Jotted for future drafts
Auction-Trade Madness Draft - R1: Oaencha vs Raees/Invictus
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Not sure I agree with the way Panucci has been written off here when defenders of a lesser calibre but similar skill set have excelled against Messi.
Arbeloa was perfect as a nimble inverted full back more reknowned for his ability to man mark and defend as part of a unit and he managed to mark Messi out of a game not only as a youngster at his most twisty best but then trusted by Jose to take on peak Messi. He was a right back who went left back when playing against Messi.
Panucci is a much more accomplished defender than Arbeloa, not only was he an acclaimed CB but he had a long career at right back ... a key cog at teams like Real Madrid as well as Milan, and clearly capable of playing across the line and more importantly recognised as a very solid defender first and foremost. So this notion that he's an incompetent defender who Messi will walk past is untrue. Will he keep Messi totally quiet - no, but is he a difficult obstacle of course.. he's pretty much on paper a Messi kryptonite in terms of his skillset (CB/FB hybrid who is comfortable out wide and in central areas and right footed). As part of what is a very good defensive unit and a strong defence, Panucci can do a decent job here IMO - it isn't overselling him to state that.
Why is no one talking about Maxwell vs Kubala? A guy with no business end pedigree against a guy voted as Barcelonas GOAT.. a player also possessing supreme dribbling ability and a brilliant goals to game ratio. He will tear Maxwell a new arsehole and I personally think Maxwell is less equipped defensively to deal with him than a guy who started at full back twice in two CL finals (in which he won them both).
Arbeloa was perfect as a nimble inverted full back more reknowned for his ability to man mark and defend as part of a unit and he managed to mark Messi out of a game not only as a youngster at his most twisty best but then trusted by Jose to take on peak Messi. He was a right back who went left back when playing against Messi.
Panucci is a much more accomplished defender than Arbeloa, not only was he an acclaimed CB but he had a long career at right back ... a key cog at teams like Real Madrid as well as Milan, and clearly capable of playing across the line and more importantly recognised as a very solid defender first and foremost. So this notion that he's an incompetent defender who Messi will walk past is untrue. Will he keep Messi totally quiet - no, but is he a difficult obstacle of course.. he's pretty much on paper a Messi kryptonite in terms of his skillset (CB/FB hybrid who is comfortable out wide and in central areas and right footed). As part of what is a very good defensive unit and a strong defence, Panucci can do a decent job here IMO - it isn't overselling him to state that.
Why is no one talking about Maxwell vs Kubala? A guy with no business end pedigree against a guy voted as Barcelonas GOAT.. a player also possessing supreme dribbling ability and a brilliant goals to game ratio. He will tear Maxwell a new arsehole and I personally think Maxwell is less equipped defensively to deal with him than a guy who started at full back twice in two CL finals (in which he won them both).
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Secondly are you really going to be arguing about votes of a manager when they are irrelevant- reason I voted for you is that the two of us voting for our own side would make it look like we've got more votes which is surely more unfair to you .. anyway noted and changed.
Wholeheartedly agree.
Come on, we are rating these players at their peak here. Panucci will be absolutely embarrassed against Messi.
Since when did Panucci become this defensive liability all of a sudden.. you're talking about him like he's a Marcelo, a flying wing-back.
He's been selected by many Drafters in the past purely on the basis of his renowned defensive solidity and his versatility, and is exactly the sort of non-Maldini tier, but lesser calibre defender you'd trust to put in a decent effort of trying to keep Messi quiet.
Trying being the operative word. No one is saying he will keep Messi quiet all game (don't think anyone could for that matter) but will he just bend over and mistime tackles and just look clueless all game, of course not.. he's a top italian full back, who has been trusted by guys like Capello (to face up against Stoichkov in the 1994 CL final) and the 1998 Final (defending against Del Piero at his peak) down his flank again. He won both finals, and kept a clean sheet in both games. Clearly anyone that is basically writing him off, has not watched enough of Panucci or just jumping on the bandwagon of assuming he can't put in a decent shift here.
Yes it is Leo Messi, but this isn't Djimi Traore.. it is a well-respected world class full back, who has performed and excelled at the very highest level. Much more than can be said about Maxwell - a european journeyman who whilst I quite like on the ball, you wouldn't want him defending against a dynamo like Kubala.
@Raees
Maybe it’s my love of Messi, or my interpretation of how we assess there match ups and what “peak” means. I think Messi at his absolute best doesn’t make many mistakes and goes past most defenders in history 9/10 on either side. That’s how good he is. Peak Messi doesn’t have a problem with right footed players playing left back.
Maybe it’s my love of Messi, or my interpretation of how we assess there match ups and what “peak” means. I think Messi at his absolute best doesn’t make many mistakes and goes past most defenders in history 9/10 on either side. That’s how good he is. Peak Messi doesn’t have a problem with right footed players playing left back.
Then why did 'Peak' Messi fail to break down Inter Milan? or struggle against a side like Chelsea?
To assume Messi will 100% score in this game is also a mistake as he is playing against a very solid defensive unit, marshalled by guys like Scirea/Perfumo and not to mention we have a tough midfield with guys like Zito/Vidal and even Masopust is capable of defensive shift.
It is much more easier for Pele and Kubala to make things happen in this game than it is for Messi, who is up against a nippy tactically astute full back (with experience of seeing out the threats of guys like Del Piero/Stoichkov) who also happens to be part of a much more secure defensive/midfield unit.
Anyway that is my final piece on that matter.. if you don't want to recognise Panucci's achievements, go watch his performances in the CL final of 1994 and 1998.
Because at that game he wasn’t at his peak, but in this game he is? Isn’t that the point of this whole thing?
Don’t be such a knob pal, I’m not saying that at all, just basing my decision on what is supposedly the criteria to base decisions on.
No, you take the peak of say three years and that peak takes into account their flaws/strengths, best and weakest performances and you compare that against others, and also the team context of who they are playing with and against. Even if it was a peak of one year, you'd do the same. You don't just pick a peak performance and say this is how Messi is going to be in the game, scoring left right and centre.
You can't just assume Messi scored from halfway line against Getafe, this will happen in this game. You're completely missing the wider context of the game. Very silly way of looking at it.
We haven't resorted to such arguments and we have Pele in our side, instead we've put together a constructive argument that Pele is likely to find it easier against his defensive set up without making it look like he's just going to walk through guys like Albertini and Gattuso 99% of the time (which he probably could in all fairness but it is unrealistic).
If thats the criteria then Pele is going to run riot too.
No, you take the peak of say three years and that peak takes into account their flaws/strengths, best and weakest performances and you compare that against others, and also the team context of who they are playing with and against. Even if it was a peak of one year, you'd do the same. You don't just pick a peak performance and say this is how Messi is going to be in the game, scoring left right and centre.
You can't just assume Messi scored from halfway line against Getafe, this will happen in this game. You're completely missing the wider context of the game. Very silly way of looking at it.
We haven't resorted to such arguments and we have Pele in our side, instead we've put together a constructive argument that Pele is likely to find it easier against his defensive set up without making it look like he's just going to walk through guys like Albertini and Gattuso 99% of the time (which he probably could in all fairness but it is unrealistic).
Agreed.
@Raees you are fighting the wrong battle, there is absolutely no point of questioning Messi and tbh i can also see him destroy Panucci, you back a GOAT attacker against anyone if the team gives him a platform to perform and the platform is pretty decent IMO
I can see him having a good understanding with both Netzer and Suurbier, with Neymar he has a great partnership as they showed at Barca and Batistuta is an okay partner, this is where oaencha could have done much better, not quality but style wise.
What you should be doing is making a case for Pele, you guys have a much superior midfield and there is no specific plan for Pele other then maybe put Gattuso on him which is an absolute joke. Pele will have an easier game and most likely the better game out of him and Messi. Add to that they attack a defence that has Maxwell and F. Couto(both decent players, but for this level they are the weak link).
I can see him having a good understanding with both Netzer and Suurbier, with Neymar he has a great partnership as they showed at Barca and Batistuta is an okay partner, this is where oaencha could have done much better, not quality but style wise.
What you should be doing is making a case for Pele, you guys have a much superior midfield and there is no specific plan for Pele other then maybe put Gattuso on him which is an absolute joke. Pele will have an easier game and most likely the better game out of him and Messi. Add to that they attack a defence that has Maxwell and F. Couto(both decent players, but for this level they are the weak link).
Ok that seems fair, which 3 year version of Panucci am I assessing, since you’ve given me champions league final performances to watch that are 4 years apart.
I don't like either centreback pairing, let alone when you factor in who they face. Scirea-Perfumo have too much game-reading and lack the stopper physicality Batistuta calls for. Conversely, Vidic-Couto have that in spades but the Pelé-Kubala combo calls for a better reader.
Messi and Neymar would do very well, but I'm not convinced about their service. Your midfield will get taken out of this game and Vidic/Couto/Gattuso aren't going to be bypassing it with a great ball.
Absolutely agree there. Panucci wasn't a full time left back on that side either - he could fill there but wasn't the Brehme/Benarrivo type that played pretty much equally well on either side to make a case for him against a GOAT attacker.
Think Messi would roast Panucci but in the same time Pele will do the same to Gattuso. It's normal to have battles over the pitch that go one way and the other team would have advantage elsewhere..
Cheers, mate. Good game all things considered...very evenly contested. You had a great starting XI (one of the stronger ones in Round 1 in fact), and led by someone who's in contention for #1 spot in the pantheon of greats, so it's a bit of a shame you didn't get to explore the reinforcements to build an even better team. Will definitely be rooting for your team in the next draft!
Game is over now but still feel Panucci got dealt a very raw deal. Quite a few of YouTube vids with Panucci touches seem to suggest he even played left back at Madrid too so yes he was predominantly a right back but he really looks natural at left back too and could put in some killer crosses with his left. Will post here when I get the chance.
Looks very pacy and generally astute in a tactical sense. So I do think this writing him off completely to the point he's a liability is unfair as he is one of the better lower tier full backs in a defensive sense and the flank he's on doesn't affect his defending imo.
I know this has been discussed before but for me I absolutely believe flank matters when it comes to defending. Especially in an all time draft.