[Adnan]

I listed other defenders other than Konate and Upamecano too. And there are more who are younger and better. We need one of the better defenders in the game given we are United.

This hope for Axel needs to be based on something tangible at the end of the day. And the fact that something something Harry Maguire isn’t amongst those things in my opinion.

I just think that for too long, a future at United has been talked up by some fans based on a parallel version of Tuanzebe, and the real person is showing to not be the same player. It’s like some watched Axel in the academy and thought at the time that he would go on to be a future United player, and nothing that happens on the pitch from then on seems to bear any relevance to their prediction from 5 or 6 years ago. Axel needs to start making his own case, in real life, not just have ardent youth followers do it for him. We don’t need anyone to do that anymore, as he is actually here, in the present, part of our squad. As such, he can easily be assessed, and I don’t think anyone can tell me that what they see is a Manchester United calibre centre half. He only becomes one when an alternative narrative is applied to reality, one that they have probably held on to for years and have committed to.

Similar happens with Angel Gomes. He was talked about from so young and many has been sold on a future and seem to have forgotten that the player is the one who actually needs to go out and walk it. Even playing for Boavista there are some who refuse to accept that he’s not of the right level, and I’m sure the same lot will be saying so until his late 20s when intermittent clips of a skill he did playing in Holland somewhere circulate on Twitter.

You also mentioned Kabak and De Ligt with Kabak making a abundance of errors at Schalke which has seen the club rooted to the foot of the BuLi, but he's not the only issue at the club. De Ligt has also made a plethora of errors and was benched by young Demiral who Juve bought for around €12m until he suffered a injury. Watching full games and watching highlights of said players makes a big difference in evaluating their current abilities.

It's Solskjaer himself who has gone on record and said that he rates him highly. There's also reports via The Athletic where they state that the coaching staff with in the club rate him extremely highly. Then you also had the testimony of Dean Smith at Villa who said that his advice to Solskjaer would be to integrate him into the United first team. And the common denominator in all this is that all these guys have worked with the player on a daily basis and are professionals in making big decisions within their field. And the reason I used Harry Maguire as a example was because with your reasoning he wouldn't have stood a chance.

If Axel isn't good enough the coaching staff won't have a problem moving him on. But he isn't the issue in the team because he rarely starts a game. The issue is the players who are regulars in the first 11 who some seem to think are indespensible to the cause. I've said for a while now that we need a new CB to partner Maguire and I haven't changed my stance and neither do I want one of the current options already at the club to partner him in the long term. But for me Axel can develop into a capable back up CB. And from the youth team i'm looking at Willy Kambwala as the next big hope in the coming years.

And as far as people rating Angel Gomes or any other young hopeful youngster is fine because it's not the fans who make key decisions at the club. This is a discussion forum where people are gonna be wrong about players and you can take myself as a example of someone who has made numerous claims over the years about various players around the world, but people always pull me up about the ones I get wrong and hardly mention the ones i'm correct about.

 

[Blades1889]

Didn’t he struggle to get a game there and wasn’t getting selected?

I seem to remember him getting games as I recall lots of villa fans hyping him and Mings up.

 

[SATA]

I think it's safe to say we won't see him again for the next ten or so games or now. Not until the Europa league resumes

 

[MattofManchester]

Personally don't think the second goal was his fault. He held his position, as did Pogba around that area. Not sure what he's supposed to do.

Bruno and Martial not getting back and Sheffield having free players to pass all over that area let them run amok.

We didn't do basics right and got punished for it.

 

[hobbers]

Personally don't think the second goal was his fault. He held his position, as did Pogba around that area. Not sure what he's supposed to do.

His position was abysmal even without considering that he should obviously be closing it down. Wasn't even between the ball and the goal.

That whole attack sequence would have been easier for us to defend if we'd replaced him with a bag of sand. Or a cone. That says enough.

 

[lex talionis]

If Lindelof or Bailly are fit, they should always start over Tuanzebe.

Axel could have done better on the goal, but a calamity of errors led to the no man’s land position he found himself in. We shouldn't be too hard on him.

 

[Rozay]

Loan him or play him. Probably lean towards loan moreso, we have Lindelof/Bailly as cover and need to buy another centre-back anyway.

Well we tried loaning him already. He came back not good enough to play. We could loan him again, I agree. Or he could take the chances when he gets them and warn more games, that is also another option. I have seen tonnes of young defenders come in and put in great performances in my life, it’s just a made up fact in my opinion that regular games are required for a defender to play well. At the top level, chances must be taken, otherwise you will not simply just get regular games. Even on loan, you need to prove what you can do. A loan doesn’t automatically equal 35 starts. We have loaned several players who cannot get into the team. Basically, if you are running around looking for a free ride, you won’t find one. You need to impress when you get minutes, or alternatively hope you are the only option available due to injuries.

 

[Bwuk]

We’d be as well as loaning him to someone like Sheffield before the window closes. He needs to play regularly at his age, and he’s our forth choice CB.

Maguire is always fit; and generally so is Lindelof. Bailly is third choice.

 

[Grande]

Personally don't think the second goal was his fault. He held his position, as did Pogba around that area. Not sure what he's supposed to do.

Bruno and Martial not getting back and Sheffield having free players to pass all over that area let them run amok.

We didn't do basics right and got punished for it.

His pretty specific main error was that after he and Maguire switched places, he was the de facto left CB. He then went on to position himself to the right as if Maguire was still to his left, this occured not once, but twice. When he is the leftmost CB, it’s also fairly basic that he needs to close down the free player in the left quadrant. Looked like he lost his brains in the heat of the moment, unfortunately.

His position was abysmal even without considering that he should obviously be closing it down. Wasn't even between the ball and the goal.

That whole attack sequence would have been easier for us to defend if we'd replaced him with a bag of sand. Or a cone. That says enough.

Not, really, as he blicked the first shot and gave us a new chance at stopping it. Doubt a cone would have managed that.

 

[Rozay]

You also mentioned Kabak and De Ligt with Kabak making a abundance of errors at Schalke which has seen the club rooted to the foot of the BuLi, but he's not the only issue at the club. De Ligt has also made a plethora of errors and was benched by young Demiral who Juve bought for around €12m until he suffered a injury. Watching full games and watching highlights of said players makes a big difference in evaluating their current abilities.

It's Solskjaer himself who has gone on record and said that he rates him highly. There's also reports via The Athletic where they state that the coaching staff with in the club rate him extremely highly. Then you also had the testimony of Dean Smith at Villa who said that his advice to Solskjaer would be to integrate him into the United first team. And the common denominator in all this is that all these guys have worked with the player on a daily basis and are professionals in making big decisions within their field. And the reason I used Harry Maguire as a example was because with your reasoning he wouldn't have stood a chance.

If Axel isn't good enough the coaching staff won't have a problem moving him on. But he isn't the issue in the team because he rarely starts a game. The issue is the players who are regulars in the first 11 who some seem to think are indespensible to the cause. I've said for a while now that we need a new CB to partner Maguire and I haven't changed my stance and neither do I want one of the current options already at the club to partner him in the long term. But for me Axel can develop into a capable back up CB. And from the youth team i'm looking at Willy Kambwala as the next big hope in the coming years.

And as far as people rating Angel Gomes or any other young hopeful youngster is fine because it's not the fans who make key decisions at the club. This is a discussion forum where people are gonna be wrong about players and you can take myself as a example of someone who has made numerous claims over the years about various players around the world, but people always pull me up about the ones I get wrong and hardly mention the ones i'm correct about.

Kabak has made errors in a struggling Schalke this season, but he has also shown brilliance on a consistent basis with the same Schalke in the past, and with Stuttgart and Galatasaray, which is why he had made two big money loves by 20. De Ligt has also shown his quality for Ajax consistently. So if they are out of form now it matters little, because we have SEEN what they can do in senior football. Axel is 23 and we’re still here talking y ‘what people say’ about him. What people say is no longer relevant, because he’s been out on the grass enough times in senior football, and can be judged on his actual performances now. And those performances have not been good enough, and because of that, I couldn’t care less what Dean Smith says, or Ole says. If you ask Ole tomorrow, he would one hundred percent tell you that Dan James and Jesse Lingard are top players who have a lot to offer Manchester United. Thankfully, their level is not a mystery and we don’t have to rely upon the words of a player’s coach, or a reporter from the Athletic. I’ve seen Tuanzebe play, enough times, in real life - and he is barely ever impressive, and for this reason ONLY I do not rate him.

And yes, if Axel isn’t good enough, he will be moved on. And he will be, eventually, he just hasn’t been yet, just like a number of players who will be moved on at some point, but haven’t been yet. But again, we don’t have to use that as a metric. If he WAS good enough, he’d be playing football for us, and while doing so, he would be being good enough! There’s no alternate league or level where a player is able to be good enough, while being able to be good enough in competitive senior games. If a thousand people tell me Dan James is good enough, I’d tell them they are lying, because if he was, then he would be, and he isn’t, because I’ve literally seen that he isn’t.

I’m also aware that fans can be wrong about a player, myself included. That was not my point, my point is that fans have blindspots when it comes to academy players. While I get things wrong on some players, like you, I think I also get my fair share right, and like you, I also think people are naturally slower in pointing out when I do. And the ones I often get right are concerning young academy players, because I’m not swayed by any ‘history of the club’ romance, I’ll look through it and just call a player’s level for what I see it to be. I had plenty of arguments about Williams on here last season too. First because I said that in ideal circumstances, he’d have been on loan instead of in the team, and then later because I said he’s never a United level player. Which I maintain he isn’t. I loved Axel when he was in the academy, he was class, but in 4 or 5 years of senior football, I don’t think anyone can tell me that he’s shown anything that remotely resembles a centre half who should be at one of the world’s top clubs.

When it’s all said and done though, I do love a good football chat with you when we have the time. We often agree, and on the other occasions, you make a great sparring partner!

 

[Grande]

Nope. He wasn't great, but I don't think he was particularly bad. He gets most of the blame because he was the "odd one out" in our rotation. Hence, people think we lost because of that.

I think it unreasonable to hang him out to dry. He did a lot of good stuff, was good in his duels for the main part, quite good handling the ball, good one on one. Four bad involvements, so not a good game, but no howlers really. He was not close to being one of our worst performers on the night.

He is difficult to assess at this point, after long spells with injury he is still very inexperienced in spite of his age, and he has only ever had a long row of games in The Championship three years ago, were he did well. Now he gets thrown in here and there. Played great vs PSG, had a mare against Demba Ba, have been sturdy defensively as full back a few times, offering little forward. I think he looks a bit nervous and can lose his head abit when the heat is on, which is a problem he needs to solve, but not unsolvable. If anyone remembers the first 25 games of Lindelöf or Fred, you know how differently a player can look if nervous and unsettled. He needs to go the mile himself though, and there’s no guarantee he’ll make the step at United. I’m in no haste to judge personally. What he does well, he does very well.

 

[Red_toad]

Can't believe the guy is getting racially abused on social media. Can't believe how some people react to a loss, it's just uncalled for, as is all the other usual tripe that is tolerated towards players.

 

[Red00012]

We’d be as well as loaning him to someone like Sheffield before the window closes. He needs to play regularly at his age, and he’s our forth choice CB.

Maguire is always fit; and generally so is Lindelof. Bailly is third choice.

Lindelof is playing one game followed by a rest for the next he clearly isn’t fit. Bailly was injured midweek . Tuanzebe isn’t going anywhere.

 

[Jaykespeare88]

Got held off by Mcgoldrick far to easily at times, generally out of sorts, bad positioning a couple of hospital balls, need to be ready to come into the side and take his chance when given.

 

[Adnan]

Kabak has made errors in a struggling Schalke this season, but he has also shown brilliance on a consistent basis with the same Schalke in the past, and with Stuttgart and Galatasaray, which is why he had made two big money loves by 20. De Ligt has also shown his quality for Ajax consistently. So if they are out of form now it matters little, because we have SEEN what they can do in senior football. Axel is 23 and we’re still here talking y ‘what people say’ about him. What people say is no longer relevant, because he’s been out on the grass enough times in senior football, and can be judged on his actual performances now. And those performances have not been good enough, and because of that, I couldn’t care less what Dean Smith says, or Ole says. If you ask Ole tomorrow, he would one hundred percent tell you that Dan James and Jesse Lingard are top players who have a lot to offer Manchester United. Thankfully, their level is not a mystery and we don’t have to rely upon the words of a player’s coach, or a reporter from the Athletic. I’ve seen Tuanzebe play, enough times, in real life - and he is barely ever impressive, and for this reason ONLY I do not rate him.

And yes, if Axel isn’t good enough, he will be moved on. And he will be, eventually, he just hasn’t been yet, just like a number of players who will be moved on at some point, but haven’t been yet. But again, we don’t have to use that as a metric. If he WAS good enough, he’d be playing football for us, and while doing so, he would be being good enough! There’s no alternate league or level where a player is able to be good enough, while being able to be good enough in competitive senior games. If a thousand people tell me Dan James is good enough, I’d tell them they are lying, because if he was, then he would be, and he isn’t, because I’ve literally seen that he isn’t.

I’m also aware that fans can be wrong about a player, myself included. That was not my point, my point is that fans have blindspots when it comes to academy players. While I get things wrong on some players, like you, I think I also get my fair share right, and like you, I also think people are naturally slower in pointing out when I do. And the ones I often get right are concerning young academy players, because I’m not swayed by any ‘history of the club’ romance, I’ll look through it and just call a player’s level for what I see it to be. I had plenty of arguments about Williams on here last season too. First because I said that in ideal circumstances, he’d have been on loan instead of in the team, and then later because I said he’s never a United level player. Which I maintain he isn’t. I loved Axel when he was in the academy, he was class, but in 4 or 5 years of senior football, I don’t think anyone can tell me that he’s shown anything that remotely resembles a centre half who should be at one of the world’s top clubs.

When it’s all said and done though, I do love a good football chat with you when we have the time. We often agree, and on the other occasions, you make a great sparring partner!

I completely agree with you that Axel should be judged by the standards set by the young CBs you've mentioned. But IMHO we shouldn't confine those standards to just Axel but also use the same standards to judge our regular starters. And if you did that then you'll find that the standards have dropped considerably post Vidic and Ferdinand and the bar is much lower now than it ever was. So if the standards are to be met and maintained then we must look at the regular first team CBs and improve upon them which is the bigger issue imo.

Yes I agree, Ole would say the likes of Dan James and Lingard are top players because that's good management and maintains a camaraderie and team spirit within the dressing room. But what he said about Axel went even further when he described him as a future United Captain. Now that doesn't mean Axel will go on to become a mainstay in the team, but rather the people who are paid to evaluate player potential at the club feel he is more than capable of doing so. My personal opinion is that he could develop into a back up option at the club because I don't believe he's as good say a Ibrahima Konate who I believe is comfortably better than not only Axel but also better than our regular starting CBs.

I can't speak for everyone regarding academy players but i'm someone that has followed our youth teams for many years and I've been critical of numerous players that have come through the ranks. Some even say i've been overly critical of certain players. I completely agree with the notion that a certain standard has to be maintained if we're to challenge both domestically and in Europe. And if we're honest with ourselves then that standard hasn't been met post Vidic and Ferdinand and we've spent around 150m just on CBs since and it's still being reported by the more reliable media outlets that we're prioritizing the signing of a CB with particular attributes/characteristics for the summer window which I agree with.

And it's always a pleasure discussing all things Man Utd with you Rozay. And like you say we normally do agree on most things about the club and our discussions have always been interesting/engaging imo which enhances the discourse whether we agree or disagree.

 

[romufc]

I feel for Tuanzebe, when he plays, he is stuck with a midfield who offers no protection. The Besiktas game and this just showed why we need a top quality CDM.

 

[Rake]

While some people say he won't feature for quite a while, I think that he must start again soon. Maybe vs Southampton.

He was absolutely terrible vs Fulham but I think most people will agree that what we saw is not his actual level.

 

[Rozay]

While some people say he won't feature for quite a while, I think that he must start again soon. Maybe vs Southampton.

He was absolutely terrible vs Fulham but I think most people will agree that what we saw is not his actual level.

You can say that with an out of form Rashford or an out of form Martial (although he rarely gets such liberties) because it is not difficult to refer back to a better example of this ‘actual level’ that you speak of. These are players who have shown a far higher level with regularity with the first team.

How can anyone say that the level that Axel is showing is not his actual level? When was the actual level you are referring to? On the contrary, I think the hypothetical level that many seem to speak of regarding Tuanzebe is the level that is not his actual level. It is all projection and hypothesis. The one he’s actually showing on the pitch is the actual level, as he’s never shown much better at all.

 

[Grande]

You can say that with an out of form Rashford or an out of form Martial (although he rarely gets such liberties) because it is not difficult to refer back to a better example of this ‘actual level’ that you speak of. These are players who have shown a far higher level with regularity with the first team.

How can anyone say that the level that Axel is showing is not his actual level? When was the actual level you are referring to? On the contrary, I think the hypothetical level that many seem to speak of regarding Tuanzebe is the level that is not his actual level. It is all projection and hypothesis. The one he’s actually showing on the pitch is the actual level, as he’s never shown much better at all.

You certainly have a point about the ‘imagined version of a talented player’, and how it works is often that we see young players in snippets and if they’re very young we multiply the good bits in our head, project them endlessly into the future, and ignore the weak bits as temporary.

Then again, when they reach a certain age, we tend to do the opposite, notice and remember mistakes and downplay the good they do, and often dismiss them as ‘having showed their level’ despite most CB will be at their best in the second half of their twenties - and thats if they’ve had 200 games of regular playing time to learn from. There are exceptions, but that’s the norm for top CB development.

I get the impression you are underestimating both the qualities Axel have in fact shown a number of times with regards to duel strength when the ball is on the ground, speed, and quality on the ball. And also underestimating the scope for improvement on some of the clearly weak stuff he has shown - positioning, rapid decisions, airial timing and nervousness leading to mistakes. Most of this is highly improvable given support and game time.
My opinion from what I’ve seen, is that Tuanzebe in a couple of years could develop into a top class CB despite his current weaknesses. Wether it’s likely, I couldn’t tell. He’ll need games and mistakes to learn from. Can we afford it? A fair question, and again, I think you need to be behind the scenes to make a qualified assumption. His weaknesses could improve very quickly, or very slowly. I certainly understand why someone wouldn’t want to start him against Southampton, or would rather sell than keep him a couple of years to develop him.

Personally, thinking about what I have seen from him, half an hour here, ten minutes there, as an 18 year old against Arsenal, as a 20-year old for Villa and lately against Mbappe and Neymar, I think those qualities are worth going for, and that his weaknesses in decision making and aerial duels are worth working on. And I like his style, and he gives me a good vibe. But of course there’s a limit to how many goals I’ll stomach seeing him be a part of.

 

[edgecutter]

Needs a consistent run of games, but you can understand why Ole won't be playing him for the forseeable. Really needs a loan move with a decision about whether he should be a starting Cb net season.

 

[tjb]

If he had an off game due to positioning I can understand. The big problem for me is that he's terrible at dealing with aerial duels, worse than even Lindelof. In England, that is a terrible trait and one we can't afford to invest in.

 

[Hester_manc]

I see him as a player who has the level to play for United. Unfortunately, he has a lot of injuries. So many that he has almost never had a stable season. Therefore, I no longer believe in him as a future player for United.

 

[Rake]

You can say that with an out of form Rashford or an out of form Martial (although he rarely gets such liberties) because it is not difficult to refer back to a better example of this ‘actual level’ that you speak of. These are players who have shown a far higher level with regularity with the first team.

How can anyone say that the level that Axel is showing is not his actual level? When was the actual level you are referring to? On the contrary, I think the hypothetical level that many seem to speak of regarding Tuanzebe is the level that is not his actual level. It is all projection and hypothesis. The one he’s actually showing on the pitch is the actual level, as he’s never shown much better at all.

Nothing I`ve seen of him so far suggest he is as bad as his showing in this game. He might not become the best CB in the world but he is certainly better than what we saw against Fulham. The bolded line seems to suggest that he has been equally terrible in most of his outings, which is not the case.

I`d agree that some posters are hyping his potential unnecessarily.

 

[BFernandes]

Knew it would finish 3-3 when he came on.

Every time he plays, something goes seriously wrong.

Leicester, Sheff U. Was only on tonight for 2 mins and gave away the freekick that led to the goal. He's fecking shit.

Fuming.

 

[Idxomer]

Why?!!

 

[11101]

Since he came into the seniors he's done absolutely nothing to suggest he is anywhere near good enough. Seems like every game he makes at least one stupid error.

 

[#07]

Has made a big error basically every time he has played since PSG away. Just not up to it.

 

[Based Adnan]

30 seconds left to play so lets dive in like a thicko and let them put a set piece into the box because we're clearly very good at defending them

Brainless decision

 

[Bojan11]

Stupid freekick to give away.

 

[NinjaFletch]

He’s absolutely atrocious. We knew this, however, when he fecked up and cost as a few weeks ago. With Matic sitting on the bench what possibly could be the rationale for bringing him on again.

Awful management.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Can’t be blaming him surely.

Made a tactical foul near the halfway line & our ‘leader’ drops deep to keep Everton players onside.

We were fecked by our GK & Captain tonight but I’m sure the twitter lot will be out in full force.

 

[slored1]

Can’t be blaming him surely.

Made a tactical foul near the halfway line & our ‘leader’ drops deep to keep Everton players onside.

We were fecked by our GK & Captain tonight but I’m sure the twitter lot will be out in full force.

Bollocks. If he doesn't foul him Moss blows the whistle. Unbelievably stupid from Tuanzebe.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Woozy fecker, again.

 

[SAFMUTD]

He's done here

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

Has to be one of the worst ever two minute substitute appearances by any football player.

A stupid, unnecessary free-kick to give away which has cost us now

 

[Jackal981]

Might as well give the oppo extra 1 goal instantly if he plays in. Is he even championship caliber ?

 

[RedC]

He is crap, all he seems to do is commit stupid fouls and get yellow cards. Shouldn't be anywhere near the pitch.

 

[Adam-Utd]

This guy is a bad luck curse. Every time he’s on the pitch we make mistakes. There’s only room for 1 brain dead defender in AWB

 

[mattunited1978]

He's shite

 

[NK86]

He is absolutely shite. Needs to feck off.