Auction Draft QF : EAP vs. Don Alfredo/Enigma

Who will win this match


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
I'd also like to add how his wingers will provide no defensive cover creating lots of space for our forwards. Neither Best nor, Matthews were known for tracking back and their defensive contribution. He's trying to depict the game as a static one, but in transitions he's lacking both in central midfield and at the flanks!

Again nonsense. So having a Garrincha or Figo is a liability to the team? :rolleyes: What defensive output will Rivaldo provide?

1. Their job is to terrorize your fullbacks not provide defensive work.
2. Having proper wingers means Sagnol/Bossis don't have to extend themselves which mean no support needed.
3. Teams have been successful in real life featuring Best/Matthews and not facing any 'no defensive workrate' problems.

This is a very bizarre claim to make against GOAT wingers.
 
Again nonsense. So having a Garrincha or Figo is a liability to the team? :rolleyes: What defensive output will Rivaldo provide?

1. Their job is to terrorize your fullbacks not provide defensive work.
2. Having proper wingers means Sagnol/Bossis don't have to extend themselves which mean no support needed.
3. Teams have been successful in real life featuring Best/Matthews and not facing any 'no defensive workrate' problems.

This is a very bizarre claim to make against GOAT wingers.
Garrincha is an absolute liability in defence. His role is pure attacking one. Figo is worlds apart from Garrincha stylistically, but it's not a surprise coming out of you, considering you aren't really familiar with other player styles and claim nonsense like it's a fact. :rolleyes:

Will Best and Matthews track the full backs? Who will defend the flanks when we have 70% of the possession?

So no support is needed for Bossis to be doubled by Alves and Simonsen? Who buys that crap?
 
despite we will control most of the game
when we have 70% of the possession?

Please provide some backing to this claim. Just by having Xaviesta (and not playing tiki taka too) you think you'll have control? Surely you just pulled this out of thin air?

You have no protection for your full backs on the flanks, no game plan of how you are defending against our attack, just presenting some fantasy matchups like the game is isolated in 1 vs 1's...

Neither Rivaldo nor Simonsen are traditional wingers. They won't stretch my defence...but rather would cut in and occupy a already crowded area. I don't see any reason why fullbacks need support.
 
Please provide some backing to this claim. Just by having Xaviesta (and not playing tiki taka too) you think you'll have control? Surely you just pulled this out of thin air?



Neither Rivaldo nor Simonsen are traditional wingers. They won't stretch my defence...but rather would cut in and occupy a already crowded area. I don't see any reason why fullbacks need support.

So you will dominate possession ? Can you provide backup to that wild claim? Matthews and Best will press high to regain possession? Picchi would press high to narrow the pitch?

Barcelona played without traditional wingers and dominated football for nearly a decade, is that something you need backing up as well?

In fact Abidal, Dani Alves, Iniesta, Xavi were pivotal figures in that, isn't that true?

You are claiming that your full backs will be left unprotected and our attackers will just go inside like idiots and not looking for voids? Even Iniesta played as a winger on both sides. Possession sides have players that are pretty comfortable going wide. Iniesta is like that, Simonsen, Rivaldo, Cruyff - all are.
 
With respect to EAP, I really think he could do with a B2B alongside Mackay or Blanchflower. Like with Stiles and Xabi there seems to be a big gap between them and Charlton. So Charlton could be forced deeper leaving the front three without the central guile to create chances.

Wasn't Charlton at his best coming from the deep, both breaking play and then spreading passes and bombarding the opposition?
He certainly isn't your regular number 10 or will act like one (unless I missed some EAP instructions), so I expect him more in midfield role then upfront and him coming from behind at full speed, like Best and Matthews when EAP grabs the ball is something which will be hard to contain.

So close and almost impossible to seperate. I'm probably one of the rare here who have a bit of trouble and small doubts with dynamics of peak Cruyff, along with Xavi and Iniesta when they are in possession. Might be fully wrong, will follow the discussion.
 
So you will dominate possession ? Can you provide backup to that wild claim?

When have I claimed that? I was only disputing your claim that you'll have possession. See below my thoughts on possession.

Possession will be split equally this match.

Barcelona played without traditional wingers and dominated football for nearly a decade, is that something you need backing up as well?

I have no problems with non-traditional wingers. Just pointing out a cutting in winger is more likely to face my DMs/CBs rather than my FBs.

ou are claiming that your full backs will be left unprotected

I have absolutely no idea where this "FBs need protection" line of thought comes from. They are defenders and are expected to cope up with the oppositions.

When you have Alves bombing up, I have Best there to spring a counter. Simple as.
 
Wasn't Charlton at his best coming from the deep, both breaking play and then spreading passes and bombarding the opposition?
He certainly isn't your regular number 10 or will act like one (unless I missed some EAP instructions), so I expect him more in midfield role then upfront and him coming from behind at full speed, like Best and Matthews when EAP has the ball is something which will be hard to contain.

So close and almost impossible to seperate. I'm probably one of the rare ones who have a bit of trouble and small doubts with dynamics of peak Cruyff, along with Xavi and Iniesta when they are in possession. Might be fully wrong, will follow the discussion.
You are missing them, cause there aren't any. Just isolated 1 vs 1's that work in his favor it seems.

His plan is to count all the goals United's trio scored together despite the fact Sir Bobby playing as an inside forward or a winger even before Law got at United and scoring over half of his goals before they entered the pitch together...
 
I'm probably one of the rare here who have a bit of trouble and small doubts with dynamics of peak Cruyff, along with Xavi and Iniesta when they are in possession.

I've been banging about this all game. Cruyff excelled in direct play with movement of players, whilst the Xaviesta excelled in possession play with movement of ball. Just throwing them together and callin it a hybrid tactics won't really work well at all.

Neither of his fullbacks can cope with my wingers. The gap is so wide and undeniable. It'll destabilize his entire line pulling CBs out wide for support...which will be a disaster with Law lurking there.
 
When have I claimed that? I was only disputing your claim that you'll have possession. See below my thoughts on possession.
Except they want. How many teams split possession against Xavi and Iniesta led Barca/Spain teams in their pump?

You don't have the dynamic players to regain possession neither to press us into mistake. Might I remind you that our lads are one of the best at retaining the ball and keeping possession. Yours - ain't.


I have no problems with non-traditional wingers. Just pointing out a cutting in winger is more likely to face my DMs/CBs rather than my FBs.

Yet Barcelona team never played with traditional wingers, yet you seem to have problems with it and thinking your full backs won't be exposed. Look like teams defended against Barca, were their full backs exposed in the way you are setting up here?

I have absolutely no idea where this "FBs need protection" line of thought comes from. They are defenders and are expected to cope up with the oppositions.

When you have Alves bombing up, I have Best there to spring a counter. Simple as.

Here's the thing, when Best and Matthews are around the center circle and Abidal/Dani Alves push up your full backs will be 1 vs 2. If a midfielder comes in to help you leave gaps in the middle.
 
Don't have access to YT at work, so have to do with GIFs:

Charlton making runs from the deep:

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I've been banging about this all game. Cruyff excelled in direct play with movement of players, whilst the Xaviesta excelled in possession play with movement of ball. Just throwing them together and callin it a hybrid tactics won't really work well at all.

Neither of his fullbacks can cope with my wingers. The gap is so wide and undeniable. It'll destabilize his entire line pulling CBs out wide for support...which will be a disaster with Law lurking there.
They don't have to on permanent basis as you don't have the ball. You'll be chasing shadows all game.

Neither your midfielders have the energy (apart from Sir Bobby who is higher up) to keep shutting the alleys, nor your defence can hold fort with 3 man disadvantage, considering Law is unlikely to track back as well.

At this point I'm not even sure you have the basic idea of how to defend against those peak Barca sides.
 
Except they want. How many teams split possession against Xavi and Iniesta led Barca/Spain teams in their pump?

When United played them it was 53-47 in there favour....and that was a shit midfield we had. Not a wild 70% like you claim.

Here's the thing, when Best and Matthews are around the center circle and Abidal/Dani Alves push up your full backs will be 1 vs 2. If a midfielder comes in to help you leave gaps in the middle.

You just claimed they would not track back. NOw you claim they'll be around in centre circle. At least be consistent in your arguements.
 


^^ Barca's pass and move explained.

then tell me those moves aren't direct and towards the goal. :lol:
 
I've been banging about this all game. Cruyff excelled in direct play with movement of players, whilst the Xaviesta excelled in possession play with movement of ball. Just throwing them together and callin it a hybrid tactics won't really work well at all.

Of course you'll bang about it, you are playing against them. :D

Although tbh, I would be more worried about their dynamics if you did allow Dogma possession, tried to frustrate them and then hit them on the counter with those 4 upfront. This looks to me (from what I read so far) more like going blow for blow which maybe isn't the best idea.
 
When United played them it was 53-47 in there favour....and that was a shit midfield we had. Not a wild 70% like you claim.



You just claimed they would not track back. NOw you claim they'll be around in centre circle. At least be consistent in your arguements.

Which game? The one that was almost decided in the 9th minute or the one we lost comprehensively 3-1? Both cases our midfield was ran over.

They won't. My guess is they will around the center, or your instructions is to keep them offside?
 
All this dominate possession, control the ball is nonsense.

1. Your team is modelled on Cruyff's 4-3-3 playing direct style per your own OP. Did the Dream Team ever having 70% possession in any match? I don't know. Provide any stats if you can.
2. Busquets (or Guardiola in Dream Team) were key players for Barcelona. You have Mauro Silva there.

Random claims with no justification.
 
All this dominate possession, control the ball is nonsense.

1. Your team is modelled on Cruyff's 4-3-3 playing direct style per your own OP. Did the Dream Team ever having 70% possession in any match? I don't know. Provide any stats if you can.
2. Busquets (or Guardiola in Dream Team) were key players for Barcelona. You have Mauro Silva there.

Random claims with no justification.

Where does it say dream team in the OP? I take it you haven't read the OP? :rolleyes: You are doing our tactics now?

2. You already proven you know very little about him, so you are going to shit on him only to win the game?
 
Check my post above. The whole "possession" is a myth. They are not playing a possession game per their own OP. And enigma confirmed they are not playing tiki-taka. At best it'll be 50-50. At worst Charlton will roast Mauro Silva.

Formation:- 4-3-3 with a false 9. Press the opponent into mistake, possession based, take control of midfield

You could've at least read the first line...

There's also a graphic in there with 4 of the players in that same graphic present..
 
so you conveniently stripped out the actual tactics to prove your point? :lol::lol:

Just for you:



Cruyff is the forefather of how Barcelona tactics evolved, the triangles are what their game is all about and this is what the "inspired" stuff is.

And we're playing 4-3-3 obviously.
 
I would assume if you add do less tiki taka and more direct passing...you aren't really playing possession, right?
You would assume wrong then.

@Enigma_87 you pull me up for saying Cruyff Dream Team and them post a video of Cruyff explaining his dream team tactics in next post. wtf? :lol:

He explains how the player help each other and how formations transition when on off the ball. The triangles is what the Barca style is all about - including tiki taka. He's just giving the Dream team as an example of how they played, but you are not really paying attention to what we have tried to explain in our OP rather than suiting every argument to your needs...
 
Of course you'll bang about it, you are playing against them. :D

Although tbh, I would be more worried about their dynamics if you did allow Dogma possession, tried to frustrate them and then hit them on the counter with those 4 upfront. This looks to me (from what I read so far) more like going blow for blow which maybe isn't the best idea.
By Edgar own account he's leaving his FB's unprotected and you are ok with that? :rolleyes:
 
As I said am still open-minded. And catching some of the debate...
aye, that's fair. Will let it die a bit and maybe Don Alfredo to take part as we're close to going in circles :)

I said my FBs don't need protection as I don't see your attackers bothering them. I don't see them being 'unprotected' at all.

then you are plain and simply wrong. I suggest you watch a bit more Barca games at their pump ;)
 
I’ve read more now and even more confused, I can’t help but look at enigmas side and like the players, when it’s broken down though, I agree the styles of xaviesta and Cruyff might not work and not keen where Rivaldo is and also bow silvas position is being questioned.
EAP, I agree with enigma and it can’t be as simple as putting each player as 1v1 and I can certainly see him as a group causing you trouble (or can I now, I don’t know any more). Best and Matthews are obviously going to cause trouble on the wings going forward too especially if they are not tracking back and Alves etc get caught I’m a counter if they are going overlapping.

Basically think EAP is relying on his 2 dms (been questioned) and his defence keeping enigma out and catching him on the break with his wingers.
I could be totally wrong and waffled a load of rubbish but I’m having trouble deciding this one.
 
I’ve read more now and even more confused, I can’t help but look at enigmas side and like the players, when it’s broken down though, I agree the styles of xaviesta and Cruyff might not work and not keen where Rivaldo is and also bow silvas position is being questioned.
EAP, I agree with enigma and it can’t be as simple as putting each player as 1v1 and I can certainly see him as a group causing you trouble (or can I now, I don’t know any more). Best and Matthews are obviously going to cause trouble on the wings going forward too especially if they are not tracking back and Alves etc get caught I’m a counter if they are going overlapping.

Basically think EAP is relying on his 2 dms (been questioned) and his defence keeping enigma out and catching him on the break with his wingers.
I could be totally wrong and waffled a load of rubbish but I’m having trouble deciding this one.

I'm not sure where that nonsense came from. Xavi was a product of Cruyff's academy:

Cruyff was manager at Barcelona between 1988 and 1996. Xavi joined the youth set-up at the Camp Nou in 1991 before rising through the club’s ranks as a pass master in the Dutchman-influenced academy.
Read more at https://www.squawka.com/en/news/xav...g-becoming-a-coach/520379#k1V70CP4qHjQYdHK.99

Pep build the entire tiki taka on Cruyff's influence on him and generally Barca's style under Xavi and Iniesta was prominent as it could be. Cruyff not gelling well there - the total footballer himself, and the one who is behind all this like a puppeteer is really, really odd claim in these parts..
 
Basically think EAP is relying on his 2 dms (been questioned) and his defence keeping enigma out and catching him on the break with his wingers.
I could be totally wrong and waffled a load of rubbish but I’m having trouble deciding this one.

I don't think anyone bar Enigma questioned them. Their credentials are obvious to anyone. They may not be Xaviesta, but are proven domestically and in Europe at top levels. Not really fancy names, but perfect for the team and this opposition. Just think of them as Spurs version of Keane and Scholes. Effective duo. See Gio and Annahnomoss quotes I posted earlier.

As to tactics, they are linked centrally though Cruyff (player vs manager) but fundamentally Total Football and Tiki Taka are not the same. I'd expect Cruyff to perform well in either, but not Xaviesta. Neeskens/van Hanegem is poles apart from Xaviesta.

Just by playing Xaviesta with Cruyff, Enigma ssumes he's get the best of poessssion and get to play direct football...which is a paradox. You either get possession or direct, never both....which is what I find fundamentally wrong in his team.
 
I don't think anyone bar Enigma questioned them. Their credentials are obvious to anyone. They may not be Xaviesta, but are proven domestically and in Europe at top levels. Not really fancy names, but perfect for the team and this opposition. Just think of them as Spurs version of Keane and Scholes. Effective duo. See Gio and Annahnomoss quotes I posted earlier.

As to tactics, they are linked centrally though Cruyff (player vs manager) but fundamentally Total Football and Tiki Taka are not the same. I'd expect Cruyff to perform well in either, but not Xaviesta. Neeskens/van Hanegem is poles apart from Xaviesta.

Just by playing Xaviesta with Cruyff, Enigma ssumes he's get the best of poessssion and get to play direct football...which is a paradox. You either get possession or direct, never both....which is what I find fundamentally wrong in his team.
No one is talking about Total football ffs, do you really read what we have described here? It's much more closer to tiki taka of course to a direct style. But why do I even bother discussing tactics with you...

You just throw some names and styles and no cohesive game plan. Battling for 50-50% possession... You'll get ripped apart in real life with ideas like that.
 
It's a shame that the 4 most critical tactical questions I have identified are overlooked
 
Well share :)

I predict one of three replies from @Ecstatic (one of my favorite posters)

A) A tonne of formation graphics to illustrate his points from random matches across history at least one of which will be a Pele match

B) An explanation filled with abstract analogies to 1980s movies, the price of Tulips in Taiwan, some unknown French player with nice hair and the cultural practices of Dutch naming conventions

C) A brief cliffhanger summary along with enigmatic hints to explain later when voting is closed

:wenger:

I'm hoping on B for this one
 
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In defense of attacking football


I only have two posts left here and I want to take a step back from the argumentative tit for tat – it’s exhausting and Enigma does it much better than me anyway. I want to have a look at the broader picture, give a more clear idea of what we are implementing here. Playing attacking football is hard. Selling attacking football is hard. That is why we got ourselves the best guys in the game, the ones who have excelled at every stage in world football and produced some of the most beautiful moments the game has ever seen.




This is just that one little guy, who also happened to gets underrated in every draft match. He is not seen as a genius play maker, he is not a number 10 with great goalscoring statistics or pace to burn. He’s not a player excelling on FIFA. He is just that little guy with a ridiculously consistent skill level, the ability to transform build-up attempts into deadly chances and the intelligence to know how and when to use tricks effectively. He’s extremely humble and never tries to embarrass the opponent, or put himself above the team. Every action he takes has the purpose of getting towards the goal, creating chances for the strikers and furthering the cause of attacking football.

I call it attacking football because that it was it is: You want to attack? You need to have the ball. You lose the ball? You better get it back quickly to start your own attack. This epitomizes the philosophy of Barcelona, what is deeply ingrained in their DNA and what has been carried along several generations and different world class managers – from Cruyff to Pep.

Is this as good as Barcelona 2009? Is this like the Dream Team? How does it fit with Total football? I say these questions are time wasting at best and lazy at worst.

This is not a Remake-Draft and the only question is if the team that we have chosen works like we intended.

I don’t want to talk about individuals all the time (I will break that promise in a second). Football is a team sport with millions of different events happening in a match and the task is to fit the team together to produce a favourable outcome of the match through collective efforts. This is not FIFA Ultimate Team, this is not the Davis Cup and this is sure as hell not some NBA skills challenge, where it is just about who is better at showing off.

Xavi and Iniesta have understood that football is a collective sport, more than any other midfielders ever.

Many fans have asked themselves the questions of why Guardiola is so good at delivering attacking football. Why does it seem like he makes players better, especially his attackers like Sane and Sterling for example? The truth is, he knows how to get the best out of them. You have to put them into favourable positions on the pitch. Positional changes, cross-field passes, quick one-twos, fast kicks from the goalkeeper, lots of variety to achieve the goal of attacking the opponent’s goal. Xavi and Iniesta have understood that as well and made everyone around them better.




We are not playing like Guardiola here, or like Cruyff’s dream team, or like Michel’s Ajax. They do not have a monopoly on attacking football. It is open to any manager or set of players who want to enjoy the game and who are courageous. Xavi and Iniesta have no fear. They go into dribblings against 4 players who are bigger, faster and stronger than them.

gettyimages-146112143.jpg

I have done the mistake of underrating Xavi in the past. I will not make this mistake again. There is not a single player who comes close to him passing the ball and setting the tempo of the match. He is not a highlight player by any means, yet he is the one who highlights the strengths of everyone around him to a large extent. This is his peak attacking contribution, additionally to being the ever-reliable dominant force in midfield:

08/09: 30 assists
09/10: 18 assists
10/11: 15 assists

Critics will say he could have only produced those numbers because of playing with a GOAT attacker, but right at that point I will charge in and start talking about the greatest European to have ever played the game, who happens to play on our side.

johan-cruyff-holland-1.gif


Cruyff loves attacking football. Whenever you watch him, you can see the urgency in his style of play. Drafters don’t have much imagination when it comes to Cruyff. When asked about the best Cruyff XI, everyone answered with some variety of Cruyff + Gullit + Neeskens. Incredibly unimaginative and boring, considering that we know how he plays with them. I suggested pairing up Cruyff with Xavi and I still think it would turn out brilliantly. When you watch Cruyff, you get the sense that he dislikes his own teammates to an extent. He was so far ahead of anyone else during his time, it was just not an even game. The most progressive footballer of the last century, the closest to tactical perfection in terms of modern tactics, until the tactical revolution of Spain / Barcelona in the late 2000s. This revolution was led by Xavi and Iniesta and they represent the peak state of the game that we know today. No one in history before them has been as consistent at winning matches as those two: 1 World Cup, 2 European Championships, 3 La Liga and 2 CL in 4 years is an insane trophy haul and the key to their team’s success was always in their superior midfield.

Why is Cruyff a great fit for Xaviesta? I will answer it differently, taking reference to the point that I made earlier about Pep setting up the team to maximize the potential of the attackers. Xavi and Iniesta know how to do it, they know what a forward wants, they have the vision to spot a runner and the grace to deliver the pass in the only small window of opportunity. They know how to create a balance for your side, to keep danger away from your goal and to support your teammates in every situation. Cruyff cares deeply about these things. He wants to be like superman at times and do everything himself, just because he wants to help his team so much to win. With these two, he knows the fate of the team is in good hands and he will trust them to orchestrate the match. At first, he will be intrigued about what they have to offer, but then he will understand that they help you understand the match better and maximize your potential and he will be the happiest man on earth to have these two guys combining with him and setting up some ridiculous team goals. He will continue to be the talisman, since Xavi and Iniesta are never selfish and have easily glued together a team of multiple stars.

Like I said before, this is not a remake draft. The question is will create Rivaldo, Cruyff, Simonsen, Alves, Xavi and Iniesta a lot of chances on a consistent basis? And the answer is yes every single time.

I know I have not said a single word about our opponent, I think Enigma has done a really good job at dishing out. I will just say the tactics to defend with just some individuals to save some energy or something or to somehow catch the imperious CB duo of Figueroa-Chumpitaz on the break seems like a tactic straight from the 1960s, the kind of tactics that Cruyff left behind in a dust when he took the world by storm. When you watch a video of Xavi, you can see him regularly splitting fully packed defences with more players than EAP is assigning here and it was just an afternoon exercise for him. He can do it against any number of players and these kind of defensive tactics (or lack of defensive plan) will not be the way to stop him.

 
Wasn't Charlton at his best coming from the deep, both breaking play and then spreading passes and bombarding the opposition?
He certainly isn't your regular number 10 or will act like one (unless I missed some EAP instructions), so I expect him more in midfield role then upfront and him coming from behind at full speed, like Best and Matthews when EAP grabs the ball is something which will be hard to contain.

Charlton is probably best described as an 8 who wants to be involved in all phases of the game. My complaint was that Blanchflower and Mackay seem both to be DMs and that's what I remember of them in all-touch compilations. In any midfield where you don't have two attackers dropping deeper, say in a 4222 you need a more mobile player in the double pivot who can get up and down. Otherwise it's Charlton doing everything whilst Mackay and Blanflower stand in front of the back 4 and Best, Law and Matthews stand up front
 
Charlton is probably best described as an 8 who wants to be involved in all phases of the game. My complaint was that Blanchflower and Mackay seem both to be DMs and that's what I remember of them in all-touch compilations. In any midfield where you don't have two attackers dropping deeper, say in a 4222 you need a more mobile player in the double pivot who can get up and down. Otherwise it's Charlton doing everything whilst Mackay and Blanflower stand in front of the back 4 and Best, Law and Matthews stand up front
You're doing them a great disservice. Think of them as a Keane-Scholes duo.

Blanchflower was excellent in running the game from the deep. He was one of the original deep lying playmakers. Excellent vision, passing ability, reading game and dictating pace...he had it all.

Mackay was a all action halfbacks like Keane or Billy Bremner. He midfield general and captain of the ship. Not just a thug, but a man who was the foil for Blanchflower in one of Spurs most successful era. Proven in Europe vs Benfica to boot.

If I was playing a 442, they'd run the game themselves. Their presence helps Charlton greatly and enhances his attack.