Well, he was not a GOAT for starters, although he was world-class at his peak. So he's marking Nordahl full-time? I'm still a bit lost on the actual spread of defensive responsibility throughout your back 5. And even then — was he good enough to completely nullify a striker of comparable (if not higher) historical stature over the 90 minutes? Briegel centrally allows you a lot more flexibility as you have 2 centre backs who can hold their own against Nordahl, which is crucial if your fullbacks and Koeman are actively participating in attack.
Auction Draft Chaos 2021 R1 - EAP vs Skizzo
- Thread starter 2mufc0
- Start date
Per our own Caf rankings, we have him as a Top 5 stopper of all time ahead of Nesta and Vierchowod. I'd say he qualifies as a positional GOAT. But either way, he's a physical match for Nordahl. Having a 3 man defence means one of CBs (most probably Koeman) can move to cover whoever has the ball and still have a proper defensive shape behind him.
I don't understand the perception that Koeman needs defensive cover, considering he's a centre back himself. And a scenario where Koeman and both my fullbacks are all caught up the pitch at same time isn't really a practical.
That's a technicality as Nesta's votes were split between two categories. Plus, most of more all-rounded CBs went into the first category anyway. He's not a match to Kohler or Nesta — he quite comfortably sits in the second tier alongside the likes of Stam, McGrath, Vidic etc. Which is still very good, but not actually GOAT.
Then why did you put him in a back 5? Koeman is great for certain systems, and he's certainly among the very best centre backs to ever play the game.
This one doesn't get the best of him in attack (he only has Gullit to send his beautiful diagonal passes to and the middle is insanely crowded as it is) and doesn't get the best of him in defense, with a quite defensive set up & a tough number 9 operating in his zone, while he was always better at preventing the threat way beforehand rather than actually getting into duels, which he quite often lost.
He won the European Cup playing in a back 5...so why should it not fit him?
He's played in back 4, back 5 and as DM comfortably through his career.
Well with the attacking FBs and wide forwards if you have two wide forwards I would want a setup* where both full-backs can bomb on at the same time otherwise one of the wide forwards would be stuck too wide for their liking depending on the side of the attack. If Dinho was Giggs that would be fine but he isn't. Now you could send up both FBs in this setup at the same time but I think it would be a little defensively suspect.
* A bit like mine here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/2021-sheep-draft-r1-physiocrat-vs-ecstatic.461110/
It's not as if I'm tactically astute or something, but I reckon it would often be just one FB overlapping, the one near the ball? The one on the far side can still act more restrained, positioned to potentially threaten his flank but also being able to react defensively.
Even if both FBs are committed high up (which will probably happen at times) - with two CBs and two defensively sound midfielders I see many possibilities to cover. Like one DM falling back to form a back three, or one moving out to directly cover behind a FB if a potential counter threat emerges on that side.
(But again, this is not based on any real knowledge.)
Leicester and Liverpool who at times play with two full-backs who bomb on at the same time use their LCM and RCM as wide shutters like in a diamond to facilitate this.
You are right the two DMs and two CBs could cover this themselves but it does leave gaps outwide to exploit if he goes for this if the opposition can switch play easily.
I think we shouldn't hog the thread so close to the deadline tbh, let's take this to PM.
This is what I asked early in the thread, for clarification on how the responsibilities are assigned back there and it was kinda glossed over quickly without him really addressing who’s focusing where. Vogts and Forster were picking up my wide Players and Koeman was taking Nordahl (bad matchup) as well as winning the midfield battle and attacking.
It seemed like a bit of a cop out, but I wasn’t really in the mood to go hard on some of the statements made here these days
no problem in staying and discussing. Doesn’t look like anyone else is gonna be commenting or voting in here
Well, I didn't think I glossed over. Since I'm not man marking your team there will not be any one-to-one role assigned. Koeman will tackle whoever has the ball usually, leaving the CBs in coverage. For example, if Litmanen has the ball, Koeman will be moving up to meet him while Vogts and Forster play coverage.
@harms almost made me change my vote as I agree on the Koeman bit and thought of the same earlier.
Lost many a game due to his grilling in the past, EAP got lucky here
Lost many a game due to his grilling in the past, EAP got lucky here
I think going ahead, EAP should drop Giresse and shift to a 5-2-3 with two wide/inside forwards. Gullit is already readymade for that.
That should to a large extent solve the Koeman conundrum
That should to a large extent solve the Koeman conundrum
Well, the reception to my team wasn't what I expected. Looks like I have some reengineering to do. GG @Skizzo Thought I was a goner
That the 5-4-1is too defensive for him?
More utilization of his long passing and more wider options for him to pick out.
Defensively, I think the system is fine. Skizzo's team was one particular one that made it tricky for Koeman, but should not always be the case.
That makes sense
I liked the originality of it but the back five/Carre Magique blend somehow seemed a bit forced and pointless to me. Maybe it was more cosmetic than anything but a normal 5-3-2 with Gullit pushed up as a partner for Batistuta would have decongested the centre a bit and provided a bit of much-needed width, as Gullit would peel wide-right and had a wicked cross on him. You were actually one of the teams I least wanted to draw due to that aerial-monster Bati/Gullit combo but you didn't seem to utilise that or the Koeman quarter-back diagonals anywhere near as well as you could have. Similarly if @Skizzo had played Simonsen instead of Litmanen I think that could have clinched it for him.
I missed this but would probably have voted @Edgar Allan Pillow as much as I like @Skizzo team
He had Simonsen? He would’ve been perfect there (with either one of Deco/Litmanen in the middle)! I probably would’ve voted for him in that case.
As it was, I preferred Edgar’s personnel, but had way too many unanswered questions for me to vote for him.
Agree with all these points. Against that back four I reckon Batistuta needed Gullit right next to him to occupy defenders and generate some space.
What are opinions on Koeman as DM who drops back? I'm thinking similar to Barca role?
His best role is a CB going forward (akin to a more traditional Barca set up with him in Nadal’s place and Pep in Koeman’s), but he’s obviously quite comfortable in any of those.What are opinions on Koeman as DM who drops back? I'm thinking similar to Barca role?
The issue is how well is the team suited to his very unique style of play.
What are opinions on Koeman as DM who drops back? I'm thinking similar to Barca role?
Will get called out against goat AMs as usual
He probably will anyway, but that really depends on who’s playing around/in behind him.