I would also disagree that our team lacks any width both Stoichkov and Wilkes can work the channels and with our fluid system Gullit will find himself out wide at times.
Auction-Trade Madness Draft - QF: crappy/Indnyc vs 2mufc0/Theon
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Agree he started as a left winger but his peak was when he moved centrally. He preferred to play in the center to score more. Rivaldo and him will form a perfect partnership.. Both being left footed doesn't mean they can't combine well
No comment on their defence? I think the likes of Silva, Abidal and their wingbacks are getting an easy ride against our GOAT attackers.
Yeah, I just want some views
Thanks!! Just started watching them
We would have preferred to have a better wingback than Irwin but Alaba is as good as it gets for modern wingbacks. I'll quote @crappycraperson for our views on him
I rate Abidal quite highly, but as a unit they are equally exposed against Cruyff/Stoichkov/Gullit etc., yes.
I would argue a defense of Burgnich, Koeman and Montero is far more exposed against Riva, Rivaldo and Maradona
Hmm, disagree with the focus on Koeman and our defence there personally. The Barcelona Dream Team won four La Liga's in a row, with Koeman a regular lone defender in Cruyff's 3-4-3 with the likes of Ferrer and Sergi as fullbacks next to him - significantly weaker defensively than the gritty Montero / Burgnich side backs he's partnered with here.
In fact both Burgnich and Montero are better pure defenders than anything the opposition sport in their side.
And both were picked for their familiarity in the hybrid-FC/CB positions that they're playing in. I think the defence is tactically well formed and provides Koeman with much better protection than he had at Barcelona (which lest we forget was successful).
It's not. I'd pick Montero-Koeman-Burgnich over Abidal-Hierro-Silva, but I don't think that they are good enough to stop c/i's attacking unit with Diego Maradona at the center of it. Same is true for the other side though
Disagree there.. Montero was a great defender but so was Abidal.. For everything he did, Abidal was just as good if not better.. I would say Heirro is the best pure defender among all the defenders.
That’s nonsense to be honest. Abidal was a solid and well-rounded possession based fullback, but he wasn’t a pure defender the way Montero was. His partnership with Ferrara at Juve was one of the great 90’s defensive units.
And the best pure defender is clearly Burgnich. Followed by Montero imo.
Let's look a bit more closely at how effective this total football / dream team 343 actually marriage really is with these players -
- Wrong choice of full wide defenders - Indync made an excellent point i forgot, neither Montero or Burgnich are first choice picks for any high line defence. The opposition has seemingly picked a pair that would work in a 5 man backline rather a 3 man one. @Moby correctly identified Burgnich as an odd pick for total football tactic and Montero is much of the same, given he worked best in Juve's typical italian defensive system. There is simply no evidence to suggest that these are the player who can excel outside a packed defensive system to take on likes of Rivaldo, Riva and Maradona 1v1 on a counter.
- Can it be Dutch style total football without marauding full backs? NO - When I had Rinus Michels as a pick in the manager draft, I watched some Ajax games from 70s under him and a big feature of the games was the attacking nature of the full backs and the wide positions they almost occupied in every attack, stretching the play. Who is the playing this role here? The opposition has smartly tried to co-opt both Dutch 74 theme and Barca dream team, IMO the former is completely out of the picture here without anyone to play the role Krol and Suurbier played.
- Is Neeskens playing the same role as Holland 74? No- I am 100% certain that with Gullit in there, Neeskens simply can't play the same role as he did in that team.
- False 9, lack of proper AM in Barca dream team 343 -In the video below the importance of "6" is explained. A role played by Bakero and Laudrup during their time in that team.
Here playing Cryuff as a false 9 and using Gullit in the same position seems like an unnecessary modification to the tactic. It would have been better to play a forward and a proper AM behind him. Cryuff himself could have played that AM position but opposition probably wanted to play him in false 9 position no matter. If that was so then they simply should have built up Dutch 433 from Ajax days or the used the exact version of modification to it Cryuff made it ala 343. Mis mash of both only looks nice on paper with big names but is simply not as effective as either.
- Haan in the Pep role from dream team - Here is an video which explains the importance of "4" in the system (1.15 onwards)
Haan as a deep lying play maker who will also fall into the defensive line to cover for Koeman? He should be counted alongside Beckanabuer and Lothar, if he can play that kind of role.
TL;DR - The system neither works as a homage to dutch 74 due to extra body in MF and lack of attacking full backs; nor as a Barca dream team due to wrong choice of wide defenders, lack of playmaker like Pep and unnecessarily trying to fit in a false 9 Cryuff in there.
- Wrong choice of full wide defenders - Indync made an excellent point i forgot, neither Montero or Burgnich are first choice picks for any high line defence. The opposition has seemingly picked a pair that would work in a 5 man backline rather a 3 man one. @Moby correctly identified Burgnich as an odd pick for total football tactic and Montero is much of the same, given he worked best in Juve's typical italian defensive system. There is simply no evidence to suggest that these are the player who can excel outside a packed defensive system to take on likes of Rivaldo, Riva and Maradona 1v1 on a counter.
- Can it be Dutch style total football without marauding full backs? NO - When I had Rinus Michels as a pick in the manager draft, I watched some Ajax games from 70s under him and a big feature of the games was the attacking nature of the full backs and the wide positions they almost occupied in every attack, stretching the play. Who is the playing this role here? The opposition has smartly tried to co-opt both Dutch 74 theme and Barca dream team, IMO the former is completely out of the picture here without anyone to play the role Krol and Suurbier played.
- Is Neeskens playing the same role as Holland 74? No- I am 100% certain that with Gullit in there, Neeskens simply can't play the same role as he did in that team.
- False 9, lack of proper AM in Barca dream team 343 -In the video below the importance of "6" is explained. A role played by Bakero and Laudrup during their time in that team.
Here playing Cryuff as a false 9 and using Gullit in the same position seems like an unnecessary modification to the tactic. It would have been better to play a forward and a proper AM behind him. Cryuff himself could have played that AM position but opposition probably wanted to play him in false 9 position no matter. If that was so then they simply should have built up Dutch 433 from Ajax days or the used the exact version of modification to it Cryuff made it ala 343. Mis mash of both only looks nice on paper with big names but is simply not as effective as either.
- Haan in the Pep role from dream team - Here is an video which explains the importance of "4" in the system (1.15 onwards)
Haan as a deep lying play maker who will also fall into the defensive line to cover for Koeman? He should be counted alongside Beckanabuer and Lothar, if he can play that kind of role.
TL;DR - The system neither works as a homage to dutch 74 due to extra body in MF and lack of attacking full backs; nor as a Barca dream team due to wrong choice of wide defenders, lack of playmaker like Pep and unnecessarily trying to fit in a false 9 Cryuff in there.
Last edited:
Let's agree to disagree on this. I rate Hierro very highly and believe him to be among the best defenders of his generation and is certainly not out of place in a list of best defenders of all time
Neither can play in a high defensive line. You know as much but don't expect you to admit it here.
@harms @Gio @Isotope @idmanager @green_smiley would especially like your thoughs on above post by myself. How do you envision opposition team working? Do you buy Haan playing the Pep role and also falling back in defensive line to cover for Koeman?
We actually ditched the replica 1974 total football tactic so your post is in vain.
We are not trying to copy Netherlands 1974 like he’s claiming.
Secondly Haan played as sweeper dropping back into defence is exactly his game. He was also a great passer so no idea why you are fixated with him, he can play this role no problem.
We are not trying to copy Netherlands 1974 like he’s claiming.
Secondly Haan played as sweeper dropping back into defence is exactly his game. He was also a great passer so no idea why you are fixated with him, he can play this role no problem.
"Our team is inspired by Holland '74 and the Barcelona 90-94 Dream Team under Johan Cruyff"
No Haan can't play the Pep role. I know why you have to keep claiming that he can but I doubt anyone would buy it as such.
Neither can play in a high defensive line. You know as much but don't expect you to admit it here.
Why could Montero not play in a high-line? You sound so sure, it's such a silly definitive statement imo.
I actually checked with the Caf's favourite Uruguayan who advised that Montero could play in a high-line.
I just don't really get the whole thrust of your post to be honest. It's not as if all your players are playing in the exact same tactical set up they played in real life. Irwin as a right wingback is a really poor fit and Keane was best as a midfield box-to-box dynamo, not a 3-5-2 pivot behind Maradona, with not a winger in sight.
You are claiming we are playing like for like when we aren’t."Our team is inspired by Holland '74 and the Barcelona 90-94 Dream Team under Johan Cruyff"
No Haan can't play the Pep role. I know why you have to keep claiming that he can but I doubt anyone would buy it as such.
Good post by @Invictus on Haan in a previous game , don’t listen to Crappy he clearly doesn’t know who he was:
See this match thread for more discussion on Haan :
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/40s-draft-qf3-joga-bonito-13-12-invictus.411032/#post-18329840
Let's also take the time to appreciate the genius that was Arie Haan. Just to illustrate the completeness of his midfield and defensive game, not many players can boast the ability to start as a midfielder, and a central defender in consecutive World Cup Finals.
He defends, he scores screamer like these:
And he can be a significant presence in possession from midfield:
....
See this match thread for more discussion on Haan :
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/40s-draft-qf3-joga-bonito-13-12-invictus.411032/#post-18329840
What does inspire by it means? You mention that and play Cryuff in a false 9 role, so ofcourse I am going to doubt check if it actually works.
You guys have tried to shoe-horn Cryuff in a false 9 role from 74 team in this set up, mainly so that voters can see and check that he is in his peak role. When in reality, that is not how it would work at all.
Your Op clearly states your key players are playing either in the role they played in 74 team or the Barcelona dream team.
I’ll let @Theon respond to avoid double teaming.
This post does not contradict anything I have said so far. I have had Haan in previous drafts and I bid for him in this one. He is not someone to play the role Pep played and Cryuff envisions his "4" to play in the dream team system.
Let's not forget that defence is not a strong point of either Dutch 74 or Barca dream team system. Germans did win against them in that final when Haan was in the defence and Milan ofcourse famously exposed the defensive fralities behind the 343 in the 4-0 demolition.
Even Toure played as a CB in CL final against us. Does not mean anything.
In that match, Haan is playing in front of Perfumo and Weber which is completely different to the role he is asked to play here.. So that whole thread is pointless for his role here
It's fine.. Both Crappy and i are posting as well
"Our team is inspired by Holland '74 and the Barcelona 90-94 Dream Team under Johan Cruyff"
No Haan can't play the Pep role. I know why you have to keep claiming that he can but I doubt anyone would buy it as such.
Come on mate.
I think the point 2mufc is saying is that we aren't trying to play the exact 4-3-3 that Holland played in '74. The point there is that your comment around attacking fullbacks in the '74 set up is somewhat irrelevant.
We made the decision to go for a 3-4-3 formation wise (as Cruyff always preferred it and it seemed a good homage theme) so we moved away from the 4-3-3. In terms of width we made the call in a 3-4-3 for it to come from the offensive players (and frankly I don't see a problem there - they offer more width than the wingbacks on your side).
Now, moving formations slightly doesn't mean that we can't be influenced by the Dutch '74 team. It's not an either / or thing. Both teams played with the same philosophy and with the same architect at the heart of it (Cruyff as a player in '74 and Cruyff as a manager in '90-'94).
I think it's quite clear that the team takes a lot of inspiration from the Dutch philosophy in general and the '74 team in particular (given half the players were from that side). I think it's worth pointing out that it was a very fluid set up anyway.
It is not a remake. We do not want to play Haan as Guardiola.
If we wanted Guardiola we would have picked him.
This whole argument is really strange. I really don't get it. Its like you're using the fact that the team resembles Holland '74 or Dream Team Barcelona as an avenue for criticising anything that is slightly different.
With ball-playing ability throughout the midfield (particularly the playmaking of Van Hanegem) as well as the '74 total-football approach, Arie Haan is a better tactical fit than Guardiola. It's not as if we lack the means to transition from defence to attack.
I already made my post explaining my problems with the personnel in this formation. I stand by all of them.
- Neeskens can't play his 74 role. Cryuff in his 343 wanted midfields who can go out wide as and when needed. Neeskens can of course do that but that's not his 74 peak role for me.
- Lack of deep lying playmaker ala Pep is a problem in this 343. Haan IMO can't play that role as Cryuff envisioned it. You guys disagree, fair enough.
- I know you are not playing 433 ala Holland 74 but Cryuff in a false 9 role in this formation is not a correct fit. 74 inspiration stuff IMO is only mentioned for people to consicously/sub-consicously make a connection between that and Cryuff/Neeskens and assume them playing their peak roles in proven system when that is simply not the case here. There have been plenty of homages to dream team before, no one has in anyway tried to attach it with Holland 74 too. Why mention it all when it is not in play?
Neeskens is literally the GOAT when it comes to offensive play from the midfield position whilst drifting to the right. He could play as an attacking right back.
Lack of a deep lying playmaker is absolutely not a problem, that midfield could knock the ball around for 20 minutes before you got it back.
We're not remaking either side and Holland '74 is in play. Cruyff fits that system like an absolute dream and he's similar in style to Michael Laudrup when he played there. You watched the Cruyff 3-4-3 video posted above - listen to what he says about Laudrup and tell me Cruyff can't play that role.
He'll be roaming all over the place, peeling wide whilst Stoichkov moves up front, interchanging with Ruud Gullit or creating space for a foraging Neeskens.
Am I supposed to now assume that this is not even a homage to Barca dream team?
Actually scratch that, I agree with you, it is not. Cryuff made changes to Dutch 433 to come with the 343 with some key facets which are missing here so I am glad that this formation in anyway can not rest or use dream team's any success as an argument in its favor.
I am really not sure how to respond to any tactical points that rest upon improving Cryuff's tactics for his 343.
Yes, that's my point
Cryuff should be in Gullit's position here. Even when Laudrup or Bakero played that AM role they had presence of Salinas or Romario up front other than Stoichov or Txiki as wide forwards. If you play Cryuff in that role, as he should in this formation then you don't need Gullit at all. You are better off with a proper 9 IMO. At some point the number of bodies in MF becomes a case of diminishing returns. If Cryuff is going to play the conductor role with rest of the MF 3 then Gullit can only do so much in the same area, why play him up front for the whole duration?
I think its built around the same philosophy as the dream team which was that of scoring more than the opponents. You score 4, we will score 5.
I perhaps rate Koeman way higher than most others here based on my past experience here. In the right setup, he is a beauty to have.
And I buy the Burgnich of this game way better than that of last game. Him with Montero is good foil for Koeman in this setup IMO.
Haan is tricky if you look at it only against Maradona, but with a setup like the one you are facing, most times sheer brilliance individually can be curtailed if built the right way. And I think with that regards, they have built it brilliantly. Which is why I earlier praised the Gullit role and position here.
I don't rate Abidal as a LCB in all all time context and I disagree that he played that role when Alves jumped forward. Abidal himself would join the attack often and only in the last couple of years of his career he started playing a pure CB. Of course, he fit the role quite well with the demands of a tiki taka CB.
Irwin has been pointed enough times and I think he is simply at the wrong place.
Hierro and Silva again I don't rate as the best of their generation although some do that with Silva for some reason, I have never understood.
The team all in all lacks a solid defensive base transforming into attack. Hierro could play ball playing CB or a DM. I don't think the arrow above him serves the purpose one might expect.
I really like Rivaldo though and my love with Italian attackers is fairly obvious. So Riva works for me. Keane and Lerby are brilliant as well. But with that defense against a Dream team like well built setup, I would never convince myself that there is a win around the corner even with Maradona in there.
Cheers.
Edit: I don't necesarily think a Pep-esque figure is needed with Koeman around. Sure, it offers more attacking options and both of them exchanged positions quite beautifully, but that would be a risk in an all time context. Maybe someone more rated defensively than Haan would be better, but I don't think him not being Pep hurts the setup at all.
Last edited:
Yes, that's my point
Watch the video at 8.25 and they literally call the central forward position in the 3-4-3 "The Cruyff role, or the Laudrup role".
Cruyff then speaks for a minute about how Laudrup would drop deep from that position to create space, pick up the ball and dribble or make passes - that's Cruyff's role in an absolute nut-shell.
Here are some formations showing Laudrup at the top (a far more natural fit for a total-football than Romario by the way).
In all this, we are forgetting one of the greatest midfield generals of all time in Roy Keane. Captain fantastic!! There isn't an inch to be won when he is around
I'm not particularly sold on Gullit/Cruyff to be honest and with two LCB/RCB type of defenders at the back the team looks a bit narrow. I rate Haan and especially his versatility but a player like Maradona will certainly trouble him and he'd need plenty of support of the midfield.
Having said that as other mentioned I'd preferred a more potent attacking wise wing back on the right to stretch the opponent and create space for Maradona and Rivaldo. I'm not particularly sold on Silva vs Stoichkov and Hierro vs Cruyff both could create openings for 2mufc0/theon.
I'm not entirely sure on what is Gullit's role here when Cruyff inevitably drops deep when in possession. Perhaps attack the box? But then again apart from Stoichkov I don't see many good crossers in the team to put Gullit's presence in the box to a good use..
All in all can't make up my mind right now, two very good teams, brimming with quality, but to me with some little flaws here and there.
Having said that as other mentioned I'd preferred a more potent attacking wise wing back on the right to stretch the opponent and create space for Maradona and Rivaldo. I'm not particularly sold on Silva vs Stoichkov and Hierro vs Cruyff both could create openings for 2mufc0/theon.
I'm not entirely sure on what is Gullit's role here when Cruyff inevitably drops deep when in possession. Perhaps attack the box? But then again apart from Stoichkov I don't see many good crossers in the team to put Gullit's presence in the box to a good use..
All in all can't make up my mind right now, two very good teams, brimming with quality, but to me with some little flaws here and there.
Finally good to see Koeman get some credit he deserves around here.
I believe our biggest weakness is having Irwin at wingback but i don't see it impacting our shape or our attacking capabilities.. The midfield duo of Keane and Lerby is capable of matching their midfield.. As an attacking Trio i rate Maradona - Rivaldo - Riva up there with the very best.
With regards to the opposition, the point you made on Guiltts role is exactly the point we have been making. Here is Crappys post on it
Yes, that's my point
At some point the number of bodies in MF becomes a case of diminishing returns. If Cryuff is going to play the conductor role with rest of the MF 3 then Gullit can only do so much in the same area, why play him up front for the whole duration?
The whole team is trying to attack from the center with very little width if any.. Irwin may not be able to fully exploit it but Alaba definitely will..
Yeah, I just want some views
Good videos harms.
However these videos reinforce my earlier point about him preferring to drift left, so many times he's seen picking the ball up from the left hand side or turning the defender towards the left. So still don't think he would work with Rivaldo at all.