You need threads with 100 posts minimum and piss a few along the way to make sure the top 5 greatest player of all time gets credit. Been there
B2B QF: Sjor/Pat vs Enigma/Theon
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
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You need threads with 100 posts minimum and piss a few along the way to make sure the top 5 greatest player of all time gets credit. Been there
I spend ages composing a long-winded essay and Sjor just cuts through the BS like that
. This is why we can't abandon him @Jim Beam 
I spend ages composing a long-winded essay and Sjor just cuts through the BS like that
the Don in his own rightI spend ages composing a long-winded essay and Sjor just cuts through the BS like that
I'll address it here replying to both mate, as I can see it triggered Sjor's inner feelings
First of all - been there done that. Tried Di Stefano in multiple roles in a single draft. From memory used him as a #8, #10 and a #9.
I'm not going to call him problematic, he obviously have many many virtues but he still is one of the most dominant figures on the pitch both in terms of character and his style of play. Obviously we have take with pinch of salt the formations at the time, but this is a guy who was heavily involved with every move.
It was his natural game to drop very deep in possession and take the ball out of the defence so naturally we have to consider that. His personality was dominant on the pitch and players like Didi and Puskas had to adjust despite being GOAT material on their own at their respective positions.
Obviously it was more than that (Didi being a deep playmaker), but I've done multiple materials on Di Stefano and his overall game in possession which is very close to what Cruyff did in his teams.
He's a winner of course and when you get him you get all the positives - his goalscoring, his leadership, his playmaking, his work rate. So yes labeling him problematic isn't doing him a service - he wasn't a such figure on the pitch. However in a team packed with GOAT's we have to consider their elements and what made them great players. What Di Stefano was raved about was his all roundness and that also included playing multiple roles in the pitch.
To me when he's deployed as a #10 (of course not engaging anyone with that opinion) it's similar to what you would do with Maradona - get two runners and ball winners behind him and let him dominate the game of the team. Whilst Kante is a good fit - my only questioning would be handling peak Messi as that's undoubtedly something that goes in our favor, late Schuster seems a bit of overlap in roles when the ball is taken out of the defence and you start the attack in that zone. For example the back arrow you have on Di Stefano is a very accurate representation of his game when you are on the ball.
Love both obviously so I'm not going to put either of them down, but personally I can find them not being optimal in this set up - not to the state I'd say your set up is broken or anything else but in a game with tight margins I think it's well worth the discussion
Did Puskas seriously called someone fat?
These no-restriction drafts are impossible to vote in.
Different systems though. Unless Iniesta was playing on the left of the front three (which he did from time to time) he was part of a midfield three, something that Rivaldo would not do and you would have someone further forward wide left of Iniesta here. You essentially have a 4231 here not a 433. Neymar is a decent comparison with Rivaldo but again the former played further forward than you'd want in this system.
Now that is a fair point.
I'm actually glad you asked me once again.
I'm not sure what you'd call Messi version tbh. He can perform multiple roles in the pitch and has excelled in AM, RW, false 9, CF. It's more of a question of how well he will operate in the given circumstances. He excelled in varied Barca set ups - from Pep to Tito to Tata and never looked off sorts in any place or zone he occupied. Barca also played in multiple formations even 4-4-2 as Physio said where Messi was a SS.
All in all I love Messi obviously as a player and he's one of the best in the game, that goes without saying, so we will definitely use his peak incarnation in terms of goalscoring, and physical condition. Messi of nowadays doesn't press as much, doesn't run as much and depend a lot on his team mates to get the ball to him and do his magic.
Messi at his peak though was literally everywhere. A comparison of him during 10/11 and 14/15:
To me getting the best out of him is to put him in the area of least resistance. Where he would receive the ball and will find himself in space. If we deployed him between your CB's he would be closed down faster. If we deployed him on the RW, your set up will have Zebec and immediately Kante doubling - hence he'd be closed down quicker.
Placing him in that area that we did between your midfield and defensive line is IMO where his impact will be greatest in this given game. Same as Di Stefano - he's not a classic #10 or classic RW or a striker. He will no doubt move around channels and look for space. This is why he often got to the right or left wing even deployed as a false 9 as he was always penetrating and looking for space.
The only version I'd probably divide Messi into is his current latter years where he became tad less explosive and his work rate went down. His vision, passing, goalscoring and dribbling obviously didn't to much extend but his current version is more due to the whole Barca team depending on him and him expected to perform multiple roles on the pitch.
This is why I tried to explain how Figo will move (opting for the outside right just like Alves did) in possession and off possession - tucking in and helping out the midfield off the ball. In possession I also tried to explain on the previous page how our team will shape up but it's also very important to note that even in his 10/11 season as you can see from the highlights above Villa was moving centrally and engaging the opposition CB's quite frequently what a player like Romario would certainly do to the same extend. What Romario brings more is that one touch passing game that Messi would love to exploit.
Yeah, obviously mate, we are not replicating exact systems, but what is very characteristic about Messi is that having highly technical players around him isn't hurting his game, rather than amplifying it and magnifying his impact and movement, as he can exploit those passes and get round multiple defenders with his movement. My example was more to show that he strives on playing with left sided players that occupy both the deep and attacking third channel and he really had no issues with it, but rather forming multiple great partnerships.
His playmaking improved significantly over the years. He always had the technique to produce ridiculous passes, but his vision, consistency and general midfield play became much better in his post false 9 version (RW for Enrique and so on).
Yeah, correct as he had to compensate for missing Xavi and Iniesta in the team. He has gradually improved it more and more since his youth years 05-08, but even in 10/11 his vision and passing was outrageous at times.
From the video above, despite scoring 53 goals that season he produced 91 key passes and 23 assists which is incredible considering how vital was he for Barca in putting the ball in the net and also Barca having Xavi and Iniesta in the zone.
Aye. We felt we had to specify a Schuster version as it's basically part of draft etiquette these days and I'd expect the same regarding Messi as aspects of his game have clearly changed down the years, particularly his playmaking and conversely his work-rate, or lack of it.
Was going to compose a long-winded, waffly post but my loose-cannon partner cut to the chase in PM after the draw was made
Basically, it's hard to see how Romario works to optimum level with false 9 Messi, and with the more recent god-like playmaker Messi there'll be a pronounced and potentially costly lack of work-rate vs the likes of Moore, Schuster and Di Stefano. We've seen in recent years how that lethargy out of possession in the attacking players has cost the likes of PSG and Messi's Barca in the CL.
Also, forgot to address this when I was discussing our midfield but let's not forget that when the situation was reversed and Kante wasn't in a much weaker team than Messi, he souldly out-performed him as France dumped Argentina out of the last World Cup.
We have plenty of work rate from Figo though, who will add to the midfield numbers like he did countless times before.Aye. We felt we had to specify a Schuster version as it's basically part of draft etiquette these days and I'd expect the same regarding Messi as aspects of his game have clearly changed down the years, particularly his playmaking and conversely his work-rate, or lack of it.
Was going to compose a long-winded, waffly post but my loose-cannon partner cut to the chase in PM after the draw was made
Basically, it's hard to see how Romario works to optimum level with false 9 Messi, and with the more recent god-like playmaker Messi there'll be a pronounced and potentially costly lack of work-rate vs the likes of Moore, Schuster and Di Stefano. We've seen in recent years how that lethargy out of possession in the attacking players has cost the likes of PSG and Messi's Barca in the CL.
Well, that Argentina nearly took them out and it was pretty much inferior as a team mate, you have to agree about that. Besides Messi fell in an area where they had not only Kante, but Matuidi and Pogba - all of them putting a shift together against Messi. Also you have to bear in mind that Sampaoli is a fecking tool not starting Aguero and putting Messi against a hoard of French players basically expecting him to do everything on his own.
Watching the game was really surprising the Argies made it so close, Messi was the only big name in the team, his team mates were hugely disappointing even if you look at separate figures and names - apart from Masch(at his last legs) and Di Maria, his team mates couldn't really contribute much against a stacked French side.
The only quality player(apart from Di Maria) in attack that was capable of putting a solid display was sitting on the bench for 66 minutes.
Edit: banning the word t*h*o is really doing my head in...
Tough game to call but I think Kante and Chilavert come second to their counter parts. Giving this to Enigma/Theon by just a whisker
We have plenty of work rate from Figo though, who will add to the midfield numbers like he did countless times before.
Well, that Argentina nearly took them out and it was pretty much inferior as a team mate, you have to agree about that. Besides Messi fell in an area where they had not only Kante, but Matuidi and Pogba - all of them putting a shift together against Messi. Also you have to bear in mind that Sampaoli is a fecking tool not starting Aguero and putting Messi against a hoard of French players basically expecting him to do everything on his own.
Watching the game was really surprising the Argies made it so close, Messi was the only big name in the team, his team mates were hugely disappointing even if you look at separate figures and names - apart from Masch(at his last legs) and Di Maria, his team mates couldn't really contribute much against a stacked French side.
The only quality player(apart from Di Maria) in attack that was capable of putting a solid display was sitting on the bench for 66 minutes.
Edit: banning the word t*h*o is really doing my head in...
Figo will have plenty to do supporting Vogts in the defensive phase - he was a good grafter in his Barca days, less so at Madrid, but I don't think it's realistic to see him as doing some sort of monster Tevez/Rooney style hounding mission on our central players and still helping cover the flank.
I don't disagree that France were the much better team, just pointing out that in the club games you referenced it was Messi tht had the miles better teammates.
EDIT: Interesting that you mention Aguero as he's another reason that I had pause for thought over that Messi/Romario link up. Aguero's just about the closest we've got to Romario stylistically in the current game (several levels below of course) and he's yet to show much in the way of on-pitch understanding with Messi at all.
He has an excellent work rate which well worth highlighting. His teammates have often put that up and IMO is underrated in drafts personally. On that side you have Kante, though, who in all time sense doesn't have much attacking contribution going forward. So in that respect we're not exposed in that zone to an extend that it gives you a significant advantage. Also even when you are on the ball you can't really leave your central core exposed so you can't put all your bodies forward as our team is great in transition and can switch the ball quickly forward and that attack will punish you if we find ourselves in equal numbers.
That doesn't make them the same players
Romario is a much much better striker. He's the better dribbler, he's more explosive and elusive to the defenders, along with a lot of other qualities that pips Aguero. And also you have to bear in mind that Argie side is rotten from top to bottom. They haven't had a decent coach from ages and Sampaoli was taking advice from Messi who he has to put on.. Chemistry is very important to the team as you know. If you stop Messi that Argie side looks at best ordinary, so you can concentrate in hoarding him and take him out of the game without worrying that Enzo Perez or Pavon will decide the game..Argentina side are bunch of turds so an overrated france team beat them easily.
Chelsea team are bunch of turds so an overrated barca team beat them easily.
Both Kante and Messi played great in wins and well in defeats, they didnt overlap much as they played on different sides.
Chelsea team are bunch of turds so an overrated barca team beat them easily.
Both Kante and Messi played great in wins and well in defeats, they didnt overlap much as they played on different sides.
I love drunk sjor!
I for one loved the invisible team sheet tactic as a stroke of genius.
Did Puskas seriously called someone fat?
Good game @Pat_Mustard @Šjor Bepo ! You got a fantastic side and there was hardly anything between it!
Congrats boys, messi lucky there is norunnng in drafts
Cheers mate!
Well played mate!
Didn't think we were likely to win this as you and Theon probably had the best spread of individual quality across your XI of all the quarter-finalists. Zebec (will sadly remain a largely unknown quantity due to lack of footage) and Kante (current player not named Ronaldo or Messi) were always likely to cost us in comparison.
Cheers, mate! Yeah putting up Messi against Kante in that zone gave us a big advantage.
Nevertheless fantastic effort on your side and Di Stefano in particular had the "glue" that it takes to field that awesome front 4 without losing much work rate and graft in the process.