal was used to pressure referees and coaches when making the lineup.
Lovely echo chamber here. You enjoying yourself Niemans?
Ultimately La Liga will end up the biggest losers in this saga. If both RM and Barca are implicated, what's there left in La Liga to watch?.
The simple fact that you are producing such intellectually inept attempt, tells you everything about state of FC Barcelona.
Most of the referees' presidents have been either former partners or former directors of Real Madrid and have benefited. It has been considered the club of the current regime."
Those words are absolutely documented, since a total of ten (Alfonso Albéniz Jordana, Carlos Dieste Vega, Luis Colina Álvarez, Antonio de Cárcer, Julián Ruete Muniesa, Eulogio Aranguren Labairu, Manuel Emilio Suárez Marcelo, Pedro Escartín Morán, Luis Saura del Pan, José Plaza).
In the video produced by Real Madrid they ask "who is the team of the regime" and make a series of statements such as that "the Camp Nou was inaugurated by Franco's general minister, José Solís Ruiz", that "Barça awarded the gold and brilliant badge to Franco", which he named "honorary partner to Franco in 1965", who "decorated Franco three times", who "was saved three times from bankruptcy by three requalifications of Franco".
To what extent the Barça entity, after the Civil War, was a club dominated or kidnapped by the regime, and in which its directors were not members until the moment of being appointed. In fact, we must not forget that Josep Suñol, president of the club, was executed in 1936.
"With Franco, Madrid took 15 years to win the league and was dismantled in the Civil War, players killed, arrested and exiled, as the Santiago Bernabéu documentary recounts," the video says. These statements could be perfectly true, since the team that protected the regime in the first years after the Civil War was Atlético de Madrid, known at that time as Atlético Aviación.
it was not until the arrival of Santiago Bernabéu, in 1943, when the regime and the aristocracy that accompanied it saw in Real Madrid a symbol to project. The creation of the European Cup by Bernabéu and Saporta, with the advantages acquired by the club during the first editions, and the signing of Di Stéfano, in which the Federation influenced decisively to the detriment of Barça, took the club to another dimension.
Those words are absolutely documented, since a total of ten (Alfonso Albéniz Jordana, Carlos Dieste Vega, Luis Colina Álvarez, Antonio de Cárcer, Julián Ruete Muniesa, Eulogio Aranguren Labairu, Manuel Emilio Suárez Marcelo, Pedro Escartín Morán, Luis Saura del Pan, José Plaza).
In the video produced by Real Madrid they ask "who is the team of the regime" and make a series of statements such as that "the Camp Nou was inaugurated by Franco's general minister, José Solís Ruiz", that "Barça awarded the gold and brilliant badge to Franco", which he named "honorary partner to Franco in 1965", who "decorated Franco three times", who "was saved three times from bankruptcy by three requalifications of Franco".
To what extent the Barça entity, after the Civil War, was a club dominated or kidnapped by the regime, and in which its directors were not members until the moment of being appointed. In fact, we must not forget that Josep Suñol, president of the club, was executed in 1936.
"With Franco, Madrid took 15 years to win the league and was dismantled in the Civil War, players killed, arrested and exiled, as the Santiago Bernabéu documentary recounts," the video says. These statements could be perfectly true, since the team that protected the regime in the first years after the Civil War was Atlético de Madrid, known at that time as Atlético Aviación.
it was not until the arrival of Santiago Bernabéu, in 1943, when the regime and the aristocracy that accompanied it saw in Real Madrid a symbol to project. The creation of the European Cup by Bernabéu and Saporta, with the advantages acquired by the club during the first editions, and the signing of Di Stéfano, in which the Federation influenced decisively to the detriment of Barça, took the club to another dimension.
Espanyol of course!
Jokes aside, this is exactly what Barca wants. They are deflecting the blame. No other Spanish team is accused of paying Negreira. There is even a document from Negreira to Barca where he admits that Barca demanded that he worked for them exclusively so he couldnt give services to other third parties:
I am close to believing Niemans. But I’m just not quite there yet. Not enough randomly bold text. If it were more, I’d be convinced.
I see that the truth hurts you.
Yes, more than my ex-wife did. She also had a very broad understanding of the word "truth".
You should not believe anyone, if you do you would simply be a brainwashed person. If you are interested in the subject, look for and contrast information. Then reflect and draw your own conclusions.
I'm sorry to hear that.
What is the matter HTG, does the truth hurt you too?
I disagree. There was no bold text at all in this post. Not convincing.
You raise some great and concerning points. I’m now willing to change my whole believe system. Thank you for your convincing research and reasoning.
I think they have but it's just conclusions you don't like, hence your tirade this afternoon. You should go and lie down for a bit - and I'm being genuine here - it's worrying how much effort you're putting into this on the forum of an unrelated club.
Most of Nieman's posts have been either nonsensical or completely inane, and have benefited no one. He has been considered the foremost poster damaging the current reputation of Barcelona on the entire internet."
Those words are absolutely documented, since a total of ten (Farty McFarterson, Gorf Bogchap, Mionel Lessi, Poop Guardiola, Definitely Real Person, Firstname Lastname, Not Nieman's Mom, Licka Madiq, Munchma Cuchi, Xavi Hernandez).
In the posts produced by Niemans they ask "why is cheating bad" and make a series of statements such as that "even if we cheated they did too a long time ago allegedly", that "gosh Laporta's scrotum tastes nice", who he named "the smartest man who ever lived on Planet Earth who has never lied once ever"
To what extent the Niemans entity, after the Very Obvious and Extremely Bad-Looking Cheating Scandal of Barcelona, was a person dominated or kidnapped by the Caf, and in which its brain cells were not members until the moment of being appointed. In fact, we must not forget that Nieman's last shred of dignity, was executed in 2023.
The Government of the Generalitat asks Madrid "to remove its manipulative video".
Manipulator!?! Impossible!!
Plaja's complaint left a long reflection: "I can tell you, on behalf of the Government, that the video that Real Madrid has disseminated is a manipulation of history so crude that it seems manual. It is an indecent 'fake news' and the worst thing is that it does not come from a particular user. The importance is not small coming from a football club with so many followers and with so much repercussion.
No, the video can't be a lie. How can it be a lie if it has billions of likes and retweets. No way.
Manipulator!?! Impossible!!
Plaja's complaint left a long reflection: "I can tell you, on behalf of the Government, that the video that Real Madrid has disseminated is a manipulation of history so crude that it seems manual. It is an indecent 'fake news' and the worst thing is that it does not come from a particular user. The importance is not small coming from a football club with so many followers and with so much repercussion.
No, the video can't be a lie. How can it be a lie if it has billions of likes and retweets. No way.
If i understand you correctly... First regime clubs were FC Barcelona and Atletico? Then Real Madrid?
Espanyol of course!
Jokes aside, this is exactly what Barca wants. They are deflecting the blame. No other Spanish team is accused of paying Negreira. There is even a document from Negreira to Barca where he admits that Barca demanded that he worked for them exclusively so he couldnt give services to other third parties:
I don't follow La Liga closely. To me both Barca and RM have dodgy records. The Spanish government can even pay RM's debt with some dodgy land deal or something.
Having watched random matches of La Liga, one way or another, both RM and Barca always got preferential treatment from the referees. Maybe because they are the pillar of La Liga and without them there is nothing left in La Liga. It feels the same in Europe where referees give preferential treatment to them especially vs English sides.
Perez is no saint himself. I think he is also up to something. Perez and Laporta are both dodgy characters. Not sure why but now the target seems to be only Barca.
Note, all this is just my feeling based on nothing and I could be very wrong.
Why is Laporta bringing Franco into this conversation?
What's funny to me is that when Enriquez Negreira was interviewed by the tax agency, he specifically made the point that Barcelona hired him because they thought referees treated them unfairly and benefitted other clubs.
When Laporta comes out ranting against the 'regime's club' or Niemans writes long bolded post about some shit from 60 years ago, it just proves Enriquez Negreira's point: Barcelona FC and their supporters legitimately believe that things are being stolen from them through illegal means. Why should it surprise anyone, then, that they'd be willing to get their hands dirty in order to level the playing field?
When Laporta comes out ranting against the 'regime's club' or Niemans writes long bolded post about some shit from 60 years ago, it just proves Enriquez Negreira's point: Barcelona FC and their supporters legitimately believe that things are being stolen from them through illegal means. Why should it surprise anyone, then, that they'd be willing to get their hands dirty in order to level the playing field?
Now in English too
It could be that Barca have just been caught paying 7 million euro's to the VP of referees. Tends to swing attention your way a bit if you do that.
Don't mention the war. Laporta mentioned it once but I think he got away with it.
For shits and giggles
I've never seen a video like that released by a club
Strange times we're in.
Strange times we're in.
Do they even have the rights to the Benny Hill theme?
Barca think Real are corrupt. Real think Barca are corrupt.
When will they both realize...?
When will they both realize...?
This is getting interesting.
This thread is VERY SAD... I don't even have words to explain what I feel when I see this. This is, anyway, a fair portrait of the state of the country itself... it is just pathetic. Franco died 50 years ago, we are close to a century from the Civil War...
Laporta should have never talked about the "regime" because it has nothing to do with Negreira, it is pathetic. It is just not relevant. The Real Madrid video is stupid and a shame. Real Madrid TV by the way has been nauseating for the last few months.
I think this debate is very unfair for Barcelona and Real Madrid and this doesn't help at all, anyone, for any reason. This just inflates even more the hate and light on the fanatics.
I will give you my vision (which, by the way, it is more or less the "consensus" among historians)...
In summary, neither Barca or Real were "the team of the regime", the regime used them, in different ways, with different objectives.
I will start with Real...
Madrid was a Republican city (and it fought like that), Santiago Bernabeu was not. Bernabeu fled Madrid, joined the Franco army, fought in Catalonia and got condecorated by the Franco army. He wasn't himself a "francoist", but he was a right wing man who chose his side in the war. He became president of Real as an "ok" from the club itself and the power (specially military). Bernabeu had a better relationship with the military than politicians (even if they were former military too). He was a strong man and he didn't like to be told, so he usually had his in and outs with authority power, but he still was a right wing conservative, so it wasn't a real issue for Franco. He could do what he pleased while he kept minimum respect. Real Madrid was destroyed after the war because Madrid itself was destroyed. That is the main reason Madrid didn't have a lot of success right after the war. You could see a lot of military in the stadium but not a lot of money at that point. He started to rebuild.
By 50s, Bernabeu was doing a good job and the regime started to see it like a good thing, a good propaganda machine. When Madrid started winning it was crystal clear. They were the perfect ambassassor of the regime. They were from Madrid (more on that later), they were 100% spanish, no doubt, the president, even if he wasn't super proFranco, shared the same ideology and they even wore pure white (not in terms of race, but more like christian priests). Meanwhile, Madrid never had an issue being used, as it was good for them too. One of the ways the government helped them, was using the diplomats to create reports of rival teams in Europe so Madrid knew better about their players, style of play, etc. Government main help was PR. Madrid became the most followed team of Spain by their own merits and the help of the government. Can you blame Bernabeu on that? I don't think so. Does it mean they were "the team of the regime"? I don't think so. Does it mean that they didn't profit from the propaganda the government created around them? I don't think so.
The Real Madrid video put a phrase from Bernabeu (when Franco was already dead), but Saporta (who gave name to the basketball stadium, very close friend to Bernabeu and who took the power for transition after his death told:
Real Madrid is and has been political. It has always been so powerful for being at the service of the backbone of the State. When it was founded in 1902 it respected Alfonso XIII, in 1931 the Republic, in 1939 the Generalissimo, and now it respects His Majesty Juan Carlos. Because it is a disciplined Club and it is loyal to the institution that leads the nation. institution that leads the nation.
To me, Real Madrid is not "the team of the regime" in the sense of the "favourite" (it was, for propaganda reasons), but Madrid has controlled for the most part of the history all the football bodies. From the referees themselves (80-90% of time until the 90s) and the football justice system (they had a majority of members until 2018 in the Competition Committee who decide sanctions and they are the only team with members in that deciding committee right now).
Barca...
The interest in Barca was totally different. Sunyol was killed by the Franco army while he was Barca president. He had announced he was going to leave because of political reasons, as he was joining ERC (Republican Leftist of Catalonia). He wasn't killed for being Barca president, he just happened to be.
From now on, Franco was very interested in having Barcelona under control, because Catalonia represented (obvious) different issues to the Regime and the team already was a very followed institution in Catalonia (not like Espanyol, for example). Franco tried to basically kidnap FC Barcelona for the most time of his rule. Many of the presidents weren't even members of Barcelona, they were men of the regime.
"Then... Barcelona was the team of the regime!"... well... no... the intention was not making Barca win, just deprive the catalanist views and show kind of "how spaniard Barca are, how unite we are with Franco". Barca had some success right after the war because they were already a good team and the war wasn't that devastating for them, in comparison. However, the team was worse and worse because the board was more or less intervined the whole time, and it wasn't easy to focus just in the sport. In the meantime, the presidents who were closer to the regime had more actions like the mentioned in the video or help in specific moments.
So... was Barca the team of the regime? no... it was just another victim that the regime wanted to use for its own benefit.
Barca and Real were both instruments of Franco for his benefit. Period.
Laporta should have never talked about the "regime" because it has nothing to do with Negreira, it is pathetic. It is just not relevant. The Real Madrid video is stupid and a shame. Real Madrid TV by the way has been nauseating for the last few months.
I think this debate is very unfair for Barcelona and Real Madrid and this doesn't help at all, anyone, for any reason. This just inflates even more the hate and light on the fanatics.
I will give you my vision (which, by the way, it is more or less the "consensus" among historians)...
In summary, neither Barca or Real were "the team of the regime", the regime used them, in different ways, with different objectives.
I will start with Real...
Madrid was a Republican city (and it fought like that), Santiago Bernabeu was not. Bernabeu fled Madrid, joined the Franco army, fought in Catalonia and got condecorated by the Franco army. He wasn't himself a "francoist", but he was a right wing man who chose his side in the war. He became president of Real as an "ok" from the club itself and the power (specially military). Bernabeu had a better relationship with the military than politicians (even if they were former military too). He was a strong man and he didn't like to be told, so he usually had his in and outs with authority power, but he still was a right wing conservative, so it wasn't a real issue for Franco. He could do what he pleased while he kept minimum respect. Real Madrid was destroyed after the war because Madrid itself was destroyed. That is the main reason Madrid didn't have a lot of success right after the war. You could see a lot of military in the stadium but not a lot of money at that point. He started to rebuild.
By 50s, Bernabeu was doing a good job and the regime started to see it like a good thing, a good propaganda machine. When Madrid started winning it was crystal clear. They were the perfect ambassassor of the regime. They were from Madrid (more on that later), they were 100% spanish, no doubt, the president, even if he wasn't super proFranco, shared the same ideology and they even wore pure white (not in terms of race, but more like christian priests). Meanwhile, Madrid never had an issue being used, as it was good for them too. One of the ways the government helped them, was using the diplomats to create reports of rival teams in Europe so Madrid knew better about their players, style of play, etc. Government main help was PR. Madrid became the most followed team of Spain by their own merits and the help of the government. Can you blame Bernabeu on that? I don't think so. Does it mean they were "the team of the regime"? I don't think so. Does it mean that they didn't profit from the propaganda the government created around them? I don't think so.
The Real Madrid video put a phrase from Bernabeu (when Franco was already dead), but Saporta (who gave name to the basketball stadium, very close friend to Bernabeu and who took the power for transition after his death told:
Real Madrid is and has been political. It has always been so powerful for being at the service of the backbone of the State. When it was founded in 1902 it respected Alfonso XIII, in 1931 the Republic, in 1939 the Generalissimo, and now it respects His Majesty Juan Carlos. Because it is a disciplined Club and it is loyal to the institution that leads the nation. institution that leads the nation.
To me, Real Madrid is not "the team of the regime" in the sense of the "favourite" (it was, for propaganda reasons), but Madrid has controlled for the most part of the history all the football bodies. From the referees themselves (80-90% of time until the 90s) and the football justice system (they had a majority of members until 2018 in the Competition Committee who decide sanctions and they are the only team with members in that deciding committee right now).
Barca...
The interest in Barca was totally different. Sunyol was killed by the Franco army while he was Barca president. He had announced he was going to leave because of political reasons, as he was joining ERC (Republican Leftist of Catalonia). He wasn't killed for being Barca president, he just happened to be.
From now on, Franco was very interested in having Barcelona under control, because Catalonia represented (obvious) different issues to the Regime and the team already was a very followed institution in Catalonia (not like Espanyol, for example). Franco tried to basically kidnap FC Barcelona for the most time of his rule. Many of the presidents weren't even members of Barcelona, they were men of the regime.
"Then... Barcelona was the team of the regime!"... well... no... the intention was not making Barca win, just deprive the catalanist views and show kind of "how spaniard Barca are, how unite we are with Franco". Barca had some success right after the war because they were already a good team and the war wasn't that devastating for them, in comparison. However, the team was worse and worse because the board was more or less intervined the whole time, and it wasn't easy to focus just in the sport. In the meantime, the presidents who were closer to the regime had more actions like the mentioned in the video or help in specific moments.
So... was Barca the team of the regime? no... it was just another victim that the regime wanted to use for its own benefit.
Barca and Real were both instruments of Franco for his benefit. Period.
