Barcelona: Charged with corruption .... again!

anant said:
But the point here is that they cant buy anyone right now to replace him. If you want 200m worth of savings, and you're selling Messi, that alone isnt going to be enough. Griezmann, Dembele, etc. need to be sold regardless and the question then becomes would that side finish in top 3 or would they be in a fight for 4th.
Surely, people do realize he's worth additional 15 points over any decent player. Now, you're removing that player and not replacing him at all.
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This is just pulling a number out of nowhere. As others have said, who's to say that other player may not step up their games with Messi gone? Also, what about the famed La Masia production line? Surely there's some talent to be mined there? In short, losing Messi would be a short term blow, of course it would, but one worth receiving in the long term. No chance Barca miss out on top four and, even in the event of that very unlikely scenario, it wouldn't be for more than a season or so.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
What do resident Barcelona fans think of the whole thing? Is it keep Messi whatever it takes and not care about anyone else in the team?
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Of course they do.

Barcelona fans are as plastic as Madrid fans because they cannot handle the fact that they may not be able to win a title for a few years while they rebuild post Messi.

so rather then do the the right thing, rip the bandaid off and cop shit for a couple of years, they’d rather hang on to mighty midget and hope he can drag them to trophies.

similarly their stupid fan ownership fecks them because nobody wants to tell them the truth regarding how fecked their club is by continuing down this path.

pretty much calling it now. Messi will be the greatest and equally the worst thing that has ever happened to that club. He has set an expectation so high that the club and their plastic fans will never recover from. United were similar with Fergie, but we had Sir Matt in past life that keeps fans grounded. To know that it’s possible to rebound and that sometimes it takes time

Barcelona not so much. Many years of being an Arsenal like club before finding Ronaldinho due to mediocrity of Peter Kenyon and then their golden generation coming along.
 
Pickle85 said:
This is just pulling a number out of nowhere. As others have said, who's to say that other player may not step up their games with Messi gone? Also, what about the famed La Masia production line? Surely there's some talent to be mined there? In short, losing Messi would be a short term blow, of course it would, but one worth receiving in the long term. No chance Barca miss out on top four and, even in the event of that very unlikely scenario, it wouldn't be for more than a season or so.
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He was MotM 21 times last season I believe, so surely he's been worth around those many points.
And no one's saying that they'd become a mid table team. The point is they might have a season or two where they are fighting for 4th ( might finish on 4 sides of the line).
And as far as others stepping up is concerned, they will have to sell people like Griezmann, Demebele as it is. So, there isn't anyone who can just take up his spot if they decide to release him
 
anant said:
He was MotM 21 times last season I believe, so surely he's been worth around those many points.
And no one's saying that they'd become a mid table team. The point is they might have a season or two where they are fighting for 4th ( might finish on 4 sides of the line).
And as far as others stepping up is concerned, they will have to sell people like Griezmann, Demebele as it is. So, there isn't anyone who can just take up his spot if they decide to release him
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I guess people see it as the only solution because no one is going to buy Griezmann or Dembele (or Pjanic, or Umtiti or Coutinho). They're all players you'd want to sell if your finances were in perfect order. Griezmann doesn't want to change league so basically 2 teams can afford him and Real certainly aren't going to help out. I'd be surprised if Atletico were that cooperative either, though i guess they dont have that much money to throw around even if they're feeling generous?
They've been trying to sell most of these players for years with no luck, I dont see how they manage now that half of european football is broke.
Even the desirable players like messi and de jong are on mental wages, selling them wouldn't be straightforward.
 
I don't think it is that outrageous to say that they might finish out of the top four without Messi. They are a disjointed side incredibly reliant on one player.
 
B20 said:
I don't think it is that outrageous to say that they might finish out of the top four without Messi. They are a disjointed side incredibly reliant on one player.
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The gap between top four and the rest is usually pretty big in La Liga. In recent years, the league winner and the runner up are in the 80s point range. Third and fourth are usually in the 70s. Fifth and below are in the 60s or lower. For how 'bad' they are, Barcelona have averaged 80.5 points over the last two seasons.

Real Madrid lost Cristiano Ronaldo and had most of the team playing poorly in 2018-2019, they still got 68 points. The next season, still having failed to replace Ronaldo and essentially losing Bale's contributions, they got 87 points and won La Liga. They did that by conceding 20 less goals than in the previous seasons, which was not really achieved by revamping the defense, with only Mendy replacing Marcelo. They mostly just adapted the playstyle. Barcelona could do that too.

They could also try to replace some of Messi's output, and they have a better chance of doing that than RM. Griezmann can score goals. Aguero can score goals. Dembele can score goals. Fati, if he heals, can score goals. RM have a single player in their squad who can score goals regularly, Benzema.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The gap between top four and the rest is usually pretty big in La Liga. In recent years, the league winner and the runner up are in the 80s point range. Third and fourth are usually in the 70s. Fifth and below are in the 60s or lower. For how 'bad' they are, Barcelona have averaged 80.5 points over the last two seasons.

Real Madrid lost Cristiano Ronaldo and had most of the team playing poorly in 2018-2019, they still got 68 points. The next season, still having failed to replace Ronaldo and essentially losing Bale's contributions, they got 87 points and won La Liga. They did that by conceding 20 less goals than in the previous seasons, which was not really achieved by revamping the defense, with only Mendy replacing Marcelo. They mostly just adapted the playstyle. Barcelona could do that too.

They could also try to replace some of Messi's output, and they have a better chance of doing that than RM. Griezmann can score goals. Aguero can score goals. Dembele can score goals. Fati, if he heals, can score goals. RM have a single player in their squad who can score goals regularly, Benzema.
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That's all well and good. I see this Barca side as more disjointed and porous than real was and Messi contributing more to them than Ronaldo did to real.

The fact that real finished on 68 points after Ronaldo left is if anything a compelling argument that Barca could do similar or worse.

Of course they could also not. But it's not far fetched to think that it could very well happen to them.
 
Nah. Barca look disjointed without Messi because everything goes through him. To quote some american coach about some big player "if that guy is out we're fecked. We don't practice fecked"

The funny thing is barcelona actually have enough talent to do it
 
B20 said:
The fact that real finished on 68 points after Ronaldo left is if anything a compelling argument that Barca could do similar or worse.
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Yes... Barcelona doing similar would mean a somewhat comfortable top 4 finish.

anant said:
Surely, people do realize he's worth additional 15 points over any decent player. Now, you're removing that player and not replacing him at all.
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Barcelona just signed Aguero and Depay. I think they can contribute a few goals. A bit of an exaggeration to say Messi would not be replaced "at all."
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Barcelona just signed Aguero and Depay. I think they can contribute a few goals. A bit of an exaggeration to say Messi would not be replaced "at all."
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Depay might be a good signing. Aguero - not so sure. Plus, the guy was also contributing in terms of playmaking. Where do you get that from?

Not saying they'll certainly finish outside top 4. Just saying that they might and I don't think it's that outrageous thing to say
 
I'm sure some version of this point was made before, but Barcelona outscored everyone else in La Liga last season. They outscored Real Madrid and Barcelona by 18 goals. The previous season, they outscored Real Madrid by 16 goals.

Since the 2017-2018 season, they've gone from scoring 99 goals to scoring 85 goals, still comfortably ahead of everyone else. However, they've gone from conceding 29 goals to conceding 38, and dropped from being the second best defense (behind Atletico) to being joint fourth this season (tied with Real Sociedad, the fifth placed team).

The solution? Throw money at Messi and get some new attacking players.
 
Barca are literally swaping players & cancelling contracts just so they can resign Messi.

It really is a mess & an over dependency on one player.

They deserve to struggle.
 
choccy77 said:
Barca are literally swaping players & cancelling contracts just so they can resign Messi.

It really is a mess & an over dependency on one player.

They deserve to struggle.
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Barcelona fans are okay with it obviously because they themselves want half the team out. I think de jong, fati, pedri, messi are the only one untouchables. Which is good because the rest of the team is average.
 
If I were running Barcelona, I'd rather keep Messi than some of the other players too, even if he's 34.

What makes it silly is that, as far as contracts go, Messi's was the easiest problem to solve, by far. He's out of contract. You just don't renew him and that's it, problem is over. Instead you're renewing your most difficult contract to handle, to try and solve much more difficult problems: contracts that end in 2023 (Umtiti, Coutinho) or 2024 (Griezmann).
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
If I were running Barcelona, I'd rather keep Messi than some of the other players too, even if he's 34.

What makes it silly is that, as far as contracts go, Messi's was the easiest problem to solve, by far. He's out of contract. You just don't renew him and that's it, problem is over. Instead you're renewing your most difficult contract to handle, to try and solve much more difficult problems: contracts that end in 2023 (Umtiti, Coutinho) or 2024 (Griezmann).
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How's Laporta supposed to explain to the socios that he didn't even try to keep Messi?
 
I just want to know how they're going to get under their cap figure with the contracts that they have. Re-signing Messi at this point in time is a moot point as they need to find €200m in savings and no one seems interested in the players they want to flog.

In my opinion, they're going to have to start getting realistic and either sell players like De Jong, Perdi, Fati etc, or not sign Messi.

All these ideas that they will flog €800k a week Griezmann, €190k a week Pjanic, €280k a week Umiti, €280k a week Busquets, €300k a week Coutinho, €220k a week injured Dembele etc, is just nonsense. No one is going near those players.
 
Right. He can't get rid of everyone else. It's not really a question of who the club "fires" or whatever. The situation is such that Messi is the only one of these players without a contract.

He's done a bizarre move, which is to re-sign Messi and sign a bunch of additional players, and then what, hope this bullies some of the other players away from the club? Not working very well so far.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Right. He can't get rid of everyone else. It's not really a question of who the club "fires" or whatever. The situation is such that Messi is the only one of these players without a contract.
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I agree with that

My point isn't that he should resign him, it's that he really could not possibly not even try. That would immediately turn the club against him
 
Dave Smith said:
I just want to know how they're going to get under their cap figure with the contracts that they have. Re-signing Messi at this point in time is a moot point as they need to find €200m in savings and no one seems interested in the players they want to flog.

In my opinion, they're going to have to start getting realistic and either sell players like De Jong, Perdi, Fati etc, or not sign Messi.

All these ideas that they will flog €800k a week Griezmann, €190k a week Pjanic, €280k a week Umiti, €280k a week Busquets, €300k a week Coutinho, €220k a week injured Dembele etc, is just nonsense. No one is going near those players.
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Pretty much.
 
Griezman had a bit of a revival this past season. He's probably the only one with a high salary that will most certainly be sold.

Dembele and Coutinho on the other hand are uncompletely unsellable.

I'll think they'll line up something like this next season:

Messi
Memphis Pedri Fati
De Jong Busquets
Alba Araujo Garcia Mingueza
Ter Stegen
​
No way Memphis/Aguero will do what Griezman did and track Messi's man for him if Messi is RW. Guy just has to play centrally.

Vs weaker teams: Messi no 10, Aguero/Memphis up top, Pedri/Memphis LW, defending in 4-4-2.

Pique and Dest will come in for 5-3-2.

They'll try to get rid of Umtiti and Lenglet and the Spanish FA will let them off the hook.
 
VanDeBank said:
Griezman had a bit of a revival this past season. He's probably the only one with a high salary that will most certainly be sold.

Dembele and Coutinho on the other hand are uncompletely unsellable.

I'll think they'll line up something like this next season:

Messi
Memphis Pedri Fati
De Jong Busquets
Alba Araujo Garcia Mingueza
Ter Stegen
​
No way Memphis/Aguero will do what Griezman did and track Messi's man for him if Messi is RW. Guy just has to play centrally.

Vs weaker teams: Messi no 10, Aguero/Memphis up top, Pedri/Memphis LW, defending in 4-4-2.

Pique and Dest will come in for 5-3-2.

They'll try to get rid of Umtiti and Lenglet and the Spanish FA will let them off the hook.
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How are they affording that? Their wage bill needs to get under €180m and they have these contracts they need to deal with:

Griezmann - €45.8m a year
Umiti - €12m a year
Dembele - €12m a year
Pjanic - €8.4m a year
Coutinho - €8.5m a year (some have this reported as net rather than gross, but going with the lower figure)
Roberto - €9.9m a year
Pique - €12.7m a year

That is a minimum of €100.8m or 56% of their allowed wage bill on players you've not included. Then you have to add the managers and backroom staff wages to this as well, as they need to be included in the figure. That is also before you add De Jong, Ter Stegen, Alba and Busquets wages which are seriously high.

I just don't see how they're going to get Messi and all those new players registered as there is no way they are shifting the players on the above list unless they heavily subsidise their wages, which means that they will still have issues with the wage bill.
 
Dave Smith said:
How are they affording that? Their wage bill needs to get under €180m and they have these contracts they need to deal with:

Griezmann - €45.8m a year
Umiti - €12m a year
Dembele - €12m a year
Pjanic - €8.4m a year
Coutinho - €8.5m a year (some have this reported as net rather than gross, but going with the lower figure)
Roberto - €9.9m a year
Pique - €12.7m a year

That is a minimum of €100.8m or 56% of their allowed wage bill on players you've not included. Then you have to add the managers and backroom staff wages to this as well, as they need to be included in the figure. That is also before you add De Jong, Ter Stegen, Alba and Busquets wages which are seriously high.

I just don't see how they're going to get Messi and all those new players registered as there is no way they are shifting the players on the above list unless they heavily subsidise their wages, which means that they will still have issues with the wage bill.
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The salary cap seems to be tied to their financial performance. So getting a few players off the books and making profits on them (at least technically) would probably lift their cap I imagine?
 
Zehner said:
The salary cap seems to be tied to their financial performance. So getting a few players off the books and making profits on them (at least technically) would probably lift their cap I imagine?
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Who is buying/loaning those players on their wages?
 
Dave Smith said:
How are they affording that? Their wage bill needs to get under €180m and they have these contracts they need to deal with:

Griezmann - €45.8m a year
Umiti - €12m a year
Dembele - €12m a year
Pjanic - €8.4m a year
Coutinho - €8.5m a year (some have this reported as net rather than gross, but going with the lower figure)
Roberto - €9.9m a year
Pique - €12.7m a year

That is a minimum of €100.8m or 56% of their allowed wage bill on players you've not included. Then you have to add the managers and backroom staff wages to this as well, as they need to be included in the figure. That is also before you add De Jong, Ter Stegen, Alba and Busquets wages which are seriously high.

I just don't see how they're going to get Messi and all those new players registered as there is no way they are shifting the players on the above list unless they heavily subsidise their wages, which means that they will still have issues with the wage bill.
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FA will exempt them from the rules/change the rules/make some deal.

100% someone takes Griezman, even if that means he leaves for peanuts due to his salary.

No one is touching Dembele, Coutinho, Pique. They'll fill the bench.

They sold Firpo for 15M to Leeds, which means Barca' sales people are magicians.

If they managed that I'm sure they'll be able to sell Pjanic and Umtiti, even if it's for a small fee just to get them off the books.

Roberto is still at Barca?

Maybe the FA forces them to sell De Jong and/or Ter Stegen. They'll bring in an enormous fee. I just don't think the FA has the cajones to push them that far.
 
Dave Smith said:
Who is buying/loaning those players on their wages?
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Don't know, but if they again make one of those swap deals that could buy them time I suppose. Brighten the books and that might increase their salary cap. I mean, it could also be the case that they simply build on La Liga bailing them out since it doesn't want to lose one of the two biggest clubs.
 
Apparently Griezmann could be had for nothing, as long as someone pays his 20M a year salary, even if on a season long loan. Feels like a really good deal for some club.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Apparently Griezmann could be had for nothing, as long as someone pays his 20M a year salary, even if on a season long loan. Feels like a really good deal for some club.
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€20m is his net wage. It is €45m'ish gross. Who is blowing there wage structure apart to take him?
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
I mean, its zero loan fee. Which is rather a nice pick up for a player who can still get you 20 goals a season.
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45m for one season is crazy. Even if you cut his wage in half he'd be our highest earner and earning double what Rashford does, its a mental wage to give a player.
 
caid said:
45m for one season is crazy. Even if you cut his wage in half he'd be our highest earner and earning double what Rashford does, its a mental wage to give a player.
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Yeah, no one would loan him like that. He has to be offered either for free or a normal fee with Barca paying some of the salary as to not upset the wage structure at the destination club.
 
caid said:
45m for one season is crazy. Even if you cut his wage in half he'd be our highest earner and earning double what Rashford does, its a mental wage to give a player.
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Add to it that Spain is the country where he would like to stay
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Apparently Griezmann could be had for nothing, as long as someone pays his 20M a year salary, even if on a season long loan. Feels like a really good deal for some club.
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Yeah but then you’d have to support that silly cnut.
 
caid said:
45m for one season is crazy. Even if you cut his wage in half he'd be our highest earner and earning double what Rashford does, its a mental wage to give a player.
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and he was making even more at Atletico
 
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