Auction-Trade Madness Draft - QF: Pat vs Sjor/TRoss

[Chesterlestreet]

That'll be Pedernera's defensive brief when you're attacking down your right wing, but yeah, I'd have to concede that Zanetti will cause him problems there that he wasn't accustomed to dealing with. He was the tactical mastermind behind that River Plate team, and in my (limited) understanding they were prototypically modern in terms of attacking and defending as a unit, so I'd imagine he'd be alert and receptive to the threat Zanetti poses, but I doubt he'd ever have came up against an attacking full back of Zanetti's calibre.

I sometimes think we tend to make too much of such «prototype» precedents, i.e. calling the Wunderteam or the Machina exponents of «total football» is arguably a bit misleading.

But that's a digression, really: Di Stefano, iirc, mentioned Pedernera's completeness as a footballer on several occasions, e.g. when comparing him to - among others - Maradona. Di Stefano's point - as I recall it - was that Pedernera, unlike other famous offensive orchestrators, was genuinely complete - as in, he could handle himself in purely defensive situations to an extent you don't associate with a brilliant, technically superb playmaker.

Easy to get the Superman impression from such anectodal praise, of course, but Di Stefano certainly rated Pedernerna extremely highly, naming him the best he'd ever seen - and the comparison part of it is at least interesting, it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider him defensively sound for a player of his type.

 

[Enigma_87]

To be fair his point of reference was not 1982 team, but 1994/98, which was built to make the best out of the front 2

Yeah, my reference was that the team on show here looks closer to the 1982 team rather than Pat's own example. To me this forward line(and the 4-2-2-2 in 82) looks more similar to the Santana's 4-2-2-2 rather than Zagallo or Alberto Pereira's Brazil NT.

In 94 Zinho and Mazinho were indeed more utility players that could set up the stage, but Pedernera and Piksi are more of a focal midfield/attacking players who you would give the ball to and build the side around. Both incredibly versatile of course but the 90's Brazil side were rather unorthodox formation often switching through 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 with Mauro Silva/ Dunga holding in a midfield line and then Sampaio and Dunga in 98.

With Pedernera there instead of Giles I think Pat would need a more possession based approach rather than the front 2 as focal point from last game against ID. With the current set up I'd probably have Iniesta/Gerson/Busquets having the lions share of the possession and somehow restrict Pat's game as with Pedernera he's more suited to a possession based midfield and attack. The balance just ain't there for me.

 

[Enigma_87]

I sometimes think we tend to make too much of such «prototype» precedents, i.e. calling the Wunderteam or the Machina exponents of «total football» is arguably a bit misleading.

But that's a digression, really: Di Stefano, iirc, mentioned Pedernera's completeness as a footballer on several occasions, e.g. when comparing him to - among others - Maradona. Di Stefano's point - as I recall it - was that Pedernera, unlike other famous offensive orchestrators, was genuinely complete - as in, he could handle himself in purely defensive situations to an extent you don't associate with a brilliant, technically superb playmaker.

Easy to get the Superman impression from such anectodal praise, of course, but Di Stefano certainly rated Pedernerna extremely highly, naming him the best he'd ever seen - and the comparison part of it is at least interesting, it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider him defensively sound for a player of his type.

I always thought that was Moreno out of La Máquina you are describing there? Pedernera's role was more of a false 9 in modern terms - used to drop back, confuse the markers and open up spaces for others, and whilst there was a lot of fluidity in that front 5, Moreno was the one with more defensive functions who also covered wide?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I always thought that was Moreno out of La Máquina you are describing there? Pedernera's role was more of a false 9 in modern terms - used to drop back, confuse the markers and open up spaces for others, and whilst there was a lot of fluidity in that front 5, Moreno was the one with more defensive functions who also covered wide?

Both did. It was a old school WM morphing into a more modern attacking 3-4-3

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Went for Sjor here. I liked his balance and synergy much better across the side as a whole while Pat's side still seems a bit Frankenside - just throw Ro-Ro out there and cobble together some random supporting players.

 

[Enigma_87]

Both did. It was a old school WM morphing into a more modern attacking 3-4-3

I'm more looking into this:

and also that front 5 rarely played together -

Athough La Maquina is best remembered for the memorable forward line of Munoz, Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna and Lostau, these five players only played 18 league matches together, with 'Mono' Deambrossi and Alberto Gallo also alternating with them on the attack.

Pedernera then was replaced in 46' or so by young Di Stefano, who unlike his Real Madrid(or even Colombian version) was more of a complete center forward himself at the time.

and another quote:

Adolfo Pedernera, the centre-forward, would withdraw to midfield, confounding the central defenders who were supposed to mark him and opening spaces for the other forwards (as Hidegkuti would do for Hungary in the following decade).

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I'm more looking into this:

and also that front 5 rarely played together -


Pedernera then was replaced in 46' or so by young Di Stefano, who unlike his Real Madrid(or even Colombian version) was more of a complete center forward himself at the time.

and another quote:

This was how I always pictured La Maquina

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Let’s be honest, we are basing our understanding of those river plate players on the limited understanding of other people’s interpretations.

 

[Enigma_87]

Let’s be honest, we are basing our understanding of those river plate players on the limited understanding of other people’s interpretations.

Unfortunately, yes. Most of the content and information comes from journos, past players and team mates. There is little to no video evidence and it's pretty hard to come up with actual positional or tactical interpretation of their game when it comes to pre-war players.

There is little video evidence which confirms that he's a pretty flair player from that time and La Maquina in terms of style and approach are predecessors to the Total Football we've seen later with both Hungary and of course Holland.

A little video profile on Pedernera, but I have no clue what is said about him.

 

[idmanager]

Closest comparison to Pedernera's influence on the squad wise, I'd say was Messi after he was moved to the central role with usually more centrally oriented players flanking him and roaming around.
It was designed to get the best out of Messi and the same goes for Pedernera based on what I have read.
I don't think the inside left role works, especially with Ro-Ro who themselves would be the stars of the team around whom the rest seems to be rightly built.
I don't think even a false 9 role by removing Stojkovic works and doesn't bring the best out of any of the three.

Coming to team Sjor, while I like the idea, I am not sure if Gerson has it in him to pull a Xavi.
I always rated Xavi as the most important player in that setup. Its Iniesta that is the one that can be replaced but Xavi is irreplaceable.
Spain's Xavi-Xabi-Busq midfield is a testament to how Xavi was the one who set the tempo and dominated stuff.
A good idea, but needs Xavi badly.

 

[sincher]

You love Busquets?

That's a vote swinger in itself, surely.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Congratulations @Pat_Mustard

Well deserved win against a team of mercenaries.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@idmanager id have busquets as most important and xavi as best player out of the three in that midfield. All three are absolute geniuses imo

Btw congrats on the win pat

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I always thought that was Moreno out of La Máquina you are describing there?

No - Pedernera.

Not my description, though, just quoting Di Stefano from memory.

Role wise, he operated in multiple positions (CF, inside forward, winger) in that fluid Machina five, but nominal positions doesn't say much - the players interchanged, that was the whole idea.

However, Di Stefano wasn't talking about his role but about his traits as such, the genuinely complete nature of his game: He could play all over the park, ADS said (or words to that effect).

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager id have busquets as most important and xavi as best player out of the three in that midfield

I rate Busquets very highly, but calling him the most important player is pushing it IMO.
Sure he was an important piece of the puzzle while probably being the least flashiest of that squad(s), but I wouldn't put it past a few other players to do the same job quite well.
Not even the legendary names over the decades, even Carrick for that matter would have been amazing in that role. Busquets was brilliant at what he did and luckily for him, at the right place at the right time.

 

[Gio]

@idmanager id have busquets as most important and xavi as best player out of the three in that midfield. All three are absolute geniuses imo

Btw congrats on the win pat

As much as Busquets' one-touch smoothness oiled the midfield, they were still an incredible unit there with Toure at the base in 2008/09. While Busquets brought a little more slick interplay, Toure's presence and strength were also important. Xavi was the system. Not only did the system hit its peak when he hit his peak, it faded as he faded and broke down when he moved on.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yeah, my reference was that the team on show here looks closer to the 1982 team rather than Pat's own example. To me this forward line(and the 4-2-2-2 in 82) looks more similar to the Santana's 4-2-2-2 rather than Zagallo or Alberto Pereira's Brazil NT.

In 94 Zinho and Mazinho were indeed more utility players that could set up the stage, but Pedernera and Piksi are more of a focal midfield/attacking players who you would give the ball to and build the side around. Both incredibly versatile of course but the 90's Brazil side were rather unorthodox formation often switching through 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 with Mauro Silva/ Dunga holding in a midfield line and then Sampaio and Dunga in 98.

With Pedernera there instead of Giles I think Pat would need a more possession based approach rather than the front 2 as focal point from last game against ID. With the current set up I'd probably have Iniesta/Gerson/Busquets having the lions share of the possession and somehow restrict Pat's game as with Pedernera he's more suited to a possession based midfield and attack. The balance just ain't there for me.

I don't see it all tbh. None of the characteristic positional interchanges of that 1982 team (Junior sliding into midfield from LB, Falcao pushing up to AM, Eder becoming a de facto winger to make space for Zico to be the primary goal threat) are features of my set up. Also, Voronin/Bonhof are surely more akin stylistically to an upgraded Mauro Silva/Dunga or Cesar Sampaio/Dunga than Falcao/Cerezo.

Zinho and Mazinho were a comparatively limited AM combo in 1994, but the more expansively gifted playmaker Rai started the tournament as captain and was only replaced as he was in poor form. It's not as if Pereira had Pedernera/Stojkovic level options for those AM positions and played Zinho/Mazinho instead for tactical balance - he just had to cut his coat according to his cloth. The 1998 team suggests that the formation can accommodate more gifted and expressive AMs, with Leonardo and Rivaldo taking the Mazinho/Zinho roles and Rivaldo having an excellent tournament.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Congratulations @Pat_Mustard

Well deserved win against a team of mercenaries.

Btw congrats on the win pat

Cheers lads. I told him as much via PM, but I loved Sjor's team and it would have been better for the draft if he'd went through, as I have no idea how to freshen this team up whereas feck knows what magic Sjor would have conjured up in the transfer market

 

[Ecstatic]

Ronaldo and Romario are unplayable in this context.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't see it all tbh. None of the characteristic positional interchanges of that 1982 team (Junior sliding into midfield from LB, Falcao pushing up to AM, Eder becoming a de facto winger to make space for Zico to be the primary goal threat) are features of my set up. Also, Voronin/Bonhof are surely more akin stylistically to an upgraded Mauro Silva/Dunga or Cesar Sampaio/Dunga than Falcao/Cerezo.

Zinho and Mazinho were a comparatively limited AM combo in 1994, but the more expansively gifted playmaker Rai started the tournament as captain and was only replaced as he was in poor form. It's not as if Pereira had Pedernera/Stojkovic level options for those AM positions and played Zinho/Mazinho instead for tactical balance - he just had to cut his coat according to his cloth. The 1998 team suggests that the formation can accommodate more gifted and expressive AMs, with Leonardo and Rivaldo taking the Mazinho/Zinho roles and Rivaldo having an excellent tournament.

Perhaps it's only Pedernera mate, who I don't find particularly complimenting in your setup, either that or the way you lined up in the previous game which I liked a lot

Congrats on the win!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Perhaps it's only Pedernera mate, who I don't find particularly complimenting in your setup, either that or the way you lined up in the previous game which I liked a lot

Congrats on the win!

Cheers mate. Aye, I thought Pedernera would be divisive and thought a lot about whether or not to include him. I liked my set up in the first round too but it didn't seem to be universally adored by any means, and I was bored and wanted to switch things up.

 

[antohan]

I've no idea why Pedernera is getting singled out here, he would be absolutely fine albeit in a more specific/constrained role than used to be required of him. It's not like he is being stuck in a midfield two, just a greater weight on midfield/playmaking duties.