Auction Draft QF4 : Chesterlestreet vs NoPace

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?

  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
As for further substitutions, they won't happen unless I find myself trailing as the match draws to a close.

I have several options - both for riding out a lead and for pushing for an equalizer or a winner.

If I take Valderrama off, I can play Enzo a bit deeper alongside Littbarski - with Robbo and Dunga behind 'em - in a square of sorts. In comes Rocheteau alongside Ronaldo as a second striker/ wideish forward. His blistering pace will not be appreciated by those with tired legs back there.

To ride it out/sit back and let the match die, I can send in either Petit or Popescu - again Valderrama is the one who leaves the pitch - let him sit alongside Dunga and move Robbo into a role slightly higher up the pitch.

And if I'm up by a couple of goals Rocheteau or Careca can have the last minutes for the fat boy - who has already scored a couple, you'd think.

But I see no reason to change anything at this stage. It's tight as expected. Both teams in full gear, trying to nick a precious goal. We'll see how it all pans out.
 
NoPace said:
Re: Campbell, I wanted an aggresive defender next to Hansen, who was basically a superior Pique (more of a sitter, known for his passing and great pace over long distances) and Campbell was that kind of defender, for me at least. I always thought he made less mistakes than his competitors for England (Rio, Terry, King).

These stats are always dodgy, but apparently he hit higher speeds than anyone in the Prem bar Walcott, and this is from when he was past his athletic prime: http://www.givemesport.com/191697-who-is-footballs-fastest-sprinter

The man started 35 games the season Arsenal went undefeated in the league with Kolo fecking Toure as his partner.

If Toure and Eboue hadn't completely lost the plot when defending late against Barcelona in the 2006 Champions League final, Campbell's incredible performance that game, in which he scored a goal and then defended brilliantly all game with his team down to 10 men, would be remembered as one of the great big-game performances by a defender, like Ramos 2014 CL Final will be.
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Sol was a very good defender, no question about it. If he's out of his depth here it's simply because he's up against the fat one in his pomp - supported by two of the finest tricksters these past thirty years or so. I personally think you need more than Sol and Hansen to survive 'em - but I stress again that Sol was very good indeed, one of the best in his position during his prime years, and I'd say they're well balanced too, him and Hansen.
 
Jeez, not this Xavi nonsense again. The idea that he'll be significantly less effective because he doesn't have both Iniesta and Busquets next to him is frankly ridiculous.

He's probably the best passer in this history of football - let's not allow his recent decline to cloud that.

 
antohan said:
As I said earlier, different players and you wouldn't swap them, both a better fit for the teams they are in.
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Aye, that's about right.

One might also add - as pertains to goals - something we touched on in the Cutch Vs Isotope thread: The 80s weren't a goal scorer's decade. Given that, Littbarski record is actually very good for a player who was less of an outright attacker than T. Müller has been thus far in his career.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
As for further substitutions, they won't happen unless I find myself trailing as the match draws to a close.

I have several options - both for riding out a lead and for pushing for an equalizer or a winner.

If I take Valderrama off, I can play Enzo a bit deeper alongside Littbarski - with Robbo and Dunga behind 'em - in a square of sorts. In comes Rocheteau alongside Ronaldo as a second striker/ wideish forward. His blistering pace will not be appreciated by those with tired legs back there.

To ride it out/sit back and let the match die, I can send in either Petit or Popescu - again Valderrama is the one who leaves the pitch - let him sit alongside Dunga and move Robbo into a role slightly higher up the pitch.

And if I'm up by a couple of goals Rocheteau or Careca can have the last minutes for the fat boy - who has already scored a couple, you'd think.

But I see no reason to change anything at this stage. It's tight as expected. Both teams in full gear, trying to nick a precious goal. We'll see how it all pans out.
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Very much the impression I got looking through your subs, you had options to play the game differently but this was your best setup. Bar Jorginho that is. I could see how Jorginho was more likely to be rated but the better pplayer is on the pitch now.
 
Theon said:
Jeez, not this Xavi nonsense again. The idea that he'll be significantly less effective because he doesn't have both Iniesta and Busquets next to him is frankly ridiculous.

He's probably the best passer in this history of football - let's not allow his recent decline to cloud that.

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Feck. I tried to find a "Xavi worst passes" compilation to counter that with, but one doesn't seem to exist. YouTube is a pile of shite.

Seriously, though, I've no doubt Xavi would do well in any sort of setting. It's a question of degrees, simply, in my opinion. I don't think we can simply assume that he would run the show in any kind of setting - as he did/does - for Barca, but it's not much of a point to make. He's not playing for Barca here -and whatever difference his exact role makes isn't something I'd claim as a point scored for me. He's still got Biscuits there and Vidal would hardly hamper his style, so to speak.

I agree to a - fairly - great extent with what NoPace says in his write-up. Xavi has an edge over Valderrama in terms of pure quality - but their styles are very different and their roles are not the same. Valderrama is much more of an AM than Xavi, who will need to make an impact most of the time from a deeper position. Biscuits and Dunga are on the same level for me. Robson is better than Vidal - but you'd expect me to say that, wouldn't you.

I think both midfield set-ups are good, there's not a player anywhere on either side who looks out of place. And they won't be battling it out with each other individually either - just to make that point again. It's not Biscuits versus Valderrama, Xavi against Dunga and Robbo versus Vidal - that's a nonsensical way of interpreting what goes on in a match of football. Not accusing anyone here of thinking that it is - but it's a common thing to be brought up in drafts.
 
antohan said:
Very much the impression I got looking through your subs, you had options to play the game differently but this was your best setup. Bar Jorginho that is. I could see how Jorginho was more likely to be rated but the better pplayer is on the pitch now.
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Aye, sirrah. I think so too. I feel a little dirty about the Jorginho business, actually. Every other player in my squad is someone I personally like - which is partly the reason I went for them in the first place. Serginho is the clear exception to that rule - whether people rate him or not. I went a bit plastic there, I'm afraid. But I'll make up for it. If I go through Jorginho will be cleaning boots in preparation for the Semi.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Aye, that's about right.

One might also add - as pertains to goals - something we touched on in the Cutch Vs Isotope thread: The 80s weren't a goal scorer's decade. Given that, Littbarski record is actually very good for a player who was less of an outright attacker than T. Müller has been thus far in his career.
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I couldn't be arsed to get into that really. It makes zero sense to even begin to try compare records for Littbarski pretty much carrying FC Koln with Muller at a serial all-conquering Bayern Munchen.

Miroslav Klose also has a much better record than Karl-Heinz Rummenigge for Germany, so what?
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Aye, sirrah. I think so too. I feel a little dirty about the Jorginho business, actually. Every other player in my squad is someone I personally like - which is partly the reason I went for them in the first place. Serginho is the clear exception to that rule - whether people rate him or not. I went a bit plastic there, I'm afraid. But I'll make up for it. If I go through Jorginho will be cleaning boots in preparation for the Semi.
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You can't even remember his fecking name :lol:
 
Manchester United - Barcelona, 1984:



I highly recommend watching the whole match if you can find it somewhere - but especially the second of Robbo's goals here is very typical of him.

EDIT I was going to hail McGrath's performance too, but he didn't play - goes to show what my memory is worth. I can practically see him on the pitch - but he didn't feature in that match. Injured, I reckon. He played against Juve in the Semi, though, I know that for a fact - so I suppose I just wished him into that famous Barca match too.

Which means that McGrath only played Maradona once - namely in an exhibition match for the Centenary of the league. Great quote from McGrath on Diego here:

I played against Diego Maradona for the rest of the world in an exhibition match to celebrate the centenary of the English League. That was the one time where I wanted to come off the pitch and take a seat in the stand just to watch a player. Some of things he was doing with the ball were just mesmerising. I remember people firing balls in at him and he could just kill it with his toe.
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Theon said:
Jeez, not this Xavi nonsense again. The idea that he'll be significantly less effective because he doesn't have both Iniesta and Busquets next to him is frankly ridiculous.

He's probably the best passer in this history of football - let's not allow his recent decline to cloud that.

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Xavi isn't the best passer in the history of football... riquelme, laudrup, platini, maradona were better, the likes of guardiola, valeron, de la pena, rui costa, pirlo, hagi, veron, alonso were on at the same level as xavi too. xavi was the most supportive player in history, sure, almost no one can offer the teamwork and movement he can provide, and xavi blends that with extremely underrated dribbling control, which was just flawless at his best. It's just a small difference in my opinion, but an exaggeration that should be refuted. Xavi wasn't the best passer in history. I agree with you other then that detail though. It's stupid to say Xavi won't be effective without iniesta or busquets. He does have busquets really, and busquets was always more important to xavi then iniesta in my opinion.
 
Last instance of boasting about my players for now: it turns out Ian Rush has two of my boys in his all time XI:

On McGrath:

I had a miserable scoring record against Man United and that was all down to Paul. Quick, strong and great in the air, he could play too but his tackling stood out. The hardest defender I faced, but fair.
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On Cabrini:

His legs were starting to go when I played with him but what a player. Got forward to use his left peg to perfection and a fine defender too. Italian defenders are known for their cynicism but he had the knack of getting between you and the ball down to an art to win free-kicks.
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Right, I'm off to get a couple of hours' sleep - I'm working on an extremely dull project I need to finish tomorrow. Will drop by again to see how things have progressed, of course.
 
Malva said:
Xavi isn't the best passer in the history of football... riquelme, laudrup, platini, maradona were better, the likes of guardiola, valeron, de la pena, rui costa, pirlo, hagi, veron, alonso were on at the same level as xavi too. xavi was the most supportive player in history, sure, almost no one can offer the teamwork and movement he can provide, and xavi blends that with extremely underrated dribbling control, which was just flawless at his best. It's just a small difference in my opinion, but an exaggeration that should be refuted. Xavi wasn't the best passer in history. I agree with you other then that detail though. It's stupid to say Xavi won't be effective without iniesta or busquets. He does have busquets really, and busquets was always more important to xavi then iniesta in my opinion.
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I suppose this is responding to some rambling post from Theon. I never said Xavi wouldn't be effective, I asked at the outset for clarification on what the gameplan was as Müller, Vidal and Suárez didn't strike me as tiki-taka. Indeed, it wasn't meant to be tiki-taka. No problem with that, I think it suits NoPace better to be playing the way he laid out.

All I said then was:
1. That in a more direct game I really rated what Busquets' passing from deep could offer and that he would likely have an even better game than Xavi. That I could see Valderrama letting him do his own thing while he went about business in his own particular -and pretty darned brilliant- way.

2. That with this not being tiki-taka Dunga would be far more comfortable and while Xavi would still be a very good player, he wouldn't produce the sort of bamboozling performance he could at his peak, and his peak was at the very centre of that system, not direct football. I just think Dunga will be far more comfortable against Xavi in a direct system than having those mental midgets passing the ball around him, he would lose it, completely.

So explain to me what is stupid about either of those statements. The only hyperbole here is Xavi being the best passer in history, which he clearly isn't.
 
We have two excellent teams lined up here, and it's no surprise that it's tied at this moment.

I really like how both teams are set up. NoPace has a team that can deal with many situations well and players who complement each other well, too. Chester's team is filled with individual greatness in about all positions and players who can win games on their own.

The midfield battle in itself is perfectly even. Honestly, there's no way I can say one's better than the other. The attacking setups are very fluid, so both teams' attacking players will be dangerous to the other's defences.

Roberto Carlos will have lots of joy on his left side, for me. Given that Suarez will definitely keep Beszonov occupied with his movement and skill, Roberto Carlos will be free to wreak havoc down that left side.

Still, I wonder how much of a tough time Xavi will have with Robson always hunting him down and barely giving him time on the ball. Likewise for Valderrama with Vidal hunting him down. Both have shown that they can keep the ball when under pressure. However, can they really shake off Robson/Vidal (who aren't just gorillas running around the pitch)?

One thing that irks me though is Suarez. Sure, he's world class and one of the top 5 attacking players in the world right now, but how often has he dealt with very strong defensive players and great defensive setups? For me, not that much. Even Man. Utd. have kept him quiet in all but his first match against us. Don't get me wrong, Suarez is an absolutely amazing player. However, I feel that Chester's defence can keep him quiet even with Messi, Muller, and Vidal running at the defenders. This is where Roberto Carlos could play a key role for NoPace's team, IMO.
 
MF battle looks even until you consider Messi dropping in as a false 9. That would be a bit too much for Dunga assisted by Robson to handle with Xavi and Vidal already there. Some like Mcgrath can follow him out but that would suit noPace's game better allowing more space for either of Messi or Xavi to find Muller/Suarez in.
 
crappycraperson said:
MF battle looks even until you consider Messi dropping in as a false 9. That would be a bit too much for Dunga assisted by Robson to handle with Xavi and Vidal already there. Some like Mcgrath can follow him out but that would suit noPace's game better allowing more space for either of Messi or Xavi to find Muller/Suarez in.
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Buchwald should follow Messi in my opinion. He would be comfortable defending against him in midfield and I can see Cabrini, McGrath and Bezsonov keeping Müller and Suarez quiet. I guess there's a goal in there for NoPace, but can't see him scoring twice that way. I think NoPace's defense will struggle more, his players are less suited to defend against Chesterle's attackers.
 
Balu said:
Buchwald should follow Messi in my opinion. He would be comfortable defending against him in midfield and I can see Cabrini, McGrath and Bezsonov keeping Müller and Suarez quiet. I guess there's a goal in there for NoPace, but can't see him scoring twice that way. I think NoPace's defense will struggle more, his players are less suited to defend against Chesterle's attackers.
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That's a good point. Hansen and Sol look likely to concede a penalty against Ronaldo. The key for noPace as mazhar put it would be if he would be willing to commit Carlos forward. If his MF with the aid of Messi can control the match, which I think it would, then he can take that risk. It could then be about a 20-30 min blitz where they try to score a couple of goals and then fall back a bit to defend.
 
antohan said:
I do like the Bessonov inclusion though. I don't know what it is with Jorginho but he never impressed me, maybe because I made up my mind on him when he was still a midfielder. Both fullbacks will make a contribution bringing the ball forward, Chesterle is right that Dunga wasn't too bad in his passing, then there's Robbo... and suddenly Littbarski, Valderrama or Enzo getting the ball is a very real possibility.

Those three could play ball man, you are talking about the best Colombian ever, arguably the best Uruguayan (certainly the best at making something happen against the run of play), and Littbarski who was so good he kept me watching Bundesliga for years even when I had long switched to Serie A, but if Koln was playing, I was sure watching. Magical player. And the man receiving all that service is O Fenómeno. feck me, I've made up my mind.
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I think you are fairly harsh on him to say the least, but you do have a great point about him being more of a RWB specialist than a RB. Still a bloody brilliant full-back mind, but of course not quite as good. As a RWB I wouldn't have many, if any non-tp rated full-backs ahead of him - as a full-back he falls down a bit but he is far from a liability. If you use his attacking prowess in the right way and have a defensive LB, and a supporting RM in the defense, I don't see why he'd be much worse than as a RWB.

Just not the defender you'd ever field to go out and defend his flank alone against top wingers.
 
I reckon Carlos could have a big say going forward in this game. Dani Alves formed a great partneship with Messi, in fact I think at their peak it was Alves who gave Messi more assists than anyone else, and can see Carlos being a great threat in linking up with the attack here.

Very tough to call, will review the game one more time to see if I can find an edge somewhere. Leo on one side, Fenomeno on the other. :(
 
Malva said:
Xavi isn't the best passer in the history of football... riquelme, laudrup, platini, maradona were better, the likes of guardiola, valeron, de la pena, rui costa, pirlo, hagi, veron, alonso were on at the same level as xavi too. xavi was the most supportive player in history, sure, almost no one can offer the teamwork and movement he can provide, and xavi blends that with extremely underrated dribbling control, which was just flawless at his best. It's just a small difference in my opinion, but an exaggeration that should be refuted. Xavi wasn't the best passer in history. I agree with you other then that detail though. It's stupid to say Xavi won't be effective without iniesta or busquets. He does have busquets really, and busquets was always more important to xavi then iniesta in my opinion.
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I said 'probably', so I don't think its definitive and it never is with these things. Maybe I should have said 'arguably' - but the point really is that if someone said that he was the best passer, I wouldn't say they were wrong.

Certainly not to the extent you have - disagree with well over half of those names. Alonso, Veron, Rui Costa.. Nope. Personally I think that is extremely harsh. On some of the others - I absolutely love Pirlo, probably more than most on here, but he wasn't a better passer than Xavi.

His game was more direct and when it came to raking 40 yard passes over the top or out to the flanks, then possibly he had a very slight edge (as may have Scholes). But at 1. short to medium distances Xavi was significantly better than both, 2. At playing penetrative through balls he was better than both.

Laudrup, Platini and Diego have fair claims - and if someone said any of those were the best, I wouldn't say they were wrong the way you have. It depends what you want from a passer and what you judge them on, when it came to short-medium passes and controlling the tempo he was better than all of them. Xavi is not the most penetrative player - different roles - so if that is what you value then no doubt he wouldn't be your best.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Seriously, though, I've no doubt Xavi would do well in any sort of setting. It's a question of degrees, simply, in my opinion. I don't think we can simply assume that he would run the show in any kind of setting - as he did/does - for Barca, but it's not much of a point to make. He's not playing for Barca here -and whatever difference his exact role makes isn't something I'd claim as a point scored for me. He's still got Biscuits there and Vidal would hardly hamper his style, so to speak.
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Agree with the rest - Robson > Vidal of course, though it did appear that I rate the latter higher than others in these drafts.

On Xavi - I just don't like the idea that he needs to play tika taka in order to have a great game or dominate the match. I know you didn't say it, but it's repeatedly been said before by some people. Xavi's dominance of the 15 yard pass and retention of possession gets unfairly portrayed as meaning that is 1. All he can really do, 2. that it's dependant on having complimentary partners with which to do it with i.e. 'no Busquets or Iniesta' is a problem.

Two different points but both relevant and wrong, for me. He doesn't need to have possession players around him in order to monopolise the ball, it would make it easier for him and without others to play that way with I doubt we would see 75% statistics, but the likes of Scholes and Pirlo managed to control the play without tika taka partners - and Xavi is a better passer than both of them.

I don't see any reason why Xavi could not play a similar way to Scholes, for example. The way Scholes would play around with the ball in midfield and hit three or four short passes, before looking up and pinging it out to Giggs could easily be replicated by Xavi. I don't see any reason why he would struggle with 1. a more direct game, or why 2. playing more direct would make his shorter passes redundant.

A more direct Xavi sounds fantastic - I strongly dislike tika taka so if Xavi was instructed to play more through balls it's an improvement IMO. And as I've said, directing him to play more progressive passes at times doesn't mean he won't also dominate in those short exchanges or look to keep things ticking over.
 
Malva said:
Xavi isn't the best passer in the history of football... riquelme, laudrup, platini, maradona were better, the likes of guardiola, valeron, de la pena, rui costa, pirlo, hagi, veron, alonso were on at the same level as xavi too. xavi was the most supportive player in history, sure, almost no one can offer the teamwork and movement he can provide, and xavi blends that with extremely underrated dribbling control, which was just flawless at his best. It's just a small difference in my opinion, but an exaggeration that should be refuted. Xavi wasn't the best passer in history. I agree with you other then that detail though. It's stupid to say Xavi won't be effective without iniesta or busquets. He does have busquets really, and busquets was always more important to xavi then iniesta in my opinion.
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Whether he's the best passer ever is debatable, but there's no chance that second group of players shared Xavi's mastery of the short and long game. His brilliance at the short, give-and-go stuff is unmatched in its consistency and intensity. I think it's about how we interpret 'passing' - I see it as both the ability to play the 30-yard defence-splitting through-ball and the intricate give-and-go in midfield. There is a handful of players who match (and maybe edge) Xavi at the eye-of-the-needle-past-the-last-man stuff, but no more than that and none have such an impressive repertoire of control from deeper areas of the park.
 
Aldo said:
I reckon Carlos could have a big say going forward in this game. Dani Alves formed a great partneship with Messi, in fact I think at their peak it was Alves who gave Messi more assists than anyone else, and can see Carlos being a great threat in linking up with the attack here.

Very tough to call, will review the game one more time to see if I can find an edge somewhere. Leo on one side, Fenomeno on the other. :(
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Yep, and the Carlos's role is why I have my doubts about Sol here - even though he was a good defender. If you have R. Carlos bombing forward Alves-style, which is a pretty obvious tactical move here, you need someone more tactically flexible here, to form 3 man defense with Hansen and Bisquit or/and Amoros - basically, Barca's system. But Sol isn't capable of that and, to say, Pique, would be a much better choice even if you could argue that Campbell was a better defender. I also think that a more defensive-minded fullback would be better there instead of Amoros but didn't bring it up because he was still very solid. But it wasn't much about his quality but about his duties and, in NoPace's write-up he is described as an attacking fullback, not an Abidal-like.

NoPace is saying that he isn't playing Barca's system though. I really think that if he would to "upgrade" (or, at least, pay homage to) tiki-taka system instead of playing it's core in unfamiliar tactics, I would vote for him.
 
antohan said:
I think he is the fish out of water in this game, will be hopeless dealing with Ronaldo, let alone supporting Amoros in dealing with Francescoli, or reading how that front four of Chesterle's will try carve up that defence. By the end of the game his head will be spinning out of control. And don't get me wrong, I usually rate Campbell quite highly as a stopper but he is way out of his depth here IMO.
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As you know I rate Campbell highly, but there is something about peak Ronaldo that would tie him in all sorts of knots. Especially with such a space-creating supporting cast that would leave him exposed in one-on-one situations that Ronaldo exploited against the very best that great generation of centre-halves had to offer.
 
@Gio @Theon If that's the way you want to look at it, you might as well call busquets a better passer then xavi honestly.

i seriously think there's a disagreement here between evaluating style and quality. I'm 100% certain Pirlo can play 10 passes in 10 seconds between a teammate 4 yards away.

Calling xavi the best passer ever... that's just a gross overstatement of his passing inflated by his reputation as a midfielder, a reputation he fully deserves, but one that shouldn't be concentrated on his passing, he was many many more things then that, and if you look at it as pure passing, i flat out disagree with you Gio. Xabi alonso purely as a passer is as good as xavi ever was, and certainly was a better long passer, pirlo is one of the 2 greatest long passers ever, and has a fantastic short game, if not historically groundbreaking to the degree in which he can whip 40 yard over the top passes. I certainly believe he matches Xavi's all around pass ability. I think all of those passers i listed were better in some way then xavi in some aspect of passing, long, short, range, and had an overall passing level similar to him.
 
crappycraperson said:
MF battle looks even until you consider Messi dropping in as a false 9. That would be a bit too much for Dunga assisted by Robson to handle with Xavi and Vidal already there. Some like Mcgrath can follow him out but that would suit noPace's game better allowing more space for either of Messi or Xavi to find Muller/Suarez in.
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In fairness, you could say the same about Enzo. Francescoli was well used to having to drop to midfield and fight for possession himself, sometimes that was the only way he could start a move given the useless twats he had supporting him.
 
Gio said:
As you know I rate Campbell highly, but there is something about peak Ronaldo that would tie him in all sorts of knots. Especially with such a space-creating supporting cast that would leave him exposed in one-on-one situations that Ronaldo exploited against the very best that great generation of centre-halves had to offer.
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Aye, I knew you would understand. I have always rated Campbell in drafts but this is a nightmare scenario for him whichever way you look at it. It's not just Ronaldo but Hansen concerned with covering Carlos regularly while he himself is very much likely to be needed helping Amoros against Enzo. Then who the feck is on Fat Ron? Busquets? I can see that back four being all over the shop on a regular basis with Sol looking like a rabbit caught in headlights.
 
I get a slight feeling here that NoPace is trying to avoid the tiki-taka stamp as that brand is at the lowest reputation it will ever have. So I am going to assume he is actually playing much more tiki-taka than it has been portrayed as. I've watched a lot of Barcelona pre-Guardiola era matches lately and Xavi is nowhere near the same player outside of it. With Busquets, Messi, Suarez and Muller here I still see him playing very similar to how they played with Henry on the left - a perfect role for Suarez and Eto'os behind the defense runs will be replicated by Muller.

The only real change here is Vidal being included in the team, instead of Iniesta - even the full-backs will be similar with Carlos pulling an Alves and Amoros being more balanced.

Very difficult game to call a winner in, Chesters team is outstanding as well and for me the match will be won centrally as out wide it is very even where there are some great match-ups. Cabrini and Francescoli VS Carlos and Suarez, Littbarski and Bezso VS Muller and Amoros. Can't see either team stop the opponents wide threats and it will lead to opportunities.

With that in mind I think Messi and Ronaldo both have perfect roles here, they are both capable of setting the wide men/full-backs free out wide and they will certainly have the upper hand against their CB pairing as well.

Centrally I think both sides have slight issues as I don't see Dunga nor Vidal being perfect for the set-ups they are in.

Defensively though I don't see how Xavi-Muller-Busquets-Suarez-Messi will be anything but shadows compared to how they perform in a defense based on pressing(Running, positioning, stamina). I can't see them regain the ball very easily once they lose it here, any sort of pressing defense ought to have been mentioned. Against a really combative midfield they really need to avoid entering that sort of game to have an advantage.

@NoPace how will you defend? What is your defensive tactic?
 
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Annah, the plan defensively is to start pressing just over the half. He`s not playing Popescu, so his defense lacks passing quality, so I`ll let them bring it up then swarm when they try to get it past Dunga to deny his front 5 the ball. Messi, Suarez, Muller, Xavi, Busquets and Vidal all excel as pressers, but starting it a bit deeper gives me space behind for counters and late runners to beat his offside trap.
 
Some fair points there Annah, although I wonder whether that Barca side you allude to is worthy at this level. I had a similar issue with Cutch yesterday, I liked that Milan side, but it was by no means an all-time great (albeit a very good side) and I much preferred the older Milan, which was better represented in Iso's team.

Surprised you don't mention your pet keeper project. How would advantages in penos allow for Kahn being probably worth a goal better than Kopke?
 
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antohan said:
Some fair points there Annah, although I wonder whether that Barca side you allude to is worthy at this level. I had a similar issue with Cutch yesterday, I liked that Milan side, but it was by no means an all-time great (albeit a very good side) and I much preferred the older Milan, which was better represented in Iso's team.

Surprised you don't mention your pet keeper project. How would advantages in penos allow for Kahn being probably worth a goal better than Kopke?
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I don't think Barcelona is worth it either, in the current time-span it is hard to stick too true to one side. Of course one may argue that there should have been a pressing theme for some team at least. LVG/Sacchi/Guardiola all had some great players performing the press of some sort.

Busquets and Seedorf not being TP-rated makes it very plausible and should have been more attractive I think. Especially as LVG's Ajax side had plenty of players who aren't TP rated as well like Litmanen-Kluivert-De Boer-Overmars. I was considering it myself but I had enough from last draft, regarding discussing the press.

We should apply that GK system, would add value to them. I've read your suggestions in the thread and they would work fine, at the end I think it would just add to the penalty shoot-outs. The penalties would be portrayed as, "....Rijkaard shoots to the left, the goal-keeper stays in the middle" *next post or "spoiler"* "But the ball goes wide".
 
NoPace said:
Annah, the plan defensively is to start pressing just over the half. He`s not playing Popescu, so his defense lacks passing quality, so I`ll let them bring it up then swarm when they try to get it past Dunga to deny his front 5 the ball. Messi, Suarez, Muller, Xavi, Busquets and Vidal all excel as pressers, but starting it a bit deeper gives me space behind for counters and late runners to beat his offside trap.
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Alright, so when you loose possession they all run towards their own half before initiating any sort of press or do they start a press to make it hard for the opponents to counter?
 
Annahnomoss said:
Alright, so when you loose possession they all run towards their own half before initiating any sort of press or do they start a press to make it hard for the opponents to counter?
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Press hard when we lose it, wherever we are. If they can complete a few passes, then back off. Typical press, like the one Liverpool used often this year.

Sit off when they have a chance to build from the back, from a goal kick.
 
antohan said:
In fairness, you could say the same about Enzo. Francescoli was well used to having to drop to midfield and fight for possession himself, sometimes that was the only way he could start a move given the useless twats he had supporting him.
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Yes - and Littbarski...well he is already IN midfield, and he's naturally inclined to fight for possession: he did that all the time, a long time before "pressing" became a buzzword. Look at the highlight clips of his dribbling: he's hell to deal with, always on the run, always looking to get involved.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Yes - and Littbarski...well he is already IN midfield, and he's naturally inclined to fight for possession: he did that all the time, a long time before "pressing" became a buzzword. Look at the highlight clips of his dribbling: he's hell to deal with, always on the run, always looking to get involved.
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Yeah, I avoided mentioning him as it would lead to a Littbarski vs. Müller debate when, in fact, Müller doesn't actually do that much defensive work. Workrate and defensive work are different things of course, but I was surprised to see some stats which were quite telling about his whole space-explorer thing: instead of getting involved in defence he would primarily move and position himself to take advantage if/when the ball was recovered. Much of his space exploration actually takes place when his team doesn't even have the ball. It was quite an interesting piece of analysis actually but I have bugger all idea where I read it.

I wouldn't argue he doesn't have it in him if needed though, so better left on the side before we have another raging debate based on misinterpreting what people are actually saying.
 
Littbarski was pretty much the main reason why I couldn't see Carlos being a big influence here, he wouldn't leave Bezsonov 1vs2 against Carlos and Suarez in this game and with Ronaldo and Francescoli being already a huge threat on the counter, there's no need for Littbarski to stay upfront.


Congrats Chesterle, didn't expect you to go through, especially not after NoPace completely destroyed Pedro and me in the previous round. Great game.
 
Balu said:
Littbarski was pretty much the main reason why I couldn't see Carlos being a big influence here, he wouldn't leave Bezsonov 1vs2 against Carlos and Suarez in this game and with Ronaldo and Francescoli being already a huge threat on the counter, there's no need for Littbarski to stay upfront.


Congrats Chesterle, didn't expect you to go through, especially not after NoPace completely destroyed Pedro and me in the previous round. Great game.
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Thanks, man - I didn't expect to go through either, truth be told.
 
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