B2B Draft SF: MJJ vs 2mufc0
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
The peak version.
There is no denying pele is class and that will probably happen during the match. The question is which side will cause more damage.
Sorry @MJJ I have to post this as its relevant and the best draft post I've seen in this forum.
WAS PELE THE MOST COMPLETE ATTACKER OF ALL TIME?
How does one determine what makes a player complete? or in this instance an attacker complete?
In the overall sense, one would easily make reference to someone like Di Stefano who was able to participate in the defensive phase of the game in addition to the build up (midfield) phase and the attacking phase but when limiting it to the question of the most dangerous and complete operator in the final third.. it becomes tougher - which players could claim to have mastered the following arts or possess the following attributes:
Shortlist for most complete attacker:
Long-range shooting
Now, alot of players on that list have obviously scored a range of long-distance goals but I would argue R9, Cruyff, Van Basten can instantly be ruled out as evidence of their long-range prowess isn't as pronounced as the others. Some like Zico who clearly had great set piece ability and could score from range tended to choose not to and majority of his goals result from dribbles into box/being a fox in the box.. so for me from open play Eusebio, Messi stand out.. with the former having a cannon of shot off either foot and Cristiano is also a great threat from range (though his efficiency is questionable). Pele for me is right up there, and I'd have him just behind Messi and alongside Eusebio. Lets not forget his attempt from the halfway line too.
Long-range passing (spreading play,crossing)
An area for me where Pele falls short. His style of play just didn't incorporate long range passing/crossing, as he preferred shorter passes for quick-fired combination play. In this category, Messi, Maradona, Zico reign supreme though crossing wise - for the outside of the foot, I'd probably give it to Cruyff and CR7 is underrated in this respect too.
Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)
Whilst you'd expect all of these footballers to be A* at this, for me R9, CR7 and Eusebio fall slightly short here. Sort of footballers who were prone to losing the ball under pressure due to the high octane nature of their game and the sheer directness of their play. The rest are as gold standard as it gets, supremely intelligent footballers under pressure.
Heading
Cristiano, Van Basten are real stand outs from this list and everyone else falls short (though Messi makes a decent fist of it to be fair) but Pele absolutely matches them in this regard and is recognised as one of the GOAT headers in the game, some brazillians would argue the greatest leap ever.
Set-Pieces
Now Zico stands out as probably the best of all time, but in terms of ruling players out.. R9, Van basten can certainly be as they're not renowned for free-kick brilliance. Pele is criminally underrated for his set-piece prowess. He is 5th on all time list of set-pieces scored (70+ free-kicks scored during his career) Whilst he didn't possess the sublime grace of a Zico in this regard, he was a threat from a variety of ranges due to his sheer power and accuracy.. mastering the lace knuckleball technique 50 years ago..but also capable of the more deft 'falling-leaf' technique from closer range too.
Controlling the build up (control of tempo)
Whilst I wouldn't place Pele at the top of the list in this regard alongside the likes of Maradona/Di Stefano/Cruyff, he definitely had the ability to control a tempo of a game and was a ball-magnet. He had a playmakers mindset in the final third, in contrast to CR7, R9 and knew when to accelerate or slow a game down in the final third which kept opponents guessing as to when he'd go for the kill.
Killer passes in the final third
Pele was an absolute master in this regard.. Jairzinho goal in 1970 as well as Carlos Alberto goal in the final. Two iconic assists in the same tournament which have stood the test of time and they were just the tip of the iceberg. Once again the same culprits probably come up short, CR7 for example is very average IMO when it comes to killer passes. Whilst this is a highly contested category, for me Pele has the perfect blend of insane imagination, flair technique and efficiency of execution to reign supreme in this category.
Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)
Now that is just one aspect of finishing, but it is fair to say with a reputed 1000 goals to his name.. Pele has to go down as one of if not the most versatile finisher of all time. I'd have him alongside Zico, Van Basten and Messi as my favourite finishers in that list of players.. any situation in the box, they have all the tricks in the locker to make the ball land in the back of the net.. But the first two and Pele - could also do it with either foot effortlessly.
Dribbling (body feints, tricks)
In football you tend to get guys who either excel at the classical lace dribbling, with slaloming runs and use of body swerves to weave through opponents or you get guys who are the 5* skill masters and like to embarrass and confuse opponents with their street skills. Very rarely do you find a guy who possesses a blend of both.. Dinho in his prime perhaps, Maradona to an extent but for me Pele in his prime combined all the best attributes you want as a dribbler.. both simple, yet superfluous and entertaining in equal measure. He could body swerve with the best, yet he was a pioneer in bringing street skills.. that Brazilian magic to the big stage.
First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)
Now this is where guys like Cruyff, Pele, Eusebio and Di Stefano distinguish themselves from Messi, Maradona and Zico. They could hold the ball up as good as your best strikers, and play with a man up behind them as well as win tough physical encounters by outmuscling opponents not just out-thinking them. For example, the way Messi regularly got snuffed out by sides like Chelsea.. I can't see that happening to Pele, who eventually proved he could dominate a physical defensive side for example Italy in 1970. His first touch was simply sublime and allied to his athleticism made him virtually unstoppable at times.
Movement off the ball/Timing of runs
We have recently seen from CR7 just how important this attribute is. He is a GOAT footballer in this regard. For me Pele's performances in the 1970 World Cup were reminiscent of recent Cristiano performances, in that he knew his body wasn't the powerhouse it once was but through his sheer ability to read the attacking third, and the ability to time runs and pick up space.. he was an incredible goal threat. The way he times this run and makes the goalkeeper look silly.. iconic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UzRsvCsC4c
Pace, Power and Agility
The original Ronaldo is probably the greatest force of nature the game has ever seen, and the two portuguese powerhouses Ronaldo and Eusebio were also fine physical specimens.. but Pele is right up there and IMO with his superior sense of balance/agility, arguably eclipses all of them as the perfect footballing specimen from a physical perspective. That is what gave him that God-like quality which transcends the likes of Messi/Maradona.. they seem like demi-gods, the most gifted humans ever due to their diminutive stature and mortal nature, whereas Pele is truly divine in that sense. He just seems to have it all.
Ambidextrous
Messi, Maradona, Puskas and probably Cruyff (who had a penchant for preferring the outside of the foot) probably fall short when compared to the others in this regard. Pele dare I say it, is arguably one of the most ambidextrous player in history, he has zero hesitation in unleashing shots with his weaker foot (bit like Cristiano) which is incredible considering he's from the 60's. He was like Bobby Charlton in this respect and even in his other videos, he doesn't hesitate to play killer passes with the weaker foot either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGiLXL0RmRY
SUMMARY
I'd say long range passing aside, Pele pretty much nails every other aspect of being an elite attacker. I wish I'd seen more of Di Stefano in his physical prime to see if he can also be a real competitor, I'd say Messi is an outstanding challenger despite his physical deficiencies and lack of a top tier right foot but O Rei do Futebol is truly the indisputed king for me.
Credit : Raees
WAS PELE THE MOST COMPLETE ATTACKER OF ALL TIME?
How does one determine what makes a player complete? or in this instance an attacker complete?
In the overall sense, one would easily make reference to someone like Di Stefano who was able to participate in the defensive phase of the game in addition to the build up (midfield) phase and the attacking phase but when limiting it to the question of the most dangerous and complete operator in the final third.. it becomes tougher - which players could claim to have mastered the following arts or possess the following attributes:
- Long-range shooting (curl, power)
- Long-range passing (spreading play, crossing)
- Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)
- Heading
- Set-Pieces
- Controlling the build up (control of tempo)
- Killer passes in the final third
- Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)
- Dribbling (body feints, tricks)
- First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)
- Movement off the ball/Timing of runs
- Pace, Power and Agility
- Ambidextrous
Shortlist for most complete attacker:
- Messi
- C. Ronaldo
- R9
- Cruyff
- Pele
- Van Basten
- Di Stefano
- Zico
- Maradona
- Puskas
- Eusebio
Long-range shooting
Now, alot of players on that list have obviously scored a range of long-distance goals but I would argue R9, Cruyff, Van Basten can instantly be ruled out as evidence of their long-range prowess isn't as pronounced as the others. Some like Zico who clearly had great set piece ability and could score from range tended to choose not to and majority of his goals result from dribbles into box/being a fox in the box.. so for me from open play Eusebio, Messi stand out.. with the former having a cannon of shot off either foot and Cristiano is also a great threat from range (though his efficiency is questionable). Pele for me is right up there, and I'd have him just behind Messi and alongside Eusebio. Lets not forget his attempt from the halfway line too.
Long-range passing (spreading play,crossing)
An area for me where Pele falls short. His style of play just didn't incorporate long range passing/crossing, as he preferred shorter passes for quick-fired combination play. In this category, Messi, Maradona, Zico reign supreme though crossing wise - for the outside of the foot, I'd probably give it to Cruyff and CR7 is underrated in this respect too.
Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)
Whilst you'd expect all of these footballers to be A* at this, for me R9, CR7 and Eusebio fall slightly short here. Sort of footballers who were prone to losing the ball under pressure due to the high octane nature of their game and the sheer directness of their play. The rest are as gold standard as it gets, supremely intelligent footballers under pressure.
Heading
Cristiano, Van Basten are real stand outs from this list and everyone else falls short (though Messi makes a decent fist of it to be fair) but Pele absolutely matches them in this regard and is recognised as one of the GOAT headers in the game, some brazillians would argue the greatest leap ever.
Set-Pieces
Now Zico stands out as probably the best of all time, but in terms of ruling players out.. R9, Van basten can certainly be as they're not renowned for free-kick brilliance. Pele is criminally underrated for his set-piece prowess. He is 5th on all time list of set-pieces scored (70+ free-kicks scored during his career) Whilst he didn't possess the sublime grace of a Zico in this regard, he was a threat from a variety of ranges due to his sheer power and accuracy.. mastering the lace knuckleball technique 50 years ago..but also capable of the more deft 'falling-leaf' technique from closer range too.
Controlling the build up (control of tempo)
Whilst I wouldn't place Pele at the top of the list in this regard alongside the likes of Maradona/Di Stefano/Cruyff, he definitely had the ability to control a tempo of a game and was a ball-magnet. He had a playmakers mindset in the final third, in contrast to CR7, R9 and knew when to accelerate or slow a game down in the final third which kept opponents guessing as to when he'd go for the kill.
Killer passes in the final third
Pele was an absolute master in this regard.. Jairzinho goal in 1970 as well as Carlos Alberto goal in the final. Two iconic assists in the same tournament which have stood the test of time and they were just the tip of the iceberg. Once again the same culprits probably come up short, CR7 for example is very average IMO when it comes to killer passes. Whilst this is a highly contested category, for me Pele has the perfect blend of insane imagination, flair technique and efficiency of execution to reign supreme in this category.
Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)
Now that is just one aspect of finishing, but it is fair to say with a reputed 1000 goals to his name.. Pele has to go down as one of if not the most versatile finisher of all time. I'd have him alongside Zico, Van Basten and Messi as my favourite finishers in that list of players.. any situation in the box, they have all the tricks in the locker to make the ball land in the back of the net.. But the first two and Pele - could also do it with either foot effortlessly.
Dribbling (body feints, tricks)
In football you tend to get guys who either excel at the classical lace dribbling, with slaloming runs and use of body swerves to weave through opponents or you get guys who are the 5* skill masters and like to embarrass and confuse opponents with their street skills. Very rarely do you find a guy who possesses a blend of both.. Dinho in his prime perhaps, Maradona to an extent but for me Pele in his prime combined all the best attributes you want as a dribbler.. both simple, yet superfluous and entertaining in equal measure. He could body swerve with the best, yet he was a pioneer in bringing street skills.. that Brazilian magic to the big stage.
First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)
Now this is where guys like Cruyff, Pele, Eusebio and Di Stefano distinguish themselves from Messi, Maradona and Zico. They could hold the ball up as good as your best strikers, and play with a man up behind them as well as win tough physical encounters by outmuscling opponents not just out-thinking them. For example, the way Messi regularly got snuffed out by sides like Chelsea.. I can't see that happening to Pele, who eventually proved he could dominate a physical defensive side for example Italy in 1970. His first touch was simply sublime and allied to his athleticism made him virtually unstoppable at times.
Movement off the ball/Timing of runs
We have recently seen from CR7 just how important this attribute is. He is a GOAT footballer in this regard. For me Pele's performances in the 1970 World Cup were reminiscent of recent Cristiano performances, in that he knew his body wasn't the powerhouse it once was but through his sheer ability to read the attacking third, and the ability to time runs and pick up space.. he was an incredible goal threat. The way he times this run and makes the goalkeeper look silly.. iconic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UzRsvCsC4c
Pace, Power and Agility
The original Ronaldo is probably the greatest force of nature the game has ever seen, and the two portuguese powerhouses Ronaldo and Eusebio were also fine physical specimens.. but Pele is right up there and IMO with his superior sense of balance/agility, arguably eclipses all of them as the perfect footballing specimen from a physical perspective. That is what gave him that God-like quality which transcends the likes of Messi/Maradona.. they seem like demi-gods, the most gifted humans ever due to their diminutive stature and mortal nature, whereas Pele is truly divine in that sense. He just seems to have it all.
Ambidextrous
Messi, Maradona, Puskas and probably Cruyff (who had a penchant for preferring the outside of the foot) probably fall short when compared to the others in this regard. Pele dare I say it, is arguably one of the most ambidextrous player in history, he has zero hesitation in unleashing shots with his weaker foot (bit like Cristiano) which is incredible considering he's from the 60's. He was like Bobby Charlton in this respect and even in his other videos, he doesn't hesitate to play killer passes with the weaker foot either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGiLXL0RmRY
SUMMARY
I'd say long range passing aside, Pele pretty much nails every other aspect of being an elite attacker. I wish I'd seen more of Di Stefano in his physical prime to see if he can also be a real competitor, I'd say Messi is an outstanding challenger despite his physical deficiencies and lack of a top tier right foot but O Rei do Futebol is truly the indisputed king for me.
Credit : Raees
Ranking of Pele's versions
4. 1958 Pele
3. 1970 Pele
2. 1960s Pele
1. Raees Pele
My favorite draft post till date that.
4. 1958 Pele
3. 1970 Pele
2. 1960s Pele
1. Raees Pele
My favorite draft post till date that.
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I see no reason why this version would not be brilliant with Maradona, Puskas and this Pele is another question however.
It seems like I have been defending 2mufc0's side and attacking MJJ however Nilton Santos at left back seems to me to be the biggest issue on the pitch. I just don't see that diamond working without a functioning left side
Nilton wasn't a bombing down the full back agree but he can provide a presence down the left side, he was actually one of the first attacking full backs in history, in the modern day I think he would be a lot more attacking. But imo this issue also applies to MJJ with Breitner, esp with Ronaldinho who wasn't a classic winger to provide width.
Breitner gives more than Nilton going forward and Dinho is more comfortable wide left than Pele. It's not ideal I'm either team but unfortunately worse in yours
Again I would say they played in different eras so you have to take that into account when comparing.
And to be honest this team isn't built for wide play and crosses into the box. It's such a close game where imo the genius of Pele and Maradona will decide it, even through that strong core (though I believe Schwarzenbeck is a good route to goal).
You cant change what a player is, I cant pick somebody like burgnich and be like he will be more attacking in today's era.
Comparing the lack of width on offer by Santos vs breitner and ronaldinho. Both your CBs have bad memories of Ronaldo so schwarzenbeck is not the only weakness on the pitch.
How is cafu going to be providing width when he is up against ronaldinho and breitner? How is zito dealing with Zico? Who is stopping matthaus?
The peak version overlaps with Maradona’s positioning IMO. At his peak and from what I’ve seen in videos from that time - there are some in historic YouTube channels for Santos - he was pretty central dribbled from deep and was very direct. The 70s version was more of the same but naturally off his physical peak.
He often said that during his peak he used to assist and drop back a lot which also is there with videos from that era.
Diamond helps in terms of formation but will still put him at the tip of it at his peak.
Enough about my opponent, time to enjoy some joga bonito.
Think eras should be taken into consideration. Had him in a 4-2-3-1 but wasn’t really well appreciated unfortunately in the attacking phase. Would imagine even less so in a diamond.
If we take into consideration the eras I certainly can see him as an attacking full back nowadays.
There’s obviously a lot of potential for overlap in a Diego/Pele team, but I reckon this set up is as close to optimal as you can get. Maradona with a strong midfield platform behind him, Pele reprising his peak early 1960s Santos role at inside-left. Pele’s completeness and proven ability to gel with other 10s and 9s helps to glue it together.
I probably have a different view on Puskas than the majority of this forum. To me his greatest strength is unraveling his left foot at goal. In the modern game he’d most likely be a centre forward in a 4-3-3. He played in an entirely different era in gung ho attacks, and he could drop into the hole with ease, but I do not see any compelling reason why he should play behind another centre forward or be placed further away from goal to diminish that awesome finishing power.
Now I think there’s an argument that Puskas and Pele could swap sides, opening up that left flank a little more, while Pele’s multi-facetedness means he’s fairly flexible in his positioning. That would be my main (minor) quibble, but the blend between the three of them is lovely. Both teams look absolute quality to be fair, as do the other semi-finalists - must be the most stacked set of XIs we’ve had in any draft at this stage.
Aye, I agree with all of that. I've never quite seen the inherent dysfunction in a Maradona/Pele team that others have referred to. On the most basic level, Diego is more creator than goalscorer, and Pele the opposite. You'd expect Maradona to typically drop deeper and wider to pick up the ball than Pele, with Pele not impinging on him in those areas or jostling with him to be the main long-range passer or tempo-setter in the earlier stages of the attack. Pele obviously has the 1970 team to justify pairing him with pretty much any playmaker, but Diego tends to get pigeonholed here. I don't think there's any necessity for him to be the only genius in a team of skivvies - off the field he's been as fanboy-ish as any of us draft forum neckbeards regarding his love for the likes of Rivelino and Bochini, and on the field he performed brilliantly in his early career alongside Brindisi in a fluid attack, and Brindisi seems to have been as dominant a player as anyone in an Argentinean domestic game that revered the lone, supreme playmaker.
Puskas looks as at home as a lone No. 9 as he does in any other role in the modern game, although he doesn't look a great fit here ahead of Diego and Pele, where you'd probably want a grafting, selfess line-leader of some sort, maybe an Elkjaer, Drogba or Careca. Tbh both teams look like they've just plonked in as many GOATs as possible, so I just went for the one that tickled my fancy most after a few beers.
This would be a fantastic game to watch. 
Voted just to see the score as SF's votes are void anyway.
Voted just to see the score as SF's votes are void anyway.Yeah I believe there needs to be a bit of nuance. MJJ mentioned Burgnich but Nilton was completely different, he was a lot more attacking for that era, he wasn't seen as a defensive full back.
Some more info on Nilton, I think it's completely wrong that he's been portrayed as a left sided Djalma.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/nilton-santos-footballer-8974048.html
- The Complete History of the World Cup.
Imo Nilton's World Cup CV is pretty impressive for a full-back - in 1958 a goal against Austria and an assist for Pele in the final. Even in the 1962 final at 37, he came close to scoring against Czechoslovakia.
It's a shame we don't have footage of his earlier career, I think the footage we got of him was late in his career and he was playing a more reserved role in that Brazil side to balance out Garrincha's free role on the other side. This seems to have unfairly defined him on here.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/nilton-santos-footballer-8974048.html
- The Complete History of the World Cup.
Imo Nilton's World Cup CV is pretty impressive for a full-back - in 1958 a goal against Austria and an assist for Pele in the final. Even in the 1962 final at 37, he came close to scoring against Czechoslovakia.
It's a shame we don't have footage of his earlier career, I think the footage we got of him was late in his career and he was playing a more reserved role in that Brazil side to balance out Garrincha's free role on the other side. This seems to have unfairly defined him on here.
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Some more info on Nilton, I think it's completely wrong that he's been portrayed as a left sided Djalma.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/nilton-santos-footballer-8974048.html
- The Complete History of the World Cup.
Imo Nilton's World Cup CV is pretty impressive for a full-back - in 1958 a goal against Austria and an assist for Pele in the final. Even in the 1962 final at 37, he came close to scoring against Czechoslovakia.
It's a shame we don't have footage of his earlier career, I think the footage we got of him was late in his career and he was playing a more reserved role in that Brazil side to balance out Garrincha's free role on the other side. This seems to have unfairly defined him on here.
Why would he be less attackign to balance out Garrincha? Surely the fullback behind him will be more reserved.
Brazil shifted to a back 4 only in 1958...and that freed Nilton. Prior to that he was playing as a LCB in a back 3 (WM). I don't think you'd his earlier versions more attacking than after 1958. His peak was 1958-62 (closer to '58), I reckon.
I've read he actually started out as an attacker early in his career. The point I was making was that he wasn't a Vogts/Djalma type of full back he was more than capable of contributing in the attacking phase. I think his profile is incorrect on here with drafters.
Unlucky could have gone either way. GG.
I was searching a lot when I picked him before for some footage at Botafogo as he was 33 and above from 1958 on which is unrealistic to expect of him to be in the best physical shape at the time.
Any sources for that LCB role you mentioned before 58'?
You could at least type your own congrats
But its perfect.
https://squadnumbers.wordpress.com/2015/07/26/brazil-and-their-numbering-maze/
And in a couple of other link you can see Brazil employed WM till just before 1958. Palmeiras and Santos clubs were experimenting with back 4, but it was only in WC, it became a norm. Nilton in Botafago was still predominantly a WM based LCB (which he was still very good at and considered top caliber).
In earlier research, I realized that when he was nutmegged by Stanley Matthews in 1956, it was as a LCB in WM. Will look for links a bit later.
An attacking fullback was revolutionary at that time, but again compared to modern standards I presume it'd still be a long way off current wingbacks. At best, I'd consider Nilton as a balanced fullback by modern standards probably at par with Tommy Gemmell and maybe even Evra.
I think that's fair, clearly is an attacking threat which is what I was trying to get accross.