Lato if he cuts in is going to be faced with panucci and mcgrath, secondly who will be releasing Lato? The onus is completely on Falcao, if beckenbauer steps out his defense gets roaseted, if he stays back Pele dominates. Thats why 2mugio have been so quiet about his role, its a shady tactic but what can you do.
Auction Draft SF : 2mufc/Gio vs. Mjj
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Lato if he cuts in is going to be faced with panucci and mcgrath, secondly who will be releasing Lato? The onus is completely on Falcao, if beckenbauer steps out his defense gets roaseted, if he stays back Pele dominates. Thats why 2mugio have been so quiet about his role, its a shady tactic but what can you do.
Exactly, I have tried to pin 2mugio on beckenbauer role but they haven't responded for that reason. They know their defense doesn't work but rather than admit it, it's easier to ignore and hope voters dont read the discussion or the OP.
Probably worth watching more of that Real side then. It's quite clear he is, by some distance, their best defender in a gung-ho attacking team.
See the clearly implied attacking nature of the team held together by the lynchpin at the back.Real Madrid profile said:
The Complete History of the World Cup said:
The Telegraph said:
Out of interest, and fitting because it was Banks' funeral today, Ferenc Puskas was asked to choose his all-time world XI in the late 1970s. This is who he chose:
------Gento----------Pelé---------di Stéfano-------Garrincha
-------------------Charlton-------Bozsik
----N.Santos-----Santamaria-----Beckenbauer-----Andrade II
---------------------------Banks
Anyone who watched Franz Beckenbauer play football will know he wasn't some gung ho idiot that would abandon his defense and leave his back line exposed, so this ludicrous argument made is a strawman and not a very good tactic. Neither was he such a player that would get caught with the ball or careless with it. It wasn't Kaiser's physical ability that made him so great it was his impeccable reading of the game and organisational skills, he would elevate every player around him.
So to answer MJJ Beckenbauer will play his natural game, like he did his whole career bossing games in a 4 man defence.
So to answer MJJ Beckenbauer will play his natural game, like he did his whole career bossing games in a 4 man defence.
While that is fair enough, I have another expert who disagrees with you.
Early day equivalent of Ramos or Pique you said. The rest basically explains why he is held in high regard.
Thats your third post, so I appreciate you can't reply back but thats bs. It basically tells us nothing about his role but if he is playing as a libero and if he loses the ball which he will because he is human then you have santamaria against pele, kalle and stoickhov? Now unless beckenbauer can teleport that is going to happen through out the course of the game.
Secondly, if he is staying back that means there is nobody to stop Pele, the legend who even nutmegged beckenbauer and made him sweep the floor.
To be fair I think Falcao deserves consideration as part of a great spine, and so does Zito frankly given his anchor role in not one, but two World Cup winning midfields.
I agree, all great players and could be called a spine in most teams. I had just seen one of your team mention Beckenbauer, Maradona and muller as yours. Like I said, just pedantic.
I find watching clips like that of the greatest regarded defender of all time diving in like that crazy to see.
Imagine the roasting Jones would get pulling that move off
I find watching clips like that of the greatest regarded defender of all time diving in like that crazy to see.
Imagine the roasting Jones would get pulling that move off
Its the same way messi made boateng a mug, sometimes the attacker is simply too good for you to do anything about it and pele definitely is. Now imagine santimaria dealing with taht
Its the same way messi made boateng a mug, sometimes the attacker is simply too good for you to do anything about it and pele definitely is. Now imagine santimaria dealing with taht
Yeah I’m not doubting Beckenbauers quality. Just shows that even the best can go into panic mode and get sat down.
Pelé didn’t even seem to do much there, looks like Beckenbauer has already had enough of him.
What game is that, wouldn’t mind a look at a bit more of it
2x about Beckenbauer.
Here's how I see it: If Beckenbauer pushes into midfield, he'll create numerical superiority there. In my assessment he'll also do so only when he identifies a pocket of space or an imbalance in your structure. So the pressure would be on your team first, and I think you haven't really said how you plan to address that threat so far.
Your remarks about Kalle/Stoichkov suggest they won't track back in that situation, staying up with the oppo's defenders instead. So until you win the ball, they'd be non-factors in that scenario. A lot will depend on Pele then, will he track Beckenbauer's run? If he's not the guy to do it (can't tell), it would be basically 7 vs 7, even when 2mufc0/Gio's fullbacks stay behind to cover, as you seem to expect. You have some great defensive players in your team, but against that offensive this would still be extremly risky imo, perhaps suicidal.
So could you explain how you defend that scenario? If you win the ball, the gamble of leaving 2 players up high - or even three, depending on Pele - might well pay off, but you have to win it first.
(In case I have misinterpreted your posts, please clear up my mistake.)
Beckenbauer (as a CB/libero) didn't usually operate in midfield out of possession, except for the occasional sweeping action, or briefly when moving back from a high position during defensive transition. When you have the ball, I'd expect him to act as a central defender first and foremost. If Pele operates in midfield areas, I'd expect 2mufc0/Gio's DM to primarily deal with him.
When Beckenbauer moves into midfield, it will be during his team's possession, but for Rummenigge/Stoichkov to threaten 2mufc0/Gio's defense you need to have the ball. It's not clear to me what you expect to happen in between.
Here's how I see it: If Beckenbauer pushes into midfield, he'll create numerical superiority there. In my assessment he'll also do so only when he identifies a pocket of space or an imbalance in your structure. So the pressure would be on your team first, and I think you haven't really said how you plan to address that threat so far.
Your remarks about Kalle/Stoichkov suggest they won't track back in that situation, staying up with the oppo's defenders instead. So until you win the ball, they'd be non-factors in that scenario. A lot will depend on Pele then, will he track Beckenbauer's run? If he's not the guy to do it (can't tell), it would be basically 7 vs 7, even when 2mufc0/Gio's fullbacks stay behind to cover, as you seem to expect. You have some great defensive players in your team, but against that offensive this would still be extremly risky imo, perhaps suicidal.
So could you explain how you defend that scenario? If you win the ball, the gamble of leaving 2 players up high - or even three, depending on Pele - might well pay off, but you have to win it first.
(In case I have misinterpreted your posts, please clear up my mistake.)
Didn't get what you're arguing here, tbh.
Beckenbauer (as a CB/libero) didn't usually operate in midfield out of possession, except for the occasional sweeping action, or briefly when moving back from a high position during defensive transition. When you have the ball, I'd expect him to act as a central defender first and foremost. If Pele operates in midfield areas, I'd expect 2mufc0/Gio's DM to primarily deal with him.
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Its fro. 1968, either the world cup or the friendly they played before.
Two things. First do you think Zito alone can deal with pele? Because if it's just zito vs pele, that is the match won as pele will beat him and advance towards the defense creating a 3 vs 2 where beckenbauer if he moves out to intercept him will leave kalle and stoickhov with santamaria or if he stays back will be too late to intercept the pass.
Second, it wont create numerical superiority as I am playing a diamond. If pele moves into midfield, you have for players from 2mufc0 side and four from mine so it's even. The mixture is same too, secondly I have three ball winners in there I.e. matthaus, sammer and netto. I would back them to win the ball over anyone, zito will be sitting back so it will be beckenbauer, falcao, Maradona in a congested middle. I would expect one of stoickhov and kalle to track his run until he is in midfield at which point the closest midfielder takes over.
Also it's funny how you have written a more detailed post on beckenbauer than either of my opponents who are looking to sweep it under the rug with its beckenbauer, he will make it work.
Thanks
----- (Beckenbauer going forward)
A contradiction I see in your argument: You don't expect Zito to be a factor in the attacking movement (because he'd stay behind Beckenbauer), but earlier on you didn't count him as cover for your attackers either.
@Gio How would your team exactly provide cover & support for Beckenbauer moving up? (Djalma is already mentioned in the OP.)
----- (Beckenbauer in defense)
I also don't see defending in terms of isolated duels so much, but as a matter of closing down space in formation. From that angle, it seems that you overlook Falcao & the tucked-in fullbacks as support for Zito. It shouldn't be Beckenbauer vacating his position, except for emergencies and golden opportunities.
Maradona and Pele remain the great unknowns for me there. Can either of them be expected to help their team defensively?
This again hinges on the question if Pele can be expected to be a defensive factor in midfield or not. So the question remains: can he?
A contradiction I see in your argument: You don't expect Zito to be a factor in the attacking movement (because he'd stay behind Beckenbauer), but earlier on you didn't count him as cover for your attackers either.
@Gio How would your team exactly provide cover & support for Beckenbauer moving up? (Djalma is already mentioned in the OP.)
That's a good move, imo (I saw Rummenigge regularly making these runs in 70s footage). But if that attacker doesn't fall back permanently, it doesn't solve the problem of getting enough players behind the ball, imo. If he does, he won't threaten the defensive line in the way you laid out.
----- (Beckenbauer in defense)
In that team's defensive formation, the DM would be Zito/Falcao for me, not Zito alone or Zito + Beckenbauer moving up.
I also don't see defending in terms of isolated duels so much, but as a matter of closing down space in formation. From that angle, it seems that you overlook Falcao & the tucked-in fullbacks as support for Zito. It shouldn't be Beckenbauer vacating his position, except for emergencies and golden opportunities.
Maradona and Pele remain the great unknowns for me there. Can either of them be expected to help their team defensively?
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I’d also like to know why so many are voting for 2muGio. The players? The spine? The wingers? The tactics?
To be honest I think a lot of voting in these drafts just goes with someone being alerted to a few goats (Beckenbauer, Maradona) and the voting goes more toward who has the best collection of player names. Chuck those in a 4231 and you’re a winner.
It frustrated me in my matches that there would be like 10 votes against without a single reason, but then the opposition could have luis Ronaldo. Ah right then, no tactics or anything needed, Ronaldo is goat.
It’s also funny that I’ve used Godin and zito in a newb draft and got ripped for it as they wouldn’t be strong enough to stop the greatest, yet in the mains I see them being used and talked up a lot.
I think to win a draft, the best tactics is not to go with who you would like and think would work together but just study the players that the voters take a liking to and just cram them in a 4231.
To be honest I think a lot of voting in these drafts just goes with someone being alerted to a few goats (Beckenbauer, Maradona) and the voting goes more toward who has the best collection of player names. Chuck those in a 4231 and you’re a winner.
It frustrated me in my matches that there would be like 10 votes against without a single reason, but then the opposition could have luis Ronaldo. Ah right then, no tactics or anything needed, Ronaldo is goat.
It’s also funny that I’ve used Godin and zito in a newb draft and got ripped for it as they wouldn’t be strong enough to stop the greatest, yet in the mains I see them being used and talked up a lot.
I think to win a draft, the best tactics is not to go with who you would like and think would work together but just study the players that the voters take a liking to and just cram them in a 4231.
Agree that it can be frustrating when people don't express why they have voted the way they have done. But sometimes people are busy and don't have the time to post.
In terms of 'vote-winning tactics', in the past I've always used Diego in a 3-5-2, but this is the first time he's had an outing for me, from memory, in a 4-2-3-1. But please feel free to expand on who you feel is crammed in here. There's a lot of thought gone into the combination of players:
- Maradona and the ultimate penalty box reference point in Muller
- Maradona as the principal creator - no jostling for the ball with other great no10s or 9.5s.
- Giggs and Lato out wide - two selfless team players who wouldn't contest for primacy with Diego and offer him excellent play-stretching outlets.
- Zito and Falcao - a natural central midfield partnership, not dissimilar to Zito and Didi, but with Falcao a smoother team player and collaborator with creative types ahead of him as he showed with Zico and Socrates in 1982.
- The Djalma Santos and Beckenbauer axis. Djalma's natural instinctive defensive acumen and ability to tuck in perfectly placed here to allow the Kaiser to choose when to overload the midfield.
Alologies, I didn’t mean to imply you had crammed your players in, it was more attached to my general rant and I shouldn’t have used players you had used in the brackets. But it’s those kind of players that do grab the attention and that’s what I meant by it.
I thought you made a great team, just that mjj put more thought, or at least I thought he did in his tactics and how he’d play and potentially score/ stop you, and it sounded like it would work.
As I’m new to these drafts I’m just highlighting things that I’m noticing, I’m happy to be shown my thoughts on these are wrong. I’m just enjoying the ride.
Shiny names trump tactics always.
I tip Falcao to excel at exactly that. He is outstanding at that type of play and I personally think he'd have a better game than either Lothar or Netto or Sammer.
I dont think thats fair here. You have Pele and Lothar (often times by far the highest rated CM - alone in the superman tier CMs ) along with massive hipster favorites like Rummenigge and Sammer
The opposition had no tactical plan or style of play. It's very much a case of shiny names.
I just disagree there. I think you are also relying on shiny names to the same degree. Also Falcao getting massively underrated here.
For me it was actually the opposite: I thought MJJ's team was very good in terms of players, and potentially able to hold their ground against the oppo's attacking force & counter effectively. But I wasn't really convinced by his arguments about the opposition's weaknesses and his plans to exploit them.
Both teams have an equal amount of 'shiny names' , MJJ tactical plan was to isolate Santamaria while me and Gio explained several times why that wouldn't happen. There was no other plan by the opposition neither was there anything of substance with this tactic.
To be frank his full backs were not up to semi final standard, how can anyone give Panucci a free ride here? Really he's a first round player.
To be frank his full backs were not up to semi final standard, how can anyone give Panucci a free ride here? Really he's a first round player.
Anyway good game @MJJ.
Yea, Panucci was a really underwhelming pick, for 30 mn no less. I wouldn't have picked him for 20 mn too in an all time draft.
I was surprised you didn't bring the 7-1 Roma game up
Here is the thing.. In general 4-2-3-1 is currently viewed the most balanced formation so it’s likely to win more votes.. When I started playing these drafts about a year back 3-5-2 was the formation to win drafts..
Cramming Goats into a formation often gets questioned (see George Best being questioned in the other semi final).. Often what you need to see is how well does a manager sell his/her team
Coming to the match specifically, few things that made me vote for 2mufc/gio
1) MJJ has Sammer as a defensive midfielder which i don't think is his best position. In my opinion, he is better as a sweeper which is where he gave his best performances. He can still be effective at DM but much more suited to Sweeper
2) Demayenko can definitely play right back but again i don't think you get 100% of him in that position. Panucci is also not the greatest fullback in an all time draft semi final
3) MJJ does have a better complimentary partnership in Stam + McGrath both of whom i rate better than Santamaria but other than that i felt 2mufc/gio have a slightly better team.
You should check out some of the older finals. Its definitely not that simply with formations. I lost a final with Maradona in a 4231 (With R9 and Messi) because Didi (who dominated a World Cup in a 424) was somehow considered defensively suspect in a 4231
In general though the best formations to win a Final will probably be 433, 352, 4231 just because those formations have dominated the last 25 years of football (although 442 can still win occasionally because everyone has a soft spot for that formation). You win a R1 match with any formation though although WM is probably the hardest (because its just the worst tactic in real life
)I also don't think it's a fair criticism that we've just 'crammed GOATs into a 4231' and hoped for the best. For example we could have bought Dzajic instead of Giggs who is probably rated as a top 2 left winger on here but we didn't as we thought Giggs was the better fit with Diego with his graft and would be more than happy playing secondary to him, the same goes for Lato and that's why he's still in the team.
I am but I am utilising a tactical system with those names not beckenbauer will beckenbauer.
For me personally I am feeling the synergy of a 4231 with Lato, Giggs, Falcao than I am a diamond with Pele-Lothar-Netto-Sammer. I just don't think your tactic gets the best out of Pele or Lothar or Sammer even and was slightly too focused on trying to shut down Maradona which for me opened up Lato to have a MotM performance against Panucci (whom I think is over his head at this level). I can appreciate you feel different but that's just how I see it. I have to get stuff done now so cheers
For me personally I am feeling the synergy of a 4231 with Lato, Giggs, Falcao than I am a diamond with Pele-Lothar-Netto-Sammer. I just don't think your tactic gets the best out of Pele or Lothar or Sammer even and was slightly too focused on trying to shut down Maradona which for me opened up Lato to have a MotM performance against Panucci (whom I think is over his head at this level). I can appreciate you feel different but that's just how I see it. I have to get stuff done now so cheers
Yeah I am not complaining about how you see the game playing out or the justification for your vote which is valid and something that could happen.
I don’t think you are being criticised for that. I just mentioned that from my limited view of drafts that looks how it’s gone in most, and talk of tactics largely gets ignored or not put forward.
Obviously I’m new and haven’t got a massive pool to take a final conclusion from, my formations have been variations of 4222 and 424, I think I’ve seen enough that I won’t get anywhere going forward with those though.